Appeal

[Lord Yojimbo]

Just to warn people I do like to get on the high horse so to speak every so often but I think I do have a valid reason to do so in this instance

Anyways: Appeal against the warning issues and the ineffective removal of irrelevent content

This is my first of the following comments were made in Sammaul The Rude Nemesis Tank vs. AGA and were then removed to Rants from Vendetta Corner (Nemesis vs LL, AGA and Eary)

"Good Hunting Sam.

I am sorry but I think this needs commenting on (This is my personal opinion and nothing more):

As for this comment by julliette: Now look at it. A bunch of miscreants, held together by what remains of former glory and a few newly introduced great people.

I am not totally familiar with the history of Nemesis as I am only new to this Empire (gives me a more impartial view since I am not caught up in the history of things! ) but I can see that they are far from the "miscreants" that you discribe so harshly. Loyalty and Honour still seem to hold true within Nemesis even if in some peoples view, Nemesis has fallen from its once lofty position. Still with those two core elements - it is the basis of any sucessful alliance.

I know one thing for sure though though - Although you have every right to speak your opinion here, you have shown no honour in the way you address your opinion here in public.

Anyways -Best of Luck to both parties involved and importantly - have fun lads "

I wished both players the best of luck - On topic I would say and it respondes the the following comment by Julliete which I might add was never removed since it is off topic and insulting to quite a few players I'd say.

"By the way, Stuff.. when I was asked to join Nemesis years ago, it was an elite group. When I left, not much of that former glory remained. Impossible promises were made, communication sucked, several rabid dogs were recruited.. no.. you act as though you are surprised I left. Have I not made clear to you, at your own request, how the presence of the filth you let in, your organisational dysfunction outweighed the joy of being with friends I had in Nemesis? No.. I'll tell you who ran. Nemesis itself ran from what it could have been. Now look at it. A bunch of miscreants, held together by what remains of former glory and a few newly introduced great people. The third superpower, we were to be. HA! You are Nemesis no longer. You are a pathetic shade of grey left in the footprint of what was once a great alliance. Remnants of an Empire, once glorious, now in a state of dereliction.
You have a decision to make, and the longer you run away from it, the harder it will become."

I am asking to repeal this decision (warning and removal to the dump) due to the the following:
- mod stated that topic was to cleaned of spam, however if one is to look at the topic - only my comments were not removed and the rest of the spam was left.
- second of all: my posts especially the first were related to the topic and addressed a point which needed addressing.
- if julliete's comments were not on topic then mine are not not so shouldnt both sets of comments be removed?
- how is anyone to respond to anyones point of view if the initial comment is left in the vendetta thread and the responce is removed to the public dump

Or another way to resolve this is for all the off topic comments to be removed completely with only sammaels and satan 666 comments left or to reinstate my comments as part of that thread - it is not spam - it is an opinion relevent to the situation that was being discussed in conjunction with the actual vendetta and if it cannot be allowed then only the two players comments should remain if I was to go by the logic of the mod in question.

My first post is on point I feel - the following posts I will accept as spam but not the first one.

UPDATE - mod did move some of the posts out to the general forum but still not all the ones addressing the issue at hand here.

Example:

By the way, Stuff.. when I was asked to join Nemesis years ago, it was an elite group. When I left, not much of that former glory remained. Impossible promises were made, communication sucked, several rabid dogs were recruited.. no.. you act as though you are surprised I left. Have I not made clear to you, at your own request, how the presence of the filth you let in, your organisational dysfunction outweighed the joy of being with friends I had in Nemesis? No.. I'll tell you who ran. Nemesis itself ran from what it could have been. Now look at it. A bunch of miscreants, held together by what remains of former glory and a few newly introduced great people. The third superpower, we were to be. HA! You are Nemesis no longer. You are a pathetic shade of grey left in the footprint of what was once a great alliance. Remnants of an Empire, once glorious, now in a state of dereliction.
You have a decision to make, and the longer you run away from it, the harder it will become..

I remember when i started to play this game you were the pathetic player everybody talked about for your actions and your lies..

Anyways Give him hell Sam

You just found yourself a statless month When i'm not on my ascending ppt

Have fun AGA Sam seems to do his fighting through PMs

And no worries, if Earendil and/or Juliette herself aren't onto your account, I'll be. You just proven how damned true Juliette's words start to sound...
For further note: GL AGA

Where is the relevence of this to the vendetta? If mine was kicked surely any like these should be removed as well. Or are both relevent to the context of the original topic and as such shouldnt all be restored then? Surely will put the above qoute in better context to the topic?

