Discussion on Cheating [merged]

[Neimenljivi]

Next time don't try cheating. You were the only one I attacked. I kept everyone else safe and sound.

~Jack

[HippyFool]

Account A was HippyFool and account B was Selina a.k.a. SkyFusion.

Now please keep in mind what you said. Don't suddenly change your opinion because of a name.

~Jack

Really? Ok I can disprove this so so easily. I can't believe this is the account you were chasing.

1) It has been previously stated that that account is my multi. After being away for 1.5 years why would I use that account, the one that is directly linked to me, when I could just create a new one that noone would ever suspect?

2) Sure it is my buddy. I asked him to spy some people...and sab one guy...in the first month of this era? I don't even think he has logged on since then. I have also asked other people to spy and sab for me, it really just depends who is online.

3) Did I really get any meaningful benefit from that account? I got way more help from other accounts than his.

[Neimenljivi]

[spoiler]

Account A
Last login: 4-04-14 04:54:46
Previous login: 4-04-14 04:30:31
Account B
Last login: 4-04-14 04:56:13
Previous login: 3-04-14 04:47:34

Account A
Last login: 6-04-14 06:17:22
Previous login: 6-04-14 05:38:18
Account B
Last login: 6-04-14 06:17:47
Previous login: 4-04-14 06:13:03

Account A
Last login: 8-04-14 01:50:02
Previous login: 8-04-14 01:13:35
Account B
Last login: 8-04-14 01:48:19
Previous login: 8-04-14 12:54:48

Account A
Last login: 8-04-14 01:50:02
Previous login: 8-04-14 01:13:35
Account B
Last login: 8-04-14 01:48:19
Previous login: 8-04-14 12:54:48

~Jack[/color]

[/spoiler]


I would say that there is a 99% chance that these accounts are the same person.

And I didn't log into any of my multis last month, so it can't be me!

So everyone who said it was 99% chance was wrong because it was you in question? Please.

1) So Skyfusion, after all these years, just happened to change the name this era? When you came back? You know, not to throw anyone off track or to conceal who he was, but just.. out of the blue..

2) Right. And he was constantly keeping tabs on me, stranger and others who were your rivals. Oh and he was constantly online when you needed him. You logged off, he logged in to spy and sab for you, then logged off and you logged in again and raided those accounts?

3) Ahh.. Because sabbing and massing people who farm you doesn't benefit you at all. Nor does the fact that you don't have to build any meaningful covert in the first half of the era. Nor does the fact that Skyfusion account sabbed people so you could farm/raid them.

~Jack

[ZAC]

Account A was HippyFool and account B was Selina a.k.a. SkyFusion.

Now please keep in mind what you said. Don't suddenly change your opinion because of a name.

~Jack

That does explain why Kamikaze got massed and sabbed early in the wave by Selina. And why when I hit Hippy he said that he thought we had peace when I had peace with Selina and not him at the time.

[Master Rahl]

Account A was HippyFool and account B was Selina a.k.a. SkyFusion.

Now please keep in mind what you said. Don't suddenly change your opinion because of a name.

~Jack

That does explain why Kamikaze got massed and sabbed early in the wave by Selina. And why when I hit Hippy he said that he thought we had peace when I had peace with Selina and not him at the time.

fail

[HippyFool]

1) So Skyfusion, after all these years, just happened to change the name this era? When you came back? You know, not to throw anyone off track or to conceal who he was, but just.. out of the blue..

2) Right. And he was constantly keeping tabs on me, stranger and others who were your rivals. Oh and he was constantly online when you needed him. You logged off, he logged in to spy and sab for you, then logged off and you logged in again and raided those accounts?

3) Ahh.. Because sabbing and massing people who farm you doesn't benefit you at all. Nor does the fact that you don't have to build any meaningful covert in the first half of the era. Nor does the fact that Skyfusion account sabbed people so you could farm/raid them.

~Jack[/color]

This is the last I am going to say on the matter. I am not going to bother to argue with you, I have already been deemed innocent by the admins.

1) I am offended that you think I am so stupid that I would think changing an account name even slightly throws anyone off the trail. Everyone knows you just look up an ID. Seriously it would be just as easy for me to make a new account, but I didn't do that because I don't have multiple accounts and I had to get my friend to help me out.

2) Let's not get too carried away here. He sabbed one single practically innactive person for me and did some spying for me months ago. He got busy later in the wave and couldn't help me out anymore. Where was my magical multi both times I got massed and had no covert?

Also how can it be that I logged off and he logged on? This cannot be what the logs say because this did not happen. Sometimes we were farming at the same damn time!

