Solved: techs change

[Adapt]

on the left nav -yes. i see it too. very very odd.
will keep looking but may let this slide for a touch...
still debating on whether I keep techs

Might just be me, but techs and naq still aren't updating after purchase

Keep techs its the one thing that make newgrounds interesting! Techs make the game more complex, without techs you ony have to worry about amount of units and weapons, to increase your realm.

The game will become far to easy if techs are eliminated, now you have the option with tech of increasing everything on a mass scale. Then you dont only have to up weapons and units, you have to consider both with a mathamatical mind.

Planning your moves in advance and having the ability to go against other realms using attack, defence race bonuses etc. Instead you can be an all rounder, so your not ony limited and stuck to race bonuses in attack and so on so forth.

Having the ability to calculate how best to spend naq is what separates newgrounds from the main server. I mainy play for the complexity of the game play, as does my friend Vegeta. [known on the forum and main as Lubu].

The games got strategy because of tech levels, it makes for an unpredicable game play strategically, thus being why its very interesting when opposed by other players. Without tech levels it makes newgrounds very similar game play to the main sever.

[Forum]

while I agree with you...
2 things.
1) simplicity (although techs are simply)
and more importantly:
2) huge accounts and disincentive to ascend.
I am thinking limiting tech to 100 per ascension or something.

any ideas on #2 ?

on the left nav -yes. i see it too. very very odd.
will keep looking but may let this slide for a touch...
still debating on whether I keep techs

Might just be me, but techs and naq still aren't updating after purchase

Keep techs its the one thing that make newgrounds interesting! Techs make the game more complex, without techs you ony have to worry about amount of units and weapons, to increase your realm.

The game will become far to easy if techs are eliminated, now you have the option with tech of increasing everything on a mass scale. Then you dont only have to up weapons and units, you have to consider both with a mathamatical mind.

Planning your moves in advance and having the ability to go against other realms using attack, defence race bonuses etc. Instead you can be an all rounder, so your not ony limited and stuck to race bonuses in attack and so on so forth.

Having the ability to calculate how best to spend naq is what separates newgrounds from the main server. I mainy play for the complexity of the game play, as does my friend Vegeta. [known on the forum and main as Lubu].

The games got strategy because of tech levels, it makes for an unpredicable game play strategically, thus being why its very interesting when opposed by other players. Without tech levels it makes newgrounds very similar game play to the main sever.

[LuBu]

while I agree with you...
2 things.
1) simplicity (although techs are simply)
and more importantly:
2) huge accounts and disincentive to ascend.
I am thinking limiting tech to 100 per ascension or something.

any ideas on #2 ?

on the left nav -yes. i see it too. very very odd.
will keep looking but may let this slide for a touch...
still debating on whether I keep techs

Might just be me, but techs and naq still aren't updating after purchase

Keep techs its the one thing that make newgrounds interesting! Techs make the game more complex, without techs you ony have to worry about amount of units and weapons, to increase your realm.

The game will become far to easy if techs are eliminated, now you have the option with tech of increasing everything on a mass scale. Then you dont only have to up weapons and units, you have to consider both with a mathamatical mind.

Planning your moves in advance and having the ability to go against other realms using attack, defence race bonuses etc. Instead you can be an all rounder, so your not ony limited and stuck to race bonuses in attack and so on so forth.

Having the ability to calculate how best to spend naq is what separates newgrounds from the main server. I mainy play for the complexity of the game play, as does my friend Vegeta. [known on the forum and main as Lubu].

The games got strategy because of tech levels, it makes for an unpredicable game play strategically, thus being why its very interesting when opposed by other players. Without tech levels it makes newgrounds very similar game play to the main sever.

Instead of limiting each tech, how about making it so difficult to increase the techs normally after a while, that it makes sense to ascend.

Something like tripling/quadrupling the cost of techs at default, and each Ascension the cost is decreased by 10-20% or something. Therefore after 8 or so Ascensions the costs are the similar as now, then after it becomes even easier. Or you can change the bonus per Ascension according to how you see it.