[Jack]

Cliff notes?

[zeekomkommer]

The following warning was issued to this user
» This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=124&p=2070800#p2070800 .

I posted a warning to keep it on topic

Section 4: Spam
b. Replies
Replies will be considered spam if they do not contribute to the discussion of the topic.

Consequence:
A polite note from a moderator will be issued requesting the user cut down the amount of irrelevant posts. Repeat offenders will be given one warning point


all the cliffnotes you need

[Lord Yojimbo]

The following warning was issued to this user
» This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=124&p=2070800#p2070800 .

I posted a warning to keep it on topic

Section 4: Spam
b. Replies
Replies will be considered spam if they do not contribute to the discussion of the topic.

Consequence:
A polite note from a moderator will be issued requesting the user cut down the amount of irrelevant posts. Repeat offenders will be given one warning point


all the cliffnotes you need

Cliffnotes - I prefer my soap box - I like to get on it and express my opinions

You should have seen the context the thread had taken - some comments needed redressing when I read them - If I had redressed them elsewhere it would have being hard to keep my own comments in context with the ever evolving discussion what stemmed from this mess of a thread - needless to say it doesnt cover anyone in glory.

I will withraw my appleal to sort out the posts - (sorted out a bit too late but still - its sorted to a certain extent) there but I still think its merited to argue this point that the warning is unfair.

Looking at the original context of this: A opinion was made in conjunction with the thread - i quoted that and responded - surely that rule does not apply especially when the last quote in my previous post here is still IN THE ORIGINAL VENDETTA forum

By the way, Stuff.. when I was asked to join Nemesis years ago, it was an elite group. When I left, not much of that former glory remained. Impossible promises were made, communication sucked, several rabid dogs were recruited.. no.. you act as though you are surprised I left. Have I not made clear to you, at your own request, how the presence of the filth you let in, your organisational dysfunction outweighed the joy of being with friends I had in Nemesis? No.. I'll tell you who ran. Nemesis itself ran from what it could have been. Now look at it. A bunch of miscreants, held together by what remains of former glory and a few newly introduced great people. The third superpower, we were to be. HA! You are Nemesis no longer. You are a pathetic shade of grey left in the footprint of what was once a great alliance. Remnants of an Empire, once glorious, now in a state of dereliction.
You have a decision to make, and the longer you run away from it, the harder it will become..

This appears all over the thread!

How is that on the topic of a 1 v 1 vendetta? This is still there and still gives a perfect context for the responce I gave which was removed.

There is relevence to the posting when the previous post are still in play in the topic as they were at the time (and some are still there as you can see in the quote above) before the mod removed them (better late than never might I add) - but how come the moderation group didnt step in when it started to go completely off the topic with the insults flying and the trading miscomceptions of peoples characters were being flung around?

At least if I am not sucessful in this - at least take time to look at this and figure a better way to handle a mess like that for the future
No offence ment but it needed to be said.

[Mordack]

On face value, I'm inclined to agree that the post for which you were warned was no more or less off-topic than that Juliette posted.

The confusing nature of the thread, with splits and such being made at various points, does cloud the issue slightly. I'd be curious to hear another perspective on this.

[Juliette]

You request my perspective? Or the perspective of the one who warned him? (No need to fill this up with perspectives.. hence my inquiry.)

[Mordack]

You request my perspective? Or the perspective of the one who warned him? (No need to fill this up with perspectives.. hence my inquiry.)

Either or. This whole thing could be crossed wires, too.

[knight]

The thread started off in General.

The next day it was in Vendetta, at this point is where I posted a warning to stop the spam because it was now a Vendetta.

After I received a number of PMs, I decided it would be best (for all involved) to remove the Spam and Split it to it's own thread in general where more bickering and finger pointing could take place.

Hope this helps.

[Mordack]

The thread started off in General.

The next day it was in Vendetta, at this point is where I posted a warning to stop the spam because it was now a Vendetta.

After I received a number of PMs, I decided it would be best (for all involved) to remove the Spam and Split it to it's own thread in general where more bickering and finger pointing could take place.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, Knight. That is helpful.

