What should Greece do?

[[KMA]Avenger]

@KF and deni, Ego, is a a **Filtered** on heat and i don't think we will get very far arguing back and forth, because this isn't an "i'm right your wrong issue", the way i see (cant speak for others) is like this "this is the enemy, look over here". as i said, me personally, i couldn't give a flying one for ego and pats on the back for being right, or kicks in the rear end for being wrong. so,unless someone else *looks at MEZZ* wants to wade in here, what say we agree to disagree?

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[Legendary Apophis]

I understood pretty well. Your main point is, that the debt the Greek state made is illegal and has not to be repaied by the people of Greece.

Yet that debt was voted for by the Greek parliament by letting the budget of the Greek state pass through. The Greek parliament is democratically elected by the Greek people and as in every representative democracy, it represents the interests of the voters. If you do not agree with the actions taken by your representatives, then in a democracy, the logical conseqquence would be not to elect them to represent you next time.

I do see though that you lack any real arguments in this discussion and try to bring it off topic with statements regarding how citizenship is gained and basically questioning ANY form of governemt. I can only conclude from that, that you do not have anything else to add on the topic about "What Greece should do".

A - No Elgov represents its people in a democratic manner, there isnt a single example of that on earth.

B - Voting is a huge waste of time in the majority of countries, as its the civil service/mandarins who decide what happens not the elected ministers.

C - Automatic birth/citizen registration which went out btw in most places by the latter half of the 80s, allowed countries to increase their debt which is based on the amount of taxable population you have. Which was sort of the point I was making, anyone whose birth was at registration automatically ascribed citizenship of where they were born had no choice in the matter of if they wanted all this or if they wanted to pay for this, but they have been left with all of the liability & cost of it. Normally this is an unenforcable contract (ie the contract would be null & void) where the owing party wouldnt have to pay as they had no choice in been party to the contract. This point is valid for more than the UK as I said originally, as lots of states did this & I suspect you'll find that Greece/Spain/Portugal/Italy all did this (ie those who were automatically made citizens shouldnt be made to pay for this, that was implied but clearly you failed at understanding that too, I shouldnt be surprised)

Hopefully this time it'll stick but I doubt it

A. & B. You seem to have a very pessimistic view of politics. I'm sorry to hear that.

Out Of Character:
I'm sorry to go off topic, but are you trying to say that the fact people were given citizenship due to them being born here wherever their parents were born, is a bad thing for these people and they would wish otherwise? Are we living in the same planet?
This caught my attention and I would want to see if I understood it right. Because in my country it's more like the total opposite (I know it's the only case in Europe). People come in masses to France to give birth to children and get them the french nationality to indirectly benefit from the subsidies. So it's the contrary to "being forced" to be a citizen, it's more they rush in and most of time careless of the nation history and its culture etc...
What you said must be strictly a problem for the UK, because in continental Europe, it's more what I said than what you said.

[deni]

A - No Elgov represents its people in a democratic manner, there isnt a single example of that on earth.

B - Voting is a huge waste of time in the majority of countries, as its the civil service/mandarins who decide what happens not the elected ministers.

C - Automatic birth/citizen registration which went out btw in most places by the latter half of the 80s, allowed countries to increase their debt which is based on the amount of taxable population you have. Which was sort of the point I was making, anyone whose birth was at registration automatically ascribed citizenship of where they were born had no choice in the matter of if they wanted all this or if they wanted to pay for this, but they have been left with all of the liability & cost of it. Normally this is an unenforcable contract (ie the contract would be null & void) where the owing party wouldnt have to pay as they had no choice in been party to the contract. This point is valid for more than the UK as I said originally, as lots of states did this & I suspect you'll find that Greece/Spain/Portugal/Italy all did this (ie those who were automatically made citizens shouldnt be made to pay for this, that was implied but clearly you failed at understanding that too, I shouldnt be surprised)

Hopefully this time it'll stick but I doubt it

As I said, I understood pretty well. You doubt our and any kind of government system that is not based on asking every single citizen personally when making any kind of operative decision and not doing anything if there is not a 100% agreement on a subject. It might be your "vision" of a democracy, but that, as everyone would probably agree with me, is not a feasible one as it will be unable to reach ANY kind of decision.

I understood pretty well, that you complaing about being made automatically a citizen. Most countries do offer the possibilities to give up your citizenship. You do not want to do that as you want to reap the benefits this citizenship brings - the right to stay in the UK, having a functioning infrastructure, social security, educational system, hospitals yet you do not want to pay your share for being part of the society.

Governments do not issue bonds and take on debts for no reason. They do it, because thie public obligations - aka providing security, covering basic needs, providing infrastructure etc - are costing more than the benefactors of those public services are able to pay at the moment. As I said and as you continue to deny, no debt is taken without a public consensus on its volume. While clerks can decide about the details, the maximum limits are set by the parliament in the annual budget within the limits the national laws. Thus your argument, than by voting for your representative you cannot do nothing, is plain wrong.

In the end responsibility is yours and not burdened upon you by some anonymous ministry clerks.


@KMA: What would be life without some controversy?

[MEZZANINE]

tag your it Mezz/KMA etc, good luck

*looks at MEZZ* wants to wade in here

SGW has taught me many thing........... well not many, a few things, one of the things it taught me is not to bother arguing with the ever Gorgeous Miss Denial


Looks like Greece bottled it anyway, will have to wait for the news after work but looks like there will be NO referendum, the Greek Government will fall and take all the blame while an emergency Government will step up and do whatever the EU says.

