Immoral and Unethical Use Of Symbols within Forum.

[Field Marshall]

I have made it quite clear my opinions on the use of certain symbols within this forum.

There have been some issues of late where an external signiture contains an emblem portraying the policies adapted by the dictatorial goverment of Nazi Germany.

I understand that the emblem and others used may have once been used under a more sympathetic time and portrayed something else, the one that I am referencing is obvious, there has been enough discussion on the forums recently.

It is ILLEGAL to show this symbol within Germany, Switzerland & Austria and therefore, if anybody from these countries opens up the forum and this signiture is displayed they will be against the StGB law.

Certain persons externally of this forum are now aware of this and they may contact certain board owners in the near future to confirm this.

I wish to complain all Moderators who have closed those threads that are in question. On 2 seperate occasions, I have tried to announce this warning but it has been blocked.

This has been copied along with links, you may delete this but this will further prove the boards ignorance towards something which is immoral.

I understand that my outspoken word may get me banned and to be honest, I accept that risk, this is something I stand for and will not allow the open use of something which has hurt millions. I want an OFFICAL response to this, otherwise I will take this further and further. I don't think you realise the potential to cause harm and embarrassment. I am not flaming and I am not being rude. This is a forum and open discussion should be encouraged.

My email is Matthew@brockwellsforestry.co.uk if anybody wishes to discuss this outside of this board.

[Juliette]

Your Volksverhetzung, chaos- and fearmongering makes me doubt your sanity.


A. Your German/Austrian police, does it investigate your computers on a realtime basis? Or do you have enough time to *block* said 'criminal' signature?
B. How many other random countries' hypocritical laws do we need to uphold here? Just Germany? Or by any chance Northern Korea as well? Iran? America? There is no globally applicable law. If the picture is banned, block it.



..
*sigh*


edit: Here, I'll help you, again. viewtopic.php?f=67&t=113649

[FreeSpirit]

Note: This is not an OFFICIAL statement from the mod team but just me as user saying get a grib.

WWII has been 60 years ago the avarage forum user here is 18. I have no idea how old you are but i assume your not in your 60's or for that fact old enough to have fought in WWII. All u do is bring back the history as narrow minded as it is. As stated before the "cross" has been used in other cultures and religions.

The hindus have used it in their religion and among that there are other artifacts found way before WWII that have the "cross" displayed. Maybe go to wikipedia and search for the Swastika there. Its very enlightening and maybe gives more perspective then just the nazi empire. I personally have no problem with someone using the cross in a MMPORG but I do see that "problems" that it creates. However I think you have made your call to fast without even checking if the mods werent allready discussing it and finding a solution for it.

Once again this is no official mod response.

[Sammael]

im sorry to jump in here if it offends him for good reason's it should be removed come maybe his father or grandfather faught in WWII I would take offence if it was me. im just saying the symbols are very know world wide and hated for what they stood for (before they where stolen from other religions).

[FreeSpirit]

And here we are in a online game and the forum that comes iwth it. Let me point out this is not the "real" world but html/php commands that have designed these pages

[Field Marshall]

You are not authorised to read this forum.

Maybe not?

Oh, I do not pretend to be an expert on internet law, please do not get me wrong! I am merely putting it there...because I know that yahoo have been to several court proceedings for something very similar.

Please let me give you some quotes:

Yahoo! became a darling for free speech campaigners when, back in 2000, the search giant was sued by French concentration camp survivors following a French court's ruling that the dotcom giant was violating local law which prevents the public display of Nazi memorabilia. Yahoo! refused to remove the links when ordered by a French judge, refused to pay a per-day fine, and when it did remove some material as a token gesture, said it was unrelated to French legal demands.

German neo-Nazi websites mostly depend on Internet servers in the US and Canada, and use other terms for Nazi ideas and symbols. They also invent new symbols reminiscent of the swastika and adopt other symbols used by the Nazis, such as the sun disc, sun wheel, hooked cross, wolf's cross, wolf's hook, black sun, and dark star. A trial was held before the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany over the prohibition of the National Democratic Party (NPD), which had been accused of being a partly neo-Nazism accepting party.[citation needed] In the course of the trial, it was discovered that some high-ranking party members worked as informants for the domestic intelligence service, the Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz. The trial was temporarily suspended, and then rejected by the court because of the unclear influence of informants within the NPD.