I have no idea why someone would not ascend though. The straight multiplier for each Ascension is SUPER powerful. For example I got to 7th Ascension when the server Beta was in its first stage (before this bug reset week), and Adapt got to 8. He reached 8 before I started for 7, and when he did, the stats rivalved and surpassed those who decided not to ascend easily. He got back up to beat nearly everyone in stats (other than Replimagni and Zirtux) at the 8th Ascension, and with no bug help. By the time I finished 7 he was untouchable nearly, the unascended just could not keep up. Before the reset I myself was able to build up to around the size of the unascended also, in short time.

It's not those who don't ascend who is the problem when it comes to being overpowered, the ascended can easily catch up with the 2-18x multiplier for stats. Even if the unascended no lifes to big levels when people are ascending, the straight Ascension multi makes quick work to catch up!



I'll text Adapt if he is still awake as he's the newbie with the ideas (it's 1am here in Britain), to come on to see this, and see what he thinks of both our posts. Edit: He's already asleep, didn't reply to my text.

[Adapt]

[quote="Forum"]while I agree with you...
2 things.
1) simplicity (although techs are simply)
and more importantly:
2) huge accounts and disincentive to ascend.
I am thinking limiting tech to 100 per ascension or something.

any ideas on #2 ?

Limiting im not so sure on, 100s quite low. Well put it this way i managed playing the newgrounds, after the last big reset, to get to first place in attack within a matter of an hour of playing.
125,000,000 attack power, I mainly used all 3 market turns for 180,000,000 each.

I see your point though not just with normal players, paying players also could easily stay on the 1st ascension forever. I like your idea of a limit though but instead of limiting to 100 each ascension, you could make it so with the 1st has a max tech of 100, 2nd max tech 200, 3rd max tech 300, and so on. Then you'd also have to have a limit for the 18th ascension to be fair, say 1800 max tech level.

To be honest by the time everyone reaches 18th ascension, [like i heard from Lubu], on the main server you made more ascensions available, so everyone can again battle for first rank! Since every ascension is times by itself, it would make sense to have the tech the same.

Which would make for a interesting game, but with that you could easily tell the users level of ascension by their tech levels. Even though the tech would make it obvious, you can still tell with maths in the end, so it would make it easier for those of us that arent mathematicians in our spare time.

[LuBu]

Fool. I get you on and you don't even read my post! Last time I text you late. Even worse is we both completely said different things. It's going to be a lot take in......

[Adapt]

Instead of limiting each tech, how about making it so difficult to increase the techs normally after a while, that it makes sense to ascend.

Something like tripling/quadrupling the cost of techs at default, and each Ascension the cost is decreased by 10-20% or something. Therefore after 8 or so Ascensions the costs are the similar as now, then after it becomes even easier. Or you can change the bonus per Ascension according to how you see it.



I have no idea why someone would not ascend though. The straight multiplier for each Ascension is SUPER powerful. For example I got to 7th Ascension when the server Beta was in its first stage (before this bug reset week), and Adapt got to 8. He reached 8 before I started for 7, and when he did, the stats rivalved and surpassed those who decided not to ascend easily. He got back up to beat nearly everyone in stats (other than Replimagni and Zirtux) at the 8th Ascension, and with no bug help. By the time I finished 7 he was untouchable nearly, the unascended just could not keep up. Before the reset I myself was able to build up to around the size of the unascended also, in short time.

It's not those who don't ascend who is the problem when it comes to being overpowered, the ascended can easily catch up with the 2-18x multiplier for stats. Even if the unascended no lifes to big levels when people are ascending, the straight Ascension multi makes quick work to catch up!



I'll text Adapt if he is still awake as he's the newbie with the ideas (it's 1am here in Britain), to come on to see this, and see what he thinks of both our posts. Edit: He's already asleep, didn't reply to my text. [/quote]

Although you have a good idea, with users paying they could easily stay on the first ascension, and maybe even be on par with zirtux's power. There will always be users that dont want to acsend, and maybe even with a 100 tech limit on the 1st ascension users maybe able to stay there with a mass of units, unit production plus naq income.

Then you could have it the same, but besides Zirtux take an unbugged player like Lithium. He was only first ascension, id say he was about as powerful as you could be at 1st ascension.

I saw his stats and i knew from the amount my techs were costing he was hitting the limit to max power, without masses of naq to push further. If he had 750,000 population he would of been fine, but even saying that without the naq i gained through attack plus units from raids i never woud of become so powerful in the first place.