Basically the banks and bureaucrats have once again triumphed over democracy, lol democracy what a joke, we encourage countries around the world to revolt and demand it so we can sell them stuf, yet wont even give to our own people.

[[KMA]Avenger]

@KMA: What would be life without some controversy?

Nothing wrong with controversy at all!

Here's some controversy for ya...

You take the roll of the ECB, the IMF, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, the world bank, the troika (otherwise known as the Gambinos the Bonannos and the the Genovese crime family's), the Bank of England, The Federal Reserve, and everybody else that is rapping Greece (and the whole world). and i will take the roll of the Greek Govt....

All spoken with a Chicago/Italian criminal accent:
you, "Hey, Papandreou, i got some cash for ya ass!"

Spoken with a heavy Greek accent:
me as Papandreou, "Naw, i cant afford..."
you "hey, don't worry bout it! you can have the cash cheap!!"
me "WOW, you really are a buddy, thanks!"
you "hey, no problem Paps. anytime!"

Sometime later...

you "hey Paps, we need our money, no wot i'm saying?"
me "sorry man but i don't have the cash!
you "wot do you mean you don't have the cash? i want my frigging money NOW!"
tears well up in my eyes and i start sobbing, "we spent the money and don't have any to give you"
you "stop your crying or i'll shoot you in the head here and now!"
me "ok"
you, "since you can't pay i'll tell ya wot your gonna do"
me "ok!"
you, "get your ass on TV and tell the people they owe all this money and they have to pay or or..."
me "or what?"
you "or the EU wont like you any more and will drop kick you out of the Euro Zone!"
me "no please! anything but that...how will we cope without the EU telling us what we can and cannot do?"
you, "hey buddy, that's your problem capiche!?! now pay up, that means those people who can barely make ends meet, those that are behind on their mortgages, those who have lost their jobs, those who are about to loose their jobs, those whose businesses are crumbling already, those who have no food and shelter, the elderly and everyone in-between needs to have their taxes raised so you can pay us back this money we printed out of thin air and charged you for the privilege!"
me "ok, will do boss".
me on TV "my fellow Greeks, WE the politicians spent all this cash and now YOU the people have to pay it all back. that means YEARS and YEARS of debt servitude, the sell off of all our assets, islands and all our infrastructure."
the people of Greece "WT F!?!"
me "hey! GET WITH THE PROGRAM OR ELSE!"
the people of Greece "or else what?!"
me "or else the EU says they will cry and wont be friends with us and wont let us play with their balls any more"
the people of Greece "F*** YOU, F*** THE BANKS AND F*** THE EU!"


That might be somewhat dramatic...but is true.

[~Drunken Master~]

Italy is next followed by France.. Avenger can u do one for them as well... good reading

[[KMA]Avenger]

I'm not sure if Italy and France will be next. it's a toss-up between Italy, Spain, Portugal and quite possibly Ireland. but the situation is so volatile anything is possible in such a climate.

As for doing another "sketch" like that...lol that one took me close to half an hour to type. i'll pass for now, but do check back from time to time


Edit:

Avenger can u do one for them as well... good reading

I hate to disappoint so i will give you a sneak-peak...so to speak


These guys say they are civil servants, i don't see them offering to go round peoples homes and clean their toilet bowls for them. instead we hear "we don't care what you want, we will do what we want and your gonna like it!". all the while they keep drilling it into us that they serve us...can someone please explain that to me because maybe i'm to dumb to get it!

[~Drunken Master~]

Today we should see a new Government in Greece . . .

[MEZZANINE]

Today we should see a new Government in Greece . . .

Yep, as I predicted in post above 4 days ago

Greece will now not only have no referendum, but also have an unelected government. So much for democracy.

Italy will be next, another huge write off of bad debt followed by massive strikes and protests against spending cuts, redundancies & tax rises. The playboy president will be ousted, blamed for everything and more EU puppets will take charge.

Then probably Spain, quickly followed by Portugal, then others. Question is how much money will be thrown at the problem before the hardliners finally give up on the EU/Euro. Very reminiscent of the ERM only on a far greater scale.



Politicians keep saying they need to restore confidence, reminds me of the bit in 'War Games', NORAD at DefCom 2 on the brink of nuclear annihilation saying ' Confidence is High, I repeat confidence is high'

Everytime I hear them talking about restoring confidence in the markets all I can think is screw confidence, how about some restoring competence instead ???

[Legendary Apophis]

Elections are meant to be made soon if I'm not mistaken in Greece...

[[KMA]Avenger]

Sarkozy could be show the way out soon lol


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... sfeed=true

[Legendary Apophis]

Sarkozy could be show the way out soon lol


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... sfeed=true

That looked like a french left-wing speech, except it's in English language.

As for the "way out", well the two other main candidates, one is all about spend spend spend (center left - Socialist Party - François Hollande) and the other one you would like a lot her program, being totally anti EU (far right party - National Front - Marine le Pen).

[[KMA]Avenger]

Jim, why do you always insist on making this a left vs right issue when the people who are doing this to us are all damned bankers!?!

[deni]

Jim, why do you always insist on making this a left vs right issue when the people who are doing this to us are all damned bankers!?!

Don't blame it on the bankers, blame it on your elected politicians who generally have no grasp of any financial issues and are willing to take long term debt (with a maturity extending well beyond their few years of service) in order to pay for the promises that got them elected.