This one, is interesting, they seemingly went to court over symbols that were not even Swastikas but immitations?...on ".com" servers. Also, the relevant of legality I brought up before?

You show me a website where they have allowed it and I'll shut up! All you will find is original swastikas relating to pre-Nazi use, which is the typical red/white back ground. The same being displayed in this forum.

And here we are in a online game and the forum that comes iwth it. Let me point out this is not the "real" world but html/php commands that have designed these pages

I understand what you are saying...but it is thread that creats a flag and paint that creates a picture...it's the end result that counts.

[Duderanch]

Is it really that much of a big deal? From what I have read he did it as like an 'evil symbol' or whatever. Not supporting neo-natzism or any racism that goes with it.

Why can't you see it for what it is? A picture.

[Field Marshall]

Is it really that much of a big deal? From what I have read he did it as like an 'evil symbol' or whatever. Not supporting neo-natzism or any racism that goes with it.

Why can't you see it for what it is? A picture.

Don't be so ignorant, it is what it portrays. Yes, it is a dark moment in history. One I and many would rather forget.

No, it is not just a picture, it is an illegal symbol within many countries completely immoral. I do not understand your point?

[Duderanch]

My point is you are blowing it right out of proportion.

I mean if he was preaching/supporting what it once stood for I would see your point and I'd be right with you but he is not.

[deni]

It is not a simply a picture but a symbol and symbols represent some idea/philosophy.


In my personal opinion the black Hackenkreuz on a red/white background (the colours of the 3rd Reich) has no place on the forums.


I do know that it resembles the ancient indian swastika (it is a mirrored image of it), but in context with the white/red/black it is nothing more then the Nazi Flag/Symbol which is not only not political correct, but as Field Marshall already pointed out prosecuted in many European countries.

[Field Marshall]

My point is you are blowing it right out of proportion.

I mean if he was preaching/supporting what it once stood for I would see your point and I'd be right with you but he is not.

I am not saying he is preaching/supporting but displaying a symbol once used in tyrrany. I am not saying he is a Neo-Nazi or that he is a bad person. Simply that I do not want to see that symbol.

[Jack]

You are not authorised to read this forum.

Maybe not?

viewtopic.php?t=113649

It is ILLEGAL to show this symbol within Germany, Switzerland & Austria and therefore, if anybody from these countries opens up the forum and this signiture is displayed they will be against the StGB law.

Yes, an old out dated law created during the occupation, designed specifically to oppress Germany so that suppression of any attempt to drive out the foreign occupation by the Germans would be so much easier. You support the continued oppression of the Germans?

Ignoring the above, like Universe said, we do not adhere to German law, we adhere to Canadian law, as that is where the servers are.

This has been copied along with links, you may delete this but this will further prove the boards ignorance towards something which is immoral.

Morality is a joke. It's something that was created by religious authorities to control their followers and force them to do what they want them to do, as such morality is extremely subjective and changes not only country to country, but state to state and community to community. The bible says that slavery is moral so long as you "treat them proper," for many religious people around the world, homosexuality is immoral, for the zealots stoning homosexuals is MORAL. Oppression of women is moral in many middle eastern nations. For terrorists, murdering as many none [insert religion here] as possible is not only moral, but their god given duty.

I wish to complain all Moderators who have closed those threads that are in question. On 2 seperate occasions, I have tried to announce this warning but it has been blocked.

The last thread was locked because you went on a vastly hypocritical tirade and witchhunt.

I understand that my outspoken word may get me banned and to be honest, I accept that risk, this is something I stand for and will not allow the open use of something which has hurt millions.