[Caprila]

Just out of interest.

You say these accounts were monitored carefully for months, but not who by.

Who provided the intel of the account log in times?

[Ronon Dex]

Just out of interest.

You say these accounts were monitored carefully for months, but not who by.

Who provided the intel of the account log in times?

Game cops

[bebita]

Just out of interest.

You say these accounts were monitored carefully for months, but not who by.

Who provided the intel of the account log in times?

all started over 2 years ago when bebita was playing active and saw the conection between these 2 accounts
seems and others notice there is something fishy
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=176288&p=2233534&h ... n#p2233534

[Caprila]

Just out of interest.

You say these accounts were monitored carefully for months, but not who by.

Who provided the intel of the account log in times?

Game cops

I see.

Forgive if I'm wrong, but aren't Gamecops given the ability to see inside information (such as log out times) to aid Admin? Not to hand that information out to active players so they can mass them

Then again, this era has been largely a QQ fest from start to finish. I've seen more reports for this section in the last few weeks, than the entire year.

Hopefully the next era will be a more pleasant one, for all involved.

[Crixus]

I cannot comment on the current situation at this present moment in time but I can say that Support was fully aware we were liaising with Jack in regards to the matter due to his experience as being game cop prior to myself and Arty.
He was providing us with a valuable third party independent opinion on our findings as we wanted to know what sort of view some one who had previously worked the role as Gc held in relation to our discoveries and observations before we escalated them to the admin.
We like to be thorough and we like to triple check things to make sure they are plausible and valid before taking such action.

No other individual was privy to any other aspect of information relating to the case and normally Gc business is not discussed with anybody outside of Gc, it is only due to Jack's status as our predecessor that his most appreciated advise was sought.

Crixus

[Neimenljivi]

ZAC - exactly. And I bet there were a lot more "coincidences" such like this one throughout the years.

Hippy - you were not deemed innocent by the admins. Just because you are not banned doesn't mean you are innocent. Heck, last era bug abusers which admins agreed they were abusing bugs and thus cheated weren't dealt with. Not a ban, nothing taken away, nothing. You aren't banned due to technicalities. You saying the Selina a.k.a. Skyfusion account wasn't active after the first month of the era is a blatant lie since the logs I've posted show that it was active a month before the era ended. You also lie that Selina sabbed one guy, when in fact multiple people who you wanted to see sabbed, one reason or another, were sabbed. Same goes for massing. Heck, one of the accounts you raided after Selina account sabbed them was raided in April. Less than a month before the era ended, not less than a month after it started.
Why did you only change the name instead of creating a new account? Well if you created a new account it would have started with practically 0 army size and 0 ATs. Using an account which you thought no one would be able to prove is your multi, which has already accumulated enough army size and enough ATs to help you straight away just seems a faster and more viable solution.
As for where it was both times after you've been massed.. I don't know, getting cold feet from seeing the threads about cheaters that resemble what you've been doing?
I never said you always logged off and Selina logged in. Don't put words in my mouth. Funny coincidence, again, every time I saw you farming with both accounts - it was first one account farming people, then the other account, then (sometimes) the first one again, etc. It never crossed like legit accounts cross when farming inactives. But I am sure it was just another one out of a long line of coincidences.

Yeah bebita, I've been reading up a lot of the threads from that time during the investigation. Your posts/threads helped confirm the obvious connection between the two accounts, despite Skyfusion suddenly changing the name.

Caprila - like Crixus explained. As soon as him and Arty found enough evidence to form their opinion, they wanted to know what I made out of it. It was only due to my experience as a Game Cop. Why didn't they go to anyone else? Well, Hippy was under investigation. Goo has been inactive for a long time. So I was the only viable candidate around with enough experience. They never tried to hide the fact they talked to me regarding the matter - Juliette has been aware of this for over a month now. They told her they sought out my opinion and explained why. They didn't give me the info so I could use it to mass Hippy. Heck, he was in my own alliance, I could easily try to hide the fact he's been cheating due to our previous relationship. Crixus could easily stop watching Hippy like a hawk, as Crixus was also in Divine. But both of us are fair in these matters and put our own opinion about a player under investigation aside and look at facts, not at our relationship with said player. So don't try to pull the bias card out as us investigating Hippy and, once we got enough evidence, doing something about it was not beneficial at all for us, but rather the opposite. Me being shown the information in no way aided me massing Hippy - he was online while I was massing him.
As for this era being a QQ fest, well lets see - admins who don't give a **Filtered** about cheaters, admins who enforce censorship on the forums.. Hmm, I can't see anything wrong with this, can you?