I'm going to eat now, but when I get back I'll look through the thread(s) in question and try to establish the timing of all this; as it could impact the verdict.

[Lord Yojimbo]

cool - thank you for considering this still - with julliettes comment quoted in the actual vendetta thread - my post still holds come context as far as i can see it. Its not about the perspective - looking objectively it would seem the context for my postings is still present.

As seen today - 19.04:

By the way, Stuff.. when I was asked to join Nemesis years ago, it was an elite group. When I left, not much of that former glory remained. Impossible promises were made, communication sucked, several rabid dogs were recruited.. no.. you act as though you are surprised I left. Have I not made clear to you, at your own request, how the presence of the filth you let in, your organisational dysfunction outweighed the joy of being with friends I had in Nemesis? No.. I'll tell you who ran. Nemesis itself ran from what it could have been. Now look at it. A bunch of miscreants, held together by what remains of former glory and a few newly introduced great people. The third superpower, we were to be. HA! You are Nemesis no longer. You are a pathetic shade of grey left in the footprint of what was once a great alliance. Remnants of an Empire, once glorious, now in a state of dereliction.
You have a decision to make, and the longer you run away from it, the harder it will become..

I remember when i started to play this game you were the pathetic player everybody talked about for your actions and your lies..

Anyways Give him hell Sam

You just found yourself a statless month When i'm not on my ascending ppt

Have fun AGA Sam seems to do his fighting through PMs

[Juliette]

By extension of your argument, if in a thread on the topic of cars Billy would post about bunnies ("I got my new Ford, and it's AMAZING at road killing bunnies"), and Phyllis would reference Billy's remark about bunnies to talk about her bunny being the softest, cutest ever, and that she would shoot anyone who'd try to 'road kill (sic!) it'.. Phyllis' comment would be on topic, because Billy's primary context-defining post is still present? No, you and I agree there, that Phyllis' post is clearly off-topic, and Billy's is still on topic; i.e. that of cars, his announcement of having purchased a Ford. It might serve the thread at that time to remove Billy's "I got my new Ford.." announcement so as not to give cause for future derailment by the likes of Phyllis.

However. And this is what occurred in the thread; if Michael were to quote Billy in reference to his Ford, stating how marvellous the new engine is, the humming is so sexy, so monotonous, so powerful.. Michael's post is very much on the topic of 'cars'. His entire post is. He replied to the relevant elements in Billy's post, and has steered the thread away from any potential derailment in regards to the bunnies Billy likes to kill. Phyllis' reply, and Billy's original post (which fit a new topic "Bunnykilling" much better anyway) are moved away from the thread to somewhere else. Michael's post stays in the thread, and while Phyllis might say that the presence of Billy's post, quoted in Michael's post is abhorrent and provides context to her rant against killing bunnies; I hope we all agree that it does not fall to the moderator to then edit Michael's post, so that it only cites the exact relevant piece from Billy's post Michael is replying to.


It is not that complicated, and to suggest otherwise is a desperate attempt at changing existing custom. A change, I might add, which would burden moderators with the full responsibility for any remaining off-topic material in threads.. because otherwise, all given warnings are invalid? A most chucklesome idea. Utterly cumbersome in application, and ultimately unnecessary in the current situation.

[Lord Yojimbo]

By extension of your argument, if in a thread on the topic of cars Billy would post about bunnies ("I got my new Ford, and it's AMAZING at road killing bunnies"), and Phyllis would reference Billy's remark about bunnies to talk about her bunny being the softest, cutest ever, and that she would shoot anyone who'd try to 'road kill (sic!) it'.. Phyllis' comment would be on topic, because Billy's primary context-defining post is still present? No, you and I agree there, that Phyllis' post is clearly off-topic, and Billy's is still on topic; i.e. that of cars, his announcement of having purchased a Ford. It might serve the thread at that time to remove Billy's "I got my new Ford.." announcement so as not to give cause for future derailment by the likes of Phyllis.