There were just variables in place then, that lead to my success. I prefer the limit idea i stated above, its the same as having the techs trippled in cost anyways. Means to an end, if the cost goes up to the amount of naq that the anti-covert used to cost it will be impossible to raise it anyways. Its the same as having the limit idea so either way its the same bu if it was choice id go limit idea everytime.

[Adapt]

Fool. I get you on and you don't even read my post! Last time I text you late. Even worse is we both completely said different things. It's going to be a lot take in......

yes i did! I read and replied.

[LuBu]

Instead of limiting each tech, how about making it so difficult to increase the techs normally after a while, that it makes sense to ascend.

Something like tripling/quadrupling the cost of techs at default, and each Ascension the cost is decreased by 10-20% or something. Therefore after 8 or so Ascensions the costs are the similar as now, then after it becomes even easier. Or you can change the bonus per Ascension according to how you see it.



I have no idea why someone would not ascend though. The straight multiplier for each Ascension is SUPER powerful. For example I got to 7th Ascension when the server Beta was in its first stage (before this bug reset week), and Adapt got to 8. He reached 8 before I started for 7, and when he did, the stats rivalved and surpassed those who decided not to ascend easily. He got back up to beat nearly everyone in stats (other than Replimagni and Zirtux) at the 8th Ascension, and with no bug help. By the time I finished 7 he was untouchable nearly, the unascended just could not keep up. Before the reset I myself was able to build up to around the size of the unascended also, in short time.

It's not those who don't ascend who is the problem when it comes to being overpowered, the ascended can easily catch up with the 2-18x multiplier for stats. Even if the unascended no lifes to big levels when people are ascending, the straight Ascension multi makes quick work to catch up!



I'll text Adapt if he is still awake as he's the newbie with the ideas (it's 1am here in Britain), to come on to see this, and see what he thinks of both our posts. Edit: He's already asleep, didn't reply to my text.

Although you have a good idea, with users paying they could easily stay on the first ascension, and maybe even be on par with zirtux's power. There will always be users that dont want to acsend, and maybe even with a 100 tech limit on the 1st ascension users maybe able to stay there with a mass of units, unit production plus naq income.

Then you could have it the same, but besides Zirtux take an unbugged player like Lithium. He was only first ascension, id say he was about as powerful as you could be at 1st ascension.

I saw his stats and i knew from the amount my techs were costing he was hitting the limit to max power, without masses of naq to push further. If he had 750,000 population he would of been fine, but even saying that without the naq i gained through attack plus units from raids i never woud of become so powerful in the first place.

There were just variables in place then, that lead to my success. I prefer the limit idea i stated above, its the same as having the techs trippled in cost anyways. Means to an end, if the cost goes up to the amount of naq that the anti-covert used to cost it will be impossible to raise it anyways. Its the same as having the limit idea so either way its the same bu if it was choice id go limit idea everytime.

Hard limits suck. It stumps growths and slows the server down. You have to take into account the server inflation (Naq etc). It's better to put such advancements to crawl than put limits, which may not work as well in years time when there are more resources in the game.

What happens in years when the tech limit you propose is easier to reach, with more Naq available on the server. Your way, even new accounts will find the first few limits ridiculously easy to get to later on. It also means new accounts in the future are forced to a tech limit where they need to ascend very high to catch up even in the slightest bit, which will take time and therefore they may always behind.

Atleast my way, people are forced to ascend now when Newgrounds starts because the server resources is going to be low, limiting the amount that can be spent on techs at the beggining. But in the distance future, new members can use the extra Naq around to buy higher techs which will then be more available because of the increase in Naq inflation (which they can't do with a limit), for a quick boost to maintain some catch up to those ascended higher than them (whom themselves will be limited by cost of higher techs), as they then ascend at their own pace. This is much more viable.

Also inflation willl mean that everyone can afford to max it out later on. What is the point of tech levels if everyone can afford to reach 100 easily, then 200, then 300? Everyone having max techs at their ascension and it easy to get. That's pretty much similar as having no tech levels at all, everyone has similar stats and there is not much disparately between accounts. Just max techs at every Ascension for all.

For that reason my idea, of slower advancement over fixed limit, is better. It needs to be semi-unlimited, with cost harsh cost limitations.



I ask you this, it makes sense; The inflation on the server isn't fixed, so how can the tech levels therefore be fixed and work?

