What should Greece do?

[[KMA]Avenger]

Ok, what's happened round the world, not just in Greece is that the speculators have been and continue to bet against currency's. so they have a vested interest in watching nations economies crumble and the people of each respective nation suffer the losses of the speculators. this is exactly like a corporate hostile takeover and the gutting of a corporation and the fire-sale of it's assets. chief amongst these criminal bankers and speculators are Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan. Goldman Sachs helped the corrupt Greek Govt cook the books and hide the debt so Greece could get into the Euro Zone.
In short, Goldman Sachs goes to the Greek Govt and says "hey, we have some fraud we can sell you" the Greek Govt says "sure, COME ON DOWN!", the banksters and the Greek Govt then have the nerve to tell the people they need to live in abject poverty to pay a bill they don't owe. anything else is pure BS.

[deni]

It is rather amusing how you seem to blame everyone for the state of the Greek finance but the Greek themselves.

It was their own bad debt management and expenses much higher than their income that led to this current crises. Expenses used to provide for the Greek pensions, wages and so on.

This was no case of Warren Buffet going against the GBP, no outside force did do that to the Greeks. It is a homemade Greek problem that was caused by their democratically elected governement.

[[KMA]Avenger]

Is that what your research has lead to, or is that the regurgitated information of the talking heads?

In case you haven't noticed, this is a global problem and not confined to Greece. other nations have a much more serious problem than Greece. the UK, the US, Portugal, Italy, Spain have MUCH HIGHER debts than Greece. Greece is 1 small domino which if it falls will cause the other bigger dominoes to fall causing a chain reaction. hence why the banksters are so eager to ram the debt down the throat of the Greek people, and every other working man in the world, till they have had there fill and they totally gut the worlds economy.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
-Thomas Jefferson

Is that not exactly what is going on right now but on a global scale, not just in the US?
we the people and the middle class are having our wealth stolen by corrupt banks...the bailouts prove this. we could have paid off the debts of the people, putting money back into circulation and got the economy going again over night. instead the money went to the banks who in turn re-borrow that money to us and our Govts AT INTEREST! you don't see the problem here?

That's like i come to your house and kick in the front door, beat the bejesus out of you and take your goods. the next day you come to my house and ask for your possessions back. i say "sure but from now on you pay me $100 a month or i'll come and beat you up and take your goods again" and you agree to those terms.

This all came about as a direct result of deregulation within the banking and financial systems, i doubt the people of Greece have that much global clout that they could do this. also this is exactly the same problem that caused the great depression, which is why Glass Steagal and other banking regulations were implemented world wide, to stop this level of criminality with the Banking and financial systems

[deni]

There is a big difference between Greece and Spain for example. Namely, Spain can still pay the interests and the principals of their debts. Greece cannot. And while Spain makes a great effort to consolidate their budget and work towards reducing its debt, no such effort is seen with Greece

So no, Greek is not brought down by neither Germany, nor Spain nor France. It is brought down by its own bad management aka government.

You blame the "banksters"? What did they do? Oh, they did not come and said "Pay back. Now!!!" but actually accepted a 50% haircut. 50%!

Basically the oh so evil "banksters" agreed to make Greece a Christmas present worth over 100 billion Euro. And you call them criminal for that? See that as a crime to the Greek people? Ramming 100 billion Euro down their throat!?

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[[KMA]Avenger]

deni, i don't mean to be rude or condescending, but i can see from your responses that you have no idea what is going on with Greece, Spain and the greater global economic crisis. i've spent 3+ years looking solely at the economic situation and it is not what you think it is...

For instance, did you know that Spain has just had their credit rating downgraded which has resulted in Spain paying more for their short and long term bond yields which has brought them closer to the point of not being able to sustain their debts? this is mainstream news, not some hidden conspiracy.

Trust what i say is true, this money is NOT owed by the people of the world, this debt belongs to the banks and the banks alone. but don't take my word for it, go see for yourself.

Edit, What KF said.

[deni]

The 'debt' if you can call if that Deni is issued by a government on speculative basis, ie they issue bonds based on the population figures. This works because it is assumed that each member of the taxable population will work and pay XYZ amount in taxes over thier lifetime.

However I and probably you and KMA and a large portion of the worlds population did not sign anytihng to say you agree to have debt issued in your name.

If you didnt agree to it in the first place, then its not legal & it ifs not legal then it shouldnt be paid, as by doing so you will then make it legal debt by your own actions.

That is not true.

Bonds are issued by the government through special government agencies. The amount of new debt issued (usually as a limit) is part of the budget. The budget is nothing more than a "business plan" on a state level and lists your planned expenses, your planned income and if your planned expenses are higher then your income, the debt you need to take so your budget is balanced (income + debt = expenses) . The very same budget that the Greek government has to present to the democratically elected Greek parliament to be voted upon.




Thus, there is no doubt about the legitimacy of the debt issued and the obligations to repay that debt.

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[deni]

deni, i don't mean to be rude or condescending, but i can see from your responses that you have no idea what is going on with Greece, Spain and the greater global economic crisis. i've spent 3+ years looking solely at the economic situation and it is not what you think it is...