However. And this is what occurred in the thread; if Michael were to quote Billy in reference to his Ford, stating how marvellous the new engine is, the humming is so sexy, so monotonous, so powerful.. Michael's post is very much on the topic of 'cars'. His entire post is. He replied to the relevant elements in Billy's post, and has steered the thread away from any potential derailment in regards to the bunnies Billy likes to kill. Phyllis' reply, and Billy's original post (which fit a new topic "Bunnykilling" much better anyway) are moved away from the thread to somewhere else. Michael's post stays in the thread, and while Phyllis might say that the presence of Billy's post, quoted in Michael's post is abhorrent and provides context to her rant against killing bunnies; I hope we all agree that it does not fall to the moderator to then edit Michael's post, so that it only cites the exact relevant piece from Billy's post Michael is replying to.


It is not that complicated, and to suggest otherwise is a desperate attempt at changing existing custom. A change, I might add, which would burden moderators with the full responsibility for any remaining off-topic material in threads.. because otherwise, all given warnings are invalid? A most chucklesome idea. Utterly cumbersome in application, and ultimately unnecessary in the current situation.

EDIT:
Something Cited is still part of the context while present and thus relevent otherwise why when the thread is moderated would you leave a citation which is out of context with the rest? why not remove it?

Then maybe it is part of my intent to question why it was allowed to proceed to such an extent? this surely does suggest a need for a review of the moderation guidelines then? still the posting that I put up is in there and looking at it without getting into the nitty gritty of each perspective - still leads to the same point. It is in there and it still leaves that context intact and as such I responded to a context still present within the thread

Desperation - No: i wanted to make a point in the inadaquacy of the moderation guidelines even if I at least felt that if I cant reppeal this warning then at least I can point out the apparent flaws so as to at least ensure that the possibility of some sort of review of the guidelines takes place.

Either way - if you want to get down to the technicalities of it - still if you are a mod and cant handle the burden of of it then how can you hope to be able to enfoce all guidlines ......still if its off point then remove it all and if its too burdensome then have a policy of deleting an entire thread and ask them to start a new one free of spam - this would solve that efficiently and effectively with none of the resuidual left overs to bicker about.

[knight]

Time-line:

Thread started by SÅTÅN 666 @: April 14th, 2010, 12:08 am

Semper's first post: April 14th, 2010, 12:24 am

Juliette's first post: April 14th, 2010, 1:59 am

Those are my time zones times (if you get that). The next day is when I posted to stop spamming as it is a vendetta now. April 14th, 2010, 4:24 pm

After coming back to the thread later that night when I had some time I saw that my warning was ignored. I issued two warnings, one to Lord Yojimbo and the other one to Harakash Maha Vishnu.

At this point I decided that if I can't stop the spam I might as well give them somewhere to sling the mud. I split the topic and moved the mud slinging (as best I could) to General; the thread can still be seen there.

[Lord Yojimbo]

Time-line:

Thread started by SÅTÅN 666 @: April 14th, 2010, 12:08 am

Semper's first post: April 14th, 2010, 12:24 am

Juliette's first post: April 14th, 2010, 1:59 am

Those are my time zones times (if you get that). The next day is when I posted to stop spamming as it is a vendetta now. April 14th, 2010, 4:24 pm

After coming back to the thread later that night when I had some time I saw that my warning was ignored. I issued two warnings, one to Lord Yojimbo and the other one to Harakash Maha Vishnu.

At this point I decided that if I can't stop the spam I might as well give them somewhere to sling the mud. I split the topic and moved the mud slinging (as best I could) to General; the thread can still be seen there.

Mud sticks - but it was slung - and a responce was warrented and still warrented since there are still details present in the original thread at this moment in time. Well after the mod intervention.

Is there not a mod active for each set of time zones? say 6 mods over the 24 hour periods?
Plus look at the vendetta - my posting was still in context as I pointed out earlier with the relevent quote: one of a few which gives context to it.
I know you cant be active all the time but if the topic does spirral out of control why not delete it and say - ok it was full of spam and post a new one say "Here youa re lads - its fresh with none of the crap in it and off you go but keep it to the point". Leaving bits of post and splitting up doesnt help at all - creates two threads with little sense and people like me moaning and bickering about it. Still to delete spammed threads - I am sure that would send a message loud and clear - post related or no postings at all.

I am only placing a suggestion with my appeal against the warning. If ye dont like it then fair enough.

Apologies if you find me annoying Still - I have my case and will leave it at that for the Onbudsman to make the Decision
And thanks to the mods for providing their perspective and insight - I know its not an easy job at times - I moderate forums myself

[Zeratul]

there isnt a mod available for every section, every hour... its a practical impossibility to have mods for every section online at all times...