Then why allow the Hammer & Sickle? It's estimated that the Russians murder more than the Germans, yet no one gets their panties in a knot over that? Why then allow the American flag? Thousands of women were raped by American soldiers during the Japanese occupation and allied command covered it up. With Allied Command's blessing, the Japanese government opened up brothels and forced many women into sex slavery to "service" the allied troops stationed in Japan, but I guess that is acceptable, eh?

I don't think you realise the potential to cause harm and embarrassment. I am not flaming and I am not being rude. This is a forum and open discussion should be encouraged.

And I'm not sure you realize just how childish and hypocritical you're being. That quote alone is EXTREMELY hypocritical. We should not stop a tirade/witch hunt, because said tirade/witch hunt is poorly disguised as a "discussion" and this is a forum, yet you expect us to suppress someone else because YOU are offended?

Oh, I do not pretend to be an expert on internet law, please do not get me wrong! I am merely putting it there...because I know that yahoo have been to several court proceedings for something very similar.

Please let me give you some quotes:

Yahoo! became a darling for free speech campaigners when, back in 2000, the search giant was sued by French concentration camp survivors following a French court's ruling that the dotcom giant was violating local law which prevents the public display of Nazi memorabilia. Yahoo! refused to remove the links when ordered by a French judge, refused to pay a per-day fine, and when it did remove some material as a token gesture, said it was unrelated to French legal demands.

Your own quote proves that the French have no legal jurisdiction over this website!

German neo-Nazi websites mostly depend on Internet servers in the US and Canada, and use other terms for Nazi ideas and symbols. They also invent new symbols reminiscent of the swastika and adopt other symbols used by the Nazis, such as the sun disc, sun wheel, hooked cross, wolf's cross, wolf's hook, black sun, and dark star. A trial was held before the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany over the prohibition of the National Democratic Party (NPD), which had been accused of being a partly neo-Nazism accepting party.[citation needed] In the course of the trial, it was discovered that some high-ranking party members worked as informants for the domestic intelligence service, the Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz. The trial was temporarily suspended, and then rejected by the court because of the unclear influence of informants within the NPD.

This one, is interesting, they seemingly went to court over symbols that were not even Swastikas but immitations?...on ".com" servers. Also, the relevant of legality I brought up before?

The quote is talking about a website that is specifically neo nazi and the persons it regards are German officials. Furthermore it is quite clear that no legal action was taken against the websites, but only against the German officials accused of holding memberships there.





And I close with this...

Should we ban everything that offends, or may cause offense to someone? I mean, your hypocritical tirades and childishness offends me, and I certainly have the power, so should I ban you? If not, then why not?

[RoKeT]

i have one question for you mods how is it fair he can keep his sig but we can't create a potition around gatewars forums to get it taken away?

how is that free speach

wouldn't that be the awsome word... um irony?

[generaloneill]

allow swasticas today, who knows, hmm evil, let me see, gary glitter, need I say more?

[Field Marshall]

You are not authorised to read this forum.

Maybe not?

viewtopic.php?t=113649

It is ILLEGAL to show this symbol within Germany, Switzerland & Austria and therefore, if anybody from these countries opens up the forum and this signiture is displayed they will be against the StGB law.

Yes, an old out dated law created during the occupation, designed specifically to oppress Germany so that suppression of any attempt to drive out the foreign occupation by the Germans would be so much easier. You support the continued oppression of the Germans?

Ignoring the above, like Universe said, we do not adhere to German law, we adhere to Canadian law, as that is where the servers are.

Fair enough, point taken. Like I say, I do not know the ins and outs of laws and whether they are applicable here! I do not pretend to understand it, but was merely pointing it out as a bit of research showed it to be very borderline, though if you are fine with that then fine. Though – as there are German viewing members, you may need to check the legality of that. You may need to restrict German IPs within the forum. I suggest you get somebody to check it out, unless you are a lawyer or equivalent?

This has been copied along with links, you may delete this but this will further prove the boards ignorance towards something which is immoral.