To reply to older posts which I haven't had the time to do sooner:
S1eepy - the purchase of USSs might not be an issue, but we all know that certain players within SGW community have special status and are pretty much untouchable - mostly due to spending a lot of money in the game. I am not sure how many USSs Hippy bought on Q, but it was a big number based on his bank size.
I acknowledge this is a tough decision, but his blatant disregard of everyone else's opinion regarding the matter just shows he isn't willing to listen to those of us more experienced than him. Like you also said - the definite proof is something that is unattainable. Every cheater will try to weasel his way out, saying it was a brother or a friend or whatever. No one will confess. Bar confession, every evidence is purely circumstantial. I will bring up the detective card again at this point, surely someone who has been a detective for 9 years in RL has a nose for these sort of things?
The benefit gained shows in a different form. He saved up a lot of resources by not having to worry about covert early on and by massing/sabbing other people from the other account. You can have an absolute benefit - where an account gains something illegally - or a relative benefit - where rival accounts lose something they wouldn't lose otherwise and thus are put to a disadvantage. Absolute benefit gets you banned straight away, since it's easy to spot (as it's feeding). Relative benefit, on the other hand, can benefit someone just as much, except that it's harder to spot.

Haz - where there is smoke, there is fire. Quantum is different to main. A lot different. Don't expect evidence in form of numerous trade brokers where the main account is receiving all the resources from the multi accounts or anything like that. Advantages like Hippy's, in Q, can mean the difference between ending #1 and ending out of top 5. Same as spending 200$ can make that difference. 200$ per era, that's 800$ per year. I am sure you agree with me that (even in main) an account who gets 800$ worth of resources illegally on a yearly basis is at a huge advantage compared to those who don't get any of these resources illegally.

Also a couple of interesting facts: Hippy was by far the one most interested in who I was talking about when I disclosed the fact about the cheaters. Hippy was also very interested to know whether Game Cop's GAL are in real time or if they are delayed for 3 minutes, like the GAL for other players are. I am sure his interest in this was purely academical and that he wasn't at all interested in this important piece of information to try and abuse it and be fed big time in the last 3 minutes of the era. It's not like he ever was fed big time. Ahh, wait. He was. By Selina a.k.a. Skyfusion mostly.

~Jack

[S1eepy]

. I acknowledge this is a tough decision, but his blatant disregard of everyone else's opinion regarding the matter just shows he isn't willing to listen to those of us more experienced than him.

You accept it's a tough decision, but you don't accept that HE is the one that has to make the decision.

You can have your own opinion, as can we all, and we can express this opinion freely - which we have. But Haz is the one that makes the final call, and he has to do that based on what HE believes. Not what you believe, or what I believe. You see it as disregarding your opinion because he doesn't agree with you.

When in fact he will be swayed by your opinion. It will wake him co consider the circumstances more closely than if a random new player were to make the same accusation. But Haz cannot (and should not) be expected to automatically decide the same way you have.

Like I said, and you accepted, this is a difficult decision. And any outcome is plausable. You need to accept that whatever the decision, Haz will have made the right choice as he sees it, having weighed all the evidence and possibilities.

You are allowed to disagree and to complain, but you must accept that not everyone is going to agree with your opinions - but that doesn't make their opinions wrong


This post has nothing to do with guilt or innocence - just that Haz is making the call, and I trust him to make a fair one as he sees it. I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise

[Neimenljivi]

And that is exactly why they brought me in on this, to have yet another view. That's exactly why I posted up this topic posting only the facts and not the names - to provide as many different opinions and views of this as possible. That's why the jury finds one guilty, not the judge. Haz is being the judge here.

This is not about Haz sharing my opinion, personally. It's about not banning someone because there's "only" circumstantial evidence (which is, again, the only sort of evidence one can really get). It's about not dealing with cheaters in general. Last era it was bug abusers that weren't dealt with, this era stranger and Sleepdeprived confessed they share login details and weren't banned or reprimanded and I really wonder how long this would have gone on if Sleepdeprived hadn't deleted. That's what this is about, taking care of cheaters.

~Jack

[S1eepy]

We are not a jury.

Haz has to form his opinion, based on the facts before him, and compelling arguments either way.

You presented facts to support your accusation. Those facts on their own seem damning, if the are accurate (I haven't been able to personally check). But at the end of the day, Haz is the only one who's opinion matters. He was not part of the sleepdeprived issue, or part of the bug abuse problem last era.

THIS is his first issue to deal with. Let him make a decision, and accept it, whatever it is.