[Adapt]

Instead of limiting each tech, how about making it so difficult to increase the techs normally after a while, that it makes sense to ascend.

Something like tripling/quadrupling the cost of techs at default, and each Ascension the cost is decreased by 10-20% or something. Therefore after 8 or so Ascensions the costs are the similar as now, then after it becomes even easier. Or you can change the bonus per Ascension according to how you see it.



I have no idea why someone would not ascend though. The straight multiplier for each Ascension is SUPER powerful. For example I got to 7th Ascension when the server Beta was in its first stage (before this bug reset week), and Adapt got to 8. He reached 8 before I started for 7, and when he did, the stats rivalved and surpassed those who decided not to ascend easily. He got back up to beat nearly everyone in stats (other than Replimagni and Zirtux) at the 8th Ascension, and with no bug help. By the time I finished 7 he was untouchable nearly, the unascended just could not keep up. Before the reset I myself was able to build up to around the size of the unascended also, in short time.

It's not those who don't ascend who is the problem when it comes to being overpowered, the ascended can easily catch up with the 2-18x multiplier for stats. Even if the unascended no lifes to big levels when people are ascending, the straight Ascension multi makes quick work to catch up!



I'll text Adapt if he is still awake as he's the newbie with the ideas (it's 1am here in Britain), to come on to see this, and see what he thinks of both our posts. Edit: He's already asleep, didn't reply to my text.

Although you have a good idea, with users paying they could easily stay on the first ascension, and maybe even be on par with zirtux's power. There will always be users that dont want to acsend, and maybe even with a 100 tech limit on the 1st ascension users maybe able to stay there with a mass of units, unit production plus naq income.

Then you could have it the same, but besides Zirtux take an unbugged player like Lithium. He was only first ascension, id say he was about as powerful as you could be at 1st ascension.

I saw his stats and i knew from the amount my techs were costing he was hitting the limit to max power, without masses of naq to push further. If he had 750,000 population he would of been fine, but even saying that without the naq i gained through attack plus units from raids i never woud of become so powerful in the first place.

There were just variables in place then, that lead to my success. I prefer the limit idea i stated above, its the same as having the techs trippled in cost anyways. Means to an end, if the cost goes up to the amount of naq that the anti-covert used to cost it will be impossible to raise it anyways. Its the same as having the limit idea so either way its the same bu if it was choice id go limit idea everytime.

Hard limits suck. It stumps growths and slows the server down. You have to take into account the server inflation (Naq etc). It's better to put such advancements to crawl than put limits, which may not work as well in years time when there are more resources in the game.

What happens in years when the tech limit you propose is easier to reach, with more Naq available on the server. Your way, even new accounts will find the first few limits ridiculously easy to get to later on. It also means new accounts in the future are forced to a tech limit where they need to ascend very high to catch up even in the slightest bit, which will take time and therefore they may always behind.

Atleast my way, people are forced to ascend now when Newgrounds starts because the server resources is going to be low, limiting the amount that can be spent on techs at the beggining. But in the distance future, new members can use the extra Naq around to buy higher techs which will then be more available because of the increase in Naq inflation (which they can't do with a limit), for a quick boost to maintain some catch up to those ascended higher than them (whom themselves will be limited by cost of higher techs), as they then ascend at their own pace. This is much more viable.

For that reason, my idea, of slower advancement over fixed limit, is better.



I ask you this, it makes sense; The inflation on the server isn't fixed, so how can the tech levels therefore be fixed and work?[/quote

Your whole point is based on years in advance, yes it will pose problems then, but your missing the point. In a couple of years time the admin coud quite easily lift the tech limits to eliminate your scenario from the equation.

The money inflation problem could be addressed by making users pay for any attacks, pay for spying. Or quite simply if money isnt banked in a certain period of time its automatically burnt.

or maybe after 18th ascension users lose all their naq aswell as techs units and so on, when ascending.

I think it doesnt matter how its approached, even with your ideas there are problems, some users will have tech levels so high no one will ever catch them. Having limits to start with isnt a problem.

There is no such thing as a perfect game, there are always problems and things that need improving. Fixing money in flation just means finding away to take away users naq to keep the amount of naq in the game low. User inflation is a different matter and the ony way to control that is to disable any account that hasnt been active for a while from being farmed or raided for naq or units, until they are active again. Put the account on vacation so they gain nothing while they're away.

