StarGateWars Forums

it was pointed out that massing is a failing pasttime... as sabbing is overriding it by too much.
Both massing and sabbing should be required...how to do that?

answer: sab works on attack weapons. just attack weapons.
to get def weapons, one must mass them down...

makes sense! going to happen... if i cannot think of a good reason not to

Interesting!!! Looking forward to seeing how it plays out....
Updates are always nice....

Forum wrote:it was pointed out that massing is a failing pasttime... as sabbing is overriding it by too much.
Both massing and sabbing should be required...how to do that?

answer: sab works on attack weapons. just attack weapons.
to get def weapons, one must mass them down...

makes sense! going to happen... if i cannot think of a good reason not to

I can think of many good reasons not to - the first being that sabbing a def down is often the only way of removing some of the massive defs: with alliance repair and alliance ppt, people can maintain an alliance mate's def indefinitely - the only way to outflank that is to sab it down quickly.

Second reason would be you're taking out a staple move that has been in the game since 05 - you have always been able to sab defs - that requires serious consideration, and not something to be done on the fly.

Now, if you want to reconfigure things, then perhaps make sab more effective against attack weps than def weps: ie: sab destroys 2% of def weps (4% if at war), but destroys 3% of attack weps (6% if at war).

Personally, if you want to bring back massing, downgrading sabotage is not the way forward. All that will achieve is to make big defs unassailable. If you want to bring back massing, then remove alliance repair - cos that is the main reason people don't mass, because they can never finish off a def before the leader/2IC repairs, and they have to start over.

Forum wrote:it was pointed out that massing is a failing pasttime... as sabbing is overriding it by too much.
Both massing and sabbing should be required...how to do that?

answer: sab works on attack weapons. just attack weapons.
to get def weapons, one must mass them down...

makes sense! going to happen... if i cannot think of a good reason not to

So we need 0 covert to protect our defs now?

so basically if I set myself up with a huge def, and a raiders strike, I'm untouchable

With this update, whats to stop people from building huge defences and having zero strike and zero covert, sitting there alliance repairing.

Edit: Damnit Rene, stop reading my mind. It's Rude!!

If sabbing goes for defenses, then it will be very very very hard to get them down as Repli Magni stated. 9 out of 10 masses involve sabbing the defense at some point either fully or partially (half sab/half mass to bring power down) when your in a state of war, otherwise those defenses wouldn't fall...
The perfect balance is so hard to find. As it stands, sabbing is to powerful of a weapons and yes, often negates massing to its full extent. But without it, thats one less precision tool for a craftsman of destruction to use against a sometimes impenetrable line of defensive abilities in this game


edit: good obvious point renegadze maybe the strike just should always fall first and what it takes to covert nox someone is increased

renegadze wrote:So we need 0 covert to protect our defs now?

so basically if I set myself up with a huge def, and a raiders strike, I'm untouchable

Military Effectiveness
Strike Action 0 Ranked: 30,000
Defensive Action 300,000,000,000,000 Ranked: 1
Covert Action 0 Ranked 20,000

How long before we see someone with those stats?

Indeed Admin, this is not a good idea.

Sabbing needs to affect the defence weapons or you will see that there will be a heap of people with 100trillion defences and no strikes or big strikes becuase they know that their defencnes are untouchable.

The reason massing is becoming rarer is because it now COSTS a heap more to mass in terms of UU. It's close to a one to one ratio and in massing a big alliance that cost is just too much. Additionally with alliance repair and auto war, it becomes unfeasible if not impossible to mass someone. You can mass them almost to 0 and then allaince repair, which means your target is still no nox, while you are set to war with them.

Sabbing still needs to affect defence weapons so that things can be sabbed down to a reasonable level, BUT I would not object if sabbing when it hit attack weapons did so with more damage as it is the only way of destroying attack weapons.

Sabbing is NOT over riding massing, it's more now accompanying massing which is how it should be. As stated previously massing the really big defences now comes often at too much cost because of other game changes.

This one would just be another tool to make defences EVEN MORE untouchable.

This is a bad suggestion for many reasons and was never discussed in Game Suggestions as should be the process of all significant changes like this one.

Players can now just play a totally defensive game.

This will make the game considerably more boring and will result in massing becoming less likely.