For instance, did you know that Spain has just had their credit rating downgraded which has resulted in Spain paying more for their short and long term bond yields which has brought them closer to the point of not being able to sustain their debts? this is mainstream news, not some hidden conspiracy.

Trust what i say is true, this money is NOT owed by the people of the world, this debt belongs to the banks and the banks alone. but don't take my word for it, go see for yourself.
Edit, What KF said.

Without wanting to be rude myself, I had to laugh out really hard and loud when reading your post. Those who know of my professional (and educational) background will know why.

I understand your desire to blame every sin there is on the big evil banks, yet it does not do you any honour to come up with the "if you do not agree with me, then you do not understand anything"-statement. It is a sign of weakness.

course there is a legitamacy issue ragarding personal liabitiy for the debt issued on the basis of your birth registration.

It is known as wage indenture Deni, its a nice way way of essentially saying slave & do I really need to remind you that slavery is considered illegal in most places worldwide?

So, by your same logic, taxes are illegal too? They are after all decided by the same goverment body that decides about the debt?

And remind me where all that debt went to? Wages? Roads? Adminstration? Social security? Public transport? Hospitals? Schools?

Reap the benefits but not pay the bills? Is that what makes you not a "slave"?

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[~Drunken Master~]

The EU should be disbanded completely as it is not doing anyone any favors. More and more will fall as each country goes in different directions.

Very hard to keep up with the financial down fall.

Unless they suck up to China for money like the US does.

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[Legendary Apophis]

The EU should be disbanded completely as it is not doing anyone any favors. More and more will fall as each country goes in different directions.

Very hard to keep up with the financial down fall.

Unless they suck up to China for money like the US does.

There you are completely wrong, EU has been of great help to some of the Eastern Nations, and also help Portugal/Spain to get off the horrible state they were after decades of dictatorship from Salazar and Franco. Comparing 2007 to 1977 economy situation for these two countries would be a good thing to consider for all of the EU hostile bunch.
Not to mention it helped a lot my nation's agrarian sector (not only that). Not to mention people who yell at the Euro forget the scam about currency changes that happened before Euro being implemented. I remember one example taught in economy course, that a dude did a tour in the EU of 15 (in late 1990s) with 100FF, changing currency in every country, in the end, 2/3 (yes!) of what he had without spending anything from this symbolic amount just changing it, disappeared between currencies change. If the Euro wasn't there, I know for sure my nation (at least, but not only this one) would have suffered more from the recession than it currently did.


Also, deni, welcome to the club of "you don't agree with me thus you don't understand how it works".

[~Drunken Master~]

The EU should be disbanded completely as it is not doing anyone any favors. More and more will fall as each country goes in different directions.

Very hard to keep up with the financial down fall.

Unless they suck up to China for money like the US does.

There you are completely wrong, EU has been of great help to some of the Eastern Nations, and also help Portugal/Spain to get off the horrible state they were after decades of dictatorship from Salazar and Franco.
Not to mention it helped a lot my nation's agrarian sector (not only that). Not to mention people who yell at the Euro forget the scam about currency changes that happened before Euro being implemented. I remember one example taught in economy course, that a dude did a tour in the EU of 15 (in late 1990s) with 100FF, changing currency in every country, in the end, 2/3 (yes!) of what he had without spending anything from this symbolic amount just changing it, disappeared between currencies change. Wonderful, isn't it?


Also, deni, welcome to the club of "you don't agree with me thus you don't understand how it works".

Bro, you make some valid points and i do agree with most of it. The question is , where does it all end? how many will fail before the BIG ECONOMY'S like Germany go belly up ?

Time to get off a sinking ship before it is too late...

[deni]

The EU should be disbanded completely as it is not doing anyone any favors. More and more will fall as each country goes in different directions.

Very hard to keep up with the financial down fall.

Unless they suck up to China for money like the US does.

There you are completely wrong, EU has been of great help to some of the Eastern Nations, and also help Portugal/Spain to get off the horrible state they were after decades of dictatorship from Salazar and Franco.
Not to mention it helped a lot my nation's agrarian sector (not only that). Not to mention people who yell at the Euro forget the scam about currency changes that happened before Euro being implemented. I remember one example taught in economy course, that a dude did a tour in the EU of 15 (in late 1990s) with 100FF, changing currency in every country, in the end, 2/3 (yes!) of what he had without spending anything from this symbolic amount just changing it, disappeared between currencies change. Wonderful, isn't it?


Also, deni, welcome to the club of "you don't agree with me thus you don't understand how it works".

Bro, you make some valid points and i do agree with most of it. The question is , where does it all end? how many will fail before the BIG ECONOMY'S like Germany go belly up ?

Time to get off a sinking ship before it is too late...

I guess you will have to wait a long time before this happens. Germany still grows, there has been basically no "crisis" that was felt in any way. No "For Sale" signs on every fifth house as seen in the UK for example. Even with the burden the Euro partnes bear upon Germany, Germany is still doing great.