Lots of ways to counter problems.........

[Forum]

it hit me at night, a <insert good metaphor here - but no simile, as i much prefer mataphors. and in fact if you can add a mixed metaphor 100 extra points> ...

Techs will have a limit of ( 100 x #ofTechs x timesAscended ) and I will add a 'reset all techs' button.

So you can always play with them The cost and number 100/asc comes down to configurable balance questions....

[LuBu]

The money inflation problem could be addressed by making users pay for any attacks, pay for spying. Or quite simply if money isnt banked in a certain period of time its automatically burnt.

That would never come to be. No Gatewars server has ever encountered such ideas from what i've known, and I doubt Newgrounds would. Inflation is natural, trying to take it away would cause more problems that good.

or maybe after 18th ascension users lose all their naq aswell as techs units and so on, when ascending.

What has that do with anything? I wasn't at any point talking specifically about the 18th Ascension, but every one.

I think it doesnt matter how its approached, even with your ideas there are problems, some users will have tech levels so high no one will ever catch them. Having limits to start with isnt a problem.

No, it wouldn't be so easy at all. Did you even read my ideas of increasing costs. Techs wouldn't be viable for months maybe a year, this wouldn't be a problem as it wont be building up as people will be ascending in the mean time. Techs start to really start coming into play with the increased tech costs when there is much more Naq around, probably around the point you talk about "lifting these limits" with fixed techs. So it's perfectly viable, heck even a similar idea as lifting them later when fixed, just a less instant way to do it.

There is no such thing as a perfect game, there are always problems and things that need improving. Fixing money in flation just means finding away to take away users naq to keep the amount of naq in the game low. User inflation is a different matter and the ony way to control that is to disable any account that hasnt been active for a while from being farmed or raided for naq or units, until they are active again. Put the account on vacation so they gain nothing while they're away.

What is your point here? I'm not talking about how user inflation needs to be controlled, but how it can be included to make techs more viable late, and less now/this year to make super unascended accounts. Ascending makes sense as tech costs limits are reached, without the fixed limits that may be annoying later!


Good to see Jason has made a decision. Can't wait to see it in effect.

[Adapt]

The money inflation problem could be addressed by making users pay for any attacks, pay for spying. Or quite simply if money isnt banked in a certain period of time its automatically burnt.

That would never come to be. No Gatewars server has ever encountered such ideas from what i've known, and I doubt Newgrounds would. Inflation is natural, trying to take it away would cause more problems that good.

or maybe after 18th ascension users lose all their naq aswell as techs units and so on, when ascending.

What has that do with anything? I wasn't at any point talking specifically about the 18th Ascension, but every one.

I think it doesnt matter how its approached, even with your ideas there are problems, some users will have tech levels so high no one will ever catch them. Having limits to start with isnt a problem.

No, it wouldn't be so easy at all. Did you even read my ideas of increasing costs. Techs wouldn't be viable for months maybe a year, this wouldn't be a problem as it wont be building up as people will be ascending in the mean time. Techs start to really start coming into play with the increased tech costs when there is much more Naq around, probably around the point you talk about "lifting these limits" with fixed techs. So it's perfectly viable, heck even a similar idea as lifting them later when fixed, just a less instant way to do it.

There is no such thing as a perfect game, there are always problems and things that need improving. Fixing money in flation just means finding away to take away users naq to keep the amount of naq in the game low. User inflation is a different matter and the ony way to control that is to disable any account that hasnt been active for a while from being farmed or raided for naq or units, until they are active again. Put the account on vacation so they gain nothing while they're away.

What is your point here? I'm not talking about how user inflation needs to be controlled, but how it can be included to make techs more viable late, and less now/this year to make super unascended accounts. Ascending makes sense as tech costs limits are reached, without the fixed limits that may be annoying later!


Good to see Jason has made a decision. Can't wait to see it in effect.

You've made no viable point to your reply, maybe you should read your own comment again. Youve only debunked my reply for your own satisfaction, as i stated before 'no matter how you play it there will be underlying problems period'.

I pointed out the flaws in your ideas, i was not not stating my own. I gave you reasons why your idea is just as disfunctional as my own. Your re-approaching your own comment to undermine my own, yet none of this you stated before.

If you cant see the flaws in your own ideas, then dont tell me about the flaws in mine. I am fully aware of the flaws in my ideas. Remember your post was only referring to years along the line.