Morality is a joke. It's something that was created by religious authorities to control their followers and force them to do what they want them to do, as such morality is extremely subjective and changes not only country to country, but state to state and community to community. The bible says that slavery is moral so long as you "treat them proper," for many religious people around the world, homosexuality is immoral, for the zealots stoning homosexuals is MORAL. Oppression of women is moral in many middle eastern nations. For terrorists, murdering as many none [insert religion here] as possible is not only moral, but their god given duty.

I wish to complain all Moderators who have closed those threads that are in question. On 2 seperate occasions, I have tried to announce this warning but it has been blocked.

The last thread was locked because you went on a vastly hypocritical tirade and witchhunt.

Well, I do not believe that to entirely correct, yes…to a certain extent you have a point. Though, I do not believe it to be a full “witchhunt”, but I do feel this thread is more justified and constructive. So I will retract the last statement on the basis you just said!

I understand that my outspoken word may get me banned and to be honest, I accept that risk, this is something I stand for and will not allow the open use of something which has hurt millions.

Then why allow the Hammer & Sickle? It's estimated that the Russians murder more than the Germans, yet no one gets their panties in a knot over that? Why then allow the American flag? Thousands of women were raped by American soldiers during the Japanese occupation and allied command covered it up. With Allied Command's blessing, the Japanese government opened up brothels and forced many women into sex slavery to "service" the allied troops stationed in Japan, but I guess that is acceptable, eh?

At NO point did I say this, I am not saying these are not shameful nor am I saying that I condone them. I am personally affected by the symbols I have mentioned, that they are signs that portrays something that is personal to me. Which is why I have not brought them to your attention.

I don't think you realise the potential to cause harm and embarrassment. I am not flaming and I am not being rude. This is a forum and open discussion should be encouraged.

And I'm not sure you realize just how childish and hypocritical you're being. That quote alone is EXTREMELY hypocritical. We should not stop a tirade/witch hunt, because said tirade/witch hunt is poorly disguised as a "discussion" and this is a forum, yet you expect us to suppress someone else because YOU are offended?

Oh, I do not pretend to be an expert on internet law, please do not get me wrong! I am merely putting it there...because I know that yahoo have been to several court proceedings for something very similar.

Please let me give you some quotes:

Yahoo! became a darling for free speech campaigners when, back in 2000, the search giant was sued by French concentration camp survivors following a French court's ruling that the dotcom giant was violating local law which prevents the public display of Nazi memorabilia. Yahoo! refused to remove the links when ordered by a French judge, refused to pay a per-day fine, and when it did remove some material as a token gesture, said it was unrelated to French legal demands.

Your own quote proves that the French have no legal jurisdiction over this website!

German neo-Nazi websites mostly depend on Internet servers in the US and Canada, and use other terms for Nazi ideas and symbols. They also invent new symbols reminiscent of the swastika and adopt other symbols used by the Nazis, such as the sun disc, sun wheel, hooked cross, wolf's cross, wolf's hook, black sun, and dark star. A trial was held before the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany over the prohibition of the National Democratic Party (NPD), which had been accused of being a partly neo-Nazism accepting party.[citation needed] In the course of the trial, it was discovered that some high-ranking party members worked as informants for the domestic intelligence service, the Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz. The trial was temporarily suspended, and then rejected by the court because of the unclear influence of informants within the NPD.

This one, is interesting, they seemingly went to court over symbols that were not even Swastikas but immitations?...on ".com" servers. Also, the relevant of legality I brought up before?

The quote is talking about a website that is specifically neo nazi and the persons it regards are German officials. Furthermore it is quite clear that no legal action was taken against the websites, but only against the German officials accused of holding memberships there.





And I close with this...

Should we ban everything that offends, or may cause offense to someone? I mean, your hypocritical tirades and childishness offends me, and I certainly have the power, so should I ban you? If not, then why not?

Do not bother with your threatening of “power” I will not rise to it. My account, both forum and ingame mean very little to me. The subject of this is far more important and something I will not drop until I am proven to be wrong. The way I see it and the way I understand it at the moment, I believe I am right. I am open to criticism and if you can prove me wrong feel free.

If that is a genuine question?...then you should not ban me as I am merely asking questions. In a structured, non-threatening way.