So the suggestion makes the problem worse not better.

RepliMagni wrote:

Forum wrote:it was pointed out that massing is a failing pasttime... as sabbing is overriding it by too much.
Both massing and sabbing should be required...how to do that?

answer: sab works on attack weapons. just attack weapons.
to get def weapons, one must mass them down...

makes sense! going to happen... if i cannot think of a good reason not to

I can think of many good reasons not to - the first being that sabbing a def down is often the only way of removing some of the massive defs: with alliance repair and alliance ppt, people can maintain an alliance mate's def indefinitely - the only way to outflank that is to sab it down quickly.

Second reason would be you're taking out a staple move that has been in the game since 05 - you have always been able to sab defs - that requires serious consideration, and not something to be done on the fly.

Now, if you want to reconfigure things, then perhaps make sab more effective against attack weps than def weps: ie: sab destroys 2% of def weps (4% if at war), but destroys 3% of attack weps (6% if at war).

Personally, if you want to bring back massing, downgrading sabotage is not the way forward. All that will achieve is to make big defs unassailable. If you want to bring back massing, then remove alliance repair - cos that is the main reason people don't mass, because they can never finish off a def before the leader/2IC repairs, and they have to start over.

I'm with you here. massing is not the be all and end all.


as the old saying goes. there are more than one way to skin a cat. though it seems soon there will be only one way to destroy a defence. this is a bad update for oh so many reasons.

1. it favours those who have large armies with large amounts of uu to invest in their defence.
2. it puts those who have invested heavily into their covert levels at a disadvantage (in terms of sheer bang for your proverbial buck)


I'm with Tekki and RepliMagni here. defences still should be sabbed. though they SHOULD target attack weapons more so.

*goes off to build a massive defence

Tekki wrote:Indeed Admin, this is not a good idea.

Sabbing is NOT over riding massing, it's more now accompanying massing which is how it should be. As stated previously massing the really big defences now comes often at too much cost because of other game changes.

This one would just be another tool to make defences EVEN MORE untouchable.

Yeah i pretty much agree with this, doesnt seem like a good update tbh

I personally don't think this is a good idea for the reasons already stated. However, I think the idea of it hitting attack weapons first and/or harder is an interesting one, as it might encourage people to raise their strikes to protect their defences, which could shake things up a bit in terms of suddenly having more people with high strikes floating around to potentially encourage massing, as seems to be the point of this update.

Agreed with them above for many of the same reasons. Sabbing is powerful now and massing is not as useful, but this seems like a step in the wrong direction (unless that direction is making lots of defenses that can't be massed easily).

Very bad idea for so many reasons.

Tekki wrote:Indeed Admin, this is not a good idea.

Sabbing is NOT over riding massing, it's more now accompanying massing which is how it should be. As stated previously massing the really big defences now comes often at too much cost because of other game changes.

This one would just be another tool to make defences EVEN MORE untouchable.

+1

Simply the worst proposed update in the history of the game, BUT im willing to disscuss it properly, not just say the idea is rubbish, we will be constructive....

...Lets fine tune this, defence weapons can be sabbed, but only after the strike is gone? Still not going to work, you cant mass strike weapons so sabbing them to 0 is wayyy to costly, and with alliance repair and nox, its going to be next to impossible to mass away a defence anyway.

This needs alot of improvement , im happy for massing to become a skill again, but frankly, it needs a better idea than this, i dont think you have thought through the short or long term implications.

Perhaps if you get rid of nox and alliance repair, and then make it so sabbing strike only works, MAYBE, just maybe, you would have an update. But your unlikely to do either of those things let alone both, so it will simply not work, It will in essense ruin the mechanics of the game beyond repair. A better "quick fix" for me would be 2 sabbing formulae, So in effect, you would sab for example, Half the amount of def weapons per sab you do now (going back to the original sabbing for def weapons) but then keeping the current formula for strike weapons, so that you would first have to mass a subjects defence at the very least half way before sabbing becomes useful to use, THEN you could do real strike damage too. In doing this you would be keeping the idea of massing alive plus keeping covert useful (which alot of people have invested in heavily) and you would be able to keep Nox and Alliance repair which alot of people wouldnt want to see go either.