[Forum]

ding ding ding.
to your corners....

tech setup done

[LuBu]

You've made no viable point to your reply, maybe you should read your own comment again. Youve only debunked my reply for your own satisfaction, as i stated before 'no matter how you play it there will be underlying problems period'.

Okay, opinion taken. I never said all problems will be gone, no idea where you got this. It's quite hypocritical for you to say all this though, as you have done all this many times already (writing off my opinions and replies rather than strengthening your own)..... Like this:

I pointed out the flaws in your ideas, i was not not stating my own

I like it how before you say i've only debunked your replies, yet you have always have done the same to my ideas in this topic (and just said so yourself). You can point out my flaws, but I can't do the same to your post? This is getting no where, we are just as bad as eachother!

Your re-approaching your own comment to undermine my own, yet none of this you stated before.

Is this wrong? I can state whatever I want, when I want, doesn't change anything......

If you cant see the flaws in your own ideas, then dont tell me about the flaws in mine. I am fully aware of the flaws in my ideas. Remember your post was only referring to years along the line.

Hard to take any of this seriously. I don't see at any point you pointing holes in any of your own ideas. You say you have, but where have you said you've agreed or are wrong? You are telling me i've done things that you have already done yourself, so it is pointless as we can both be accused about doing it and being narrow minded.......



This matters little Jason made his decision anyhow, hence my reply before; It was pointless argueing my points as valid as the change has been made by him. I think the change is good, so I don't care who is right or wrong.

This reply does nothing but say "you are so up your own ass that you can't see your own flaws in opinion", something I could say to you time and again. This is pointless. It is now just an debate about points of an argument, who listened to who's points and looked at the flaws of their own. It doesn't matter as Jason has changed it already. Let's just shake hands and make up already rather than be ignorant!

Please can a moderator lock this. We are both in the wrong, Jason has made the change, and life is good. Let's leave it at that.

[Adapt]

You've made no viable point to your reply, maybe you should read your own comment again. Youve only debunked my reply for your own satisfaction, as i stated before 'no matter how you play it there will be underlying problems period'.

Okay, opinion taken. I never said all problems will be gone, no idea where you got this. It's quite hypocritical for you to say all this though, as you have done all this many times already (writing off my opinions and replies rather than strengthening your own)..... Like this:

I pointed out the flaws in your ideas, i was not not stating my own

I like it how before you say i've only debunked your replies, yet you have always have done the same to my ideas in this topic (and just said so yourself). You can point out my flaws, but I can't do the same to your post? This is getting no where, we are just as bad as eachother!

Your re-approaching your own comment to undermine my own, yet none of this you stated before.

Is this wrong? I can state whatever I want, when I want, doesn't change anything......

If you cant see the flaws in your own ideas, then dont tell me about the flaws in mine. I am fully aware of the flaws in my ideas. Remember your post was only referring to years along the line.

Hard to take any of this seriously. I don't see at any point you pointing holes in any of your own ideas, you say you have but where have you said you've agreed? You are telling me i've done things that you have already done yourself, so it is pointless as we can both be accused about doing it and being narrow minded.......

This matters little Jason made his decision anyhow, hence my reply before; It was pointless argueing my points as vaild as the change has been made by him. I think the change is good, so I don't care who is right or wrong.



This reply does nothing but say "you are so up your own ass that you can't see your own flaws in opinion", something I could say to you time and again. This is pointless. It is now just an debate about points of an argument, who listened to who's points and looked at the flaws of their own. It doesn't matter as Jason has changed it already. Let's just shake hands and make up already rather than be ignorant!

Please can a moderator lock this. We are both in the wrong, Jason has made the change, and life is good. Let's leave it at that.

If you so into dropping the whole thing, why'd you go to so much effort to re-engage the above arguement?

I wasnt interested in replying to your comment in the first place, but since you insisted in your comment that you'd text me and maybe id even reply to you both. To take it further you even undermined my intellet by insinuating im a newbie, just empathizing that was deliberate to make me look like i didnt know what i was talking about.

I my not be a veteran of the main server, but i voided my opinion across like we agree'd, if you want to avoid future conflict dont ask me to reply your comments, we maybe friends but we dont always share the same opinions.

We can agree to disagree and call it quits.....