Re: I would like to lodge a complaint.
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:46 pm
Please, if you think calling someone retarded isn't abuse then... well I don't know, but you need to do some more thinking.
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WoofyBear wrote:Psyko wrote:I would like to clear up the information regarding your warnings. It took me a second look and a clear head to see everything in your case.
1) You only have 1 warning
2) This warning was issued by Empy.
3) That was for Language (Abuse/Racism) - stating that you suppose the person in question actually is/was retarded - this one you challenge
sidenote: This warning was issued before BMMJ saw your original question regarding retardation and issued his verbal warning to you.
4) The other warnings issued by BMMJ and Empy were Verbals and do not add "points" against your account.
a. This includes the Verbal for Spam, the Verbal for "Engrish", and the Verbal for the retardation question
As to the stipulations for the Spam Verbal...
I can tell you I have never heard of a user note being edited. It may not be possible. Though notes could be added to provide an alternate post as an example. Really though, the Verbal does not count against you, and, as you admitted to being off topic within the thread in question, I do not see the importance of swapping out which quote is mentioned. Most mods merely look at the notes and not the quotes; those are usually examined by the Ombudsman during an appeal, or the GMs/Admins when looking into a user's dispute of a warning.
Now, given the nature of your actual board warning, the one where you did not merely ask a question, but made a statement as to the mental capacity of another forum user, I find that you will need to provide a slightly different clarification for making that post than you did in regards to BMMJ's comments about you questioning the person's mental capacity, as that has no bearing on the post in question.
The warning/point or whatever I got that Empy gave me due to me making my assumption about Roberts current mental state is directly related to the one BMMJ gave me which I believe is fully explained. If we are not as players allowed to make assessments of peoples current state be it physical mental social or emotional we are going no where as a society. There are examples in this section alone (and not necessarily in this particular thread) where mods themselves make assesment (judgement calls about people and their opinions of them) and their posts stand. They have also in my opinion and that of others that have posted in these threads and people I have spoken to) belittling to the uses and in no way appreciable polite and yet these also stand.
I do not feel that this is fair and just that the mods are allowed to do this with everyone over a few post on one page (make a judgement call about others "condition" or rather "opinion of their condition") and yet after me reading over 100 pages of a thread in which Robert posts I am not allowed to make my own opinion known when I feel I have asked a valid question and pretty much gotten my answer by seeing the same pattern of behavior occurring.
I maintain that my question was valid, it could be interpreted as rude but apparently rudeness is not against the rules here. Stating an outright insult or reviling private information about someone that they themselves have not relieved publicly in this forum is.. I have broken no rule is this. I have conceded that two of the 4 have merit in some form or another. I disagree completely with the two I am contesting. I can point out a post in Empy's feedback where someone actually called him a "tard" which i would consider an insult as it is a slang derivative of the TECHNICAL term I used when asking my question and then making my opinion known based on the response I got.. However, he, as with examples you gave me in chat covered it up with an emoticon as if saying it was a joke. This in MY opinion is done to skirt a rule. My post was not and consideration of the full events should be considered. Just because Robert chose to respond to me in another thread does not mean I have not gotten, what in my opinion was his answer, by interpreting his actions after my post in which I posed my question to him.
I think my position is clear. I contest the warnings/points related to me asking Robert a question and then interpreting his actions as my answer and stating my opinion. If we can not state an opinion here then simple comments like "You losts 200 mil spies in 3 minutes.. you suck". Because that would be a judgement call would it not? Based, once again, on someone's actions.
I have read more in this section within the last few hours and have seen, what in my opinon, is further evidence of my opinion. I do not know 100% that Robert has a mental illness as I have not gotten a DIRECT response from him, however from reading his posts in this section alone when he was banned it is a safe assumption and now I feel I know better how to handle situations with him. It was not meant as an insult more of an interpretation of his actions and me using that to form my conclusion and stating my conclusion. Any reasonable person would come to the same conclusion given the same information of events. Since I made my assumption based on his actions and no outside information, I can not further be warned for relieving any private information about him publicly.
Zeratul wrote:It is not possible for anyone in the forum chain of command to edit user notes.
The only way to alter them, if possible at all, is through direct changes to the database. Access to that is restricted to the extremely few AdminJason grants it to.
In other words: no, user notes are not open for modification.
WoofyBear wrote:Psyko wrote:I would like to clear up the information regarding your warnings. It took me a second look and a clear head to see everything in your case.
1) You only have 1 warning
2) This warning was issued by Empy.
3) That was for Language (Abuse/Racism) - stating that you suppose the person in question actually is/was retarded - this one you challenge
sidenote: This warning was issued before BMMJ saw your original question regarding retardation and issued his verbal warning to you.
4) The other warnings issued by BMMJ and Empy were Verbals and do not add "points" against your account.
a. This includes the Verbal for Spam, the Verbal for "Engrish", and the Verbal for the retardation question
As to the stipulations for the Spam Verbal...
I can tell you I have never heard of a user note being edited. It may not be possible. Though notes could be added to provide an alternate post as an example. Really though, the Verbal does not count against you, and, as you admitted to being off topic within the thread in question, I do not see the importance of swapping out which quote is mentioned. Most mods merely look at the notes and not the quotes; those are usually examined by the Ombudsman during an appeal, or the GMs/Admins when looking into a user's dispute of a warning.
Now, given the nature of your actual board warning, the one where you did not merely ask a question, but made a statement as to the mental capacity of another forum user, I find that you will need to provide a slightly different clarification for making that post than you did in regards to BMMJ's comments about you questioning the person's mental capacity, as that has no bearing on the post in question.
The warning/point or whatever I got that Empy gave me due to me making my assumption about Roberts current mental state is directly related to the one BMMJ gave me which I believe is fully explained. If we are not as players allowed to make assessments of peoples current state be it physical mental social or emotional we are going no where as a society. There are examples in this section alone (and not necessarily in this particular thread) where mods themselves make assesment (judgement calls about people and their opinions of them) and their posts stand. They have also in my opinion and that of others that have posted in these threads and people I have spoken to) belittling to the uses and in no way appreciable polite and yet these also stand.
I do not feel that this is fair and just that the mods are allowed to do this with everyone over a few post on one page (make a judgement call about others "condition" or rather "opinion of their condition") and yet after me reading over 100 pages of a thread in which Robert posts I am not allowed to make my own opinion known when I feel I have asked a valid question and pretty much gotten my answer by seeing the same pattern of behavior occurring.
I maintain that my question was valid, it could be interpreted as rude but apparently rudeness is not against the rules here. Stating an outright insult or reviling private information about someone that they themselves have not relieved publicly in this forum is.. I have broken no rule is this. I have conceded that two of the 4 have merit in some form or another. I disagree completely with the two I am contesting. I can point out a post in Empy's feedback where someone actually called him a "tard" which i would consider an insult as it is a slang derivative of the TECHNICAL term I used when asking my question and then making my opinion known based on the response I got.. However, he, as with examples you gave me in chat covered it up with an emoticon as if saying it was a joke. This in MY opinion is done to skirt a rule. My post was not and consideration of the full events should be considered. Just because Robert chose to respond to me in another thread does not mean I have not gotten, what in my opinion was his answer, by interpreting his actions after my post in which I posed my question to him.
I think my position is clear. I contest the warnings/points related to me asking Robert a question and then interpreting his actions as my answer and stating my opinion. If we can not state an opinion here then simple comments like "You losts 200 mil spies in 3 minutes.. you suck". Because that would be a judgement call would it not? Based, once again, on someone's actions.
I have read more in this section within the last few hours and have seen, what in my opinon, is further evidence of my opinion. I do not know 100% that Robert has a mental illness as I have not gotten a DIRECT response from him, however from reading his posts in this section alone when he was banned it is a safe assumption and now I feel I know better how to handle situations with him. It was not meant as an insult more of an interpretation of his actions and me using that to form my conclusion and stating my conclusion. Any reasonable person would come to the same conclusion given the same information of events. Since I made my assumption based on his actions and no outside information, I can not further be warned for relieving any private information about him publicly.
Empy wrote:Please, if you think calling someone retarded isn't abuse then... well I don't know, but you need to do some more thinking.
The example you quoted is not the same thing as directly calling someone retarded. Calling someone retarded is a personal insult.WoofyBear wrote:Yet people can say something like "what did you do that for? Are you crazy?" same thing, someone making a conclusion based on previous observation. Why did you not edit out JTs post in Empy's feedback when he called Empy a tard? "TARD" is a slang term and IS an insult. My comment was moderated and edited.. yet JT's comment in Empy's feedback is not... is that perhaps favoritism or is it just an example of the moderators not being able to do everything on the forum and some things being overlooked because moderators are not infallible and their decisions are sometimes incorrect?
Pointless. What you just said was pointless, without point. Jedi~Tank is not a party in this appeal, what he is currently doing is not related to the warnings you received. Nothing he did in other sections is material when judging if the post you linked is against any rules, except in very specific circumstances which do not apply here.WoofyBear wrote:(this is not off topic but will directly relate to this as proof that the mods can make mistakes and are not not perfect) Why is it that JT comes on here and then a blanket statement has to be issued to prevent spam and then he gets in this section again and creates not one but TWO threads in this section trying to derail my appeal? The two threads were, however, removed. Then he goes in a public section and create ANOTHER thread with a link to this one mocking not only the moderators by moving to a section that is not moderated by the same mods and continues, but does this in a way that is blatant character assassination and harassment? You see, since he did this in different sections, the same mods don't realize what he has done and things slip by.
You're right I didn't read the post you made in BMMJ's section, and I can't even name the section it was in either. Again, Jedi~Tank's posts are not material here. I'll humor you for a tiny bit though... Him trolling you is not against the rules so even if he does it in every section of the forums it doesn't change anything. Off-topic threads and posts are equally prosecuted and documented wherever they're made, so it doesn't matter if he does a little in each section it adds up all the same.WoofyBear wrote:By this same logic, the mods did not read all my posts in the order in which they were made.. only as they were made in their section and things were taken out of context. Jt (it is my observation and reasonable conclusion) knows this and exploits this to continue spamming in the same way circumventing blanket moderation of spam and keeping the same spam going but in different sections preventing more sever reaction from any given mod as he simply continues in another mod's section. I am not going after JT personally HERE, but just establishing that the mods can and do make mistakes as they are people and not infallible. (below is an example of him doing this if taken in context with the threads that mods in this section were forced to remove and shows how this system can cause mistakes by mods and can allow users to exploit it to continue their abuse.
I don't care if you think calling someone a retard was just an observation, it's still an insult. "Observations" (if you want to call this that) can be insults, even if you think you conducted some sort of scientific study here to come to your amateur conclusion. Even if I had read the post you made in the other section first I would've given you the exact same warning. Were I to mod them in chronological order both myself here's what would happen; you'd get a verbal warning for abuse, the same one BMMJ gave you, and you would get a Board Warning for abuse, the same one I gave you.WoofyBear wrote:Me pointing out what i see as abuse/harassment/spam that JT has done is not an attack on him or a meant to derail this thread in any way but is meant to prove that the mods do not follow users posts in chronological order and since mods do not know what is going on in another mod's section, mistakes can be made.. my case is that this time, it was a mistake that empy did not know my previous question I made in another thread. If he had, he may not have given me the warning and understood that I was drawing a conclusion based on my observations. In JTs case, he will push as far as he can in one mod's area before getting a warning and then take it to another mod's area a do the same. Because the mods "do not pay attention to other mod's sections" a mistake was made and i was punished.. and JT exploits this behavior to continue the same line of spamming/harassment/abuse on other users. This proves that mods can and do make mistakes sometimes because they do not have all the information.. sometimes just because they are human. If I can not appeal the warnings, mistakes can continue on the warning level and by the time it gets to actual points, I have to go back and "prove innocence" rather than the mods use what I would consider common sense and accept they are human and look at a rational and reasonable explanation rather than just saying "you said this in my section and I dont mod other sections so I don't know about that... "
I agree verbal warnings should be allowed to be appealed.WoofyBear wrote:Verbal warnings can not be appealed? Well, you get enough verbal warnings you get issued a point.. you get enough points you get banned... Well, I have already established that mods can and sometimes do make mistakes and over look things..
No, I didn't make a mistake. The post I quoted in the verbal warning you received was off topic.WoofyBear wrote:Like perhaps when Empy just takes a random post I made that was on topic and used that one to quote and warn me for spam. Yes, a simple mistake, but a mistake nonetheless and proof the mods are not infallible. If you can not appeal the warnings which could have been made as a mistake (since mods do make mistakes) and you get enough of these warnings (and perhaps some that were actually deserved) you will get points.... you can appeal the points.. but you would not have gotten the actual points if the mistakes had not been made by the mods with the WARNING. This is not a fair system if the mistakes from the mods can not be corrected at the warning stage. Now, because I have all these warnings and I already have a point, If i get more (deserved or made by mistake of another mod) I will accumulate more points... This is a problem in the system that is not allocating for MOD error and punishing the user as a result.
No you're incorrect. As I understand it, you asked R0B3RT if he was retarded. Which in my opinion is abuse. Furthermore you went on to state in your post to clarify that this wasn't actually an insult but just a question. That's the part BMMJ was talking about, you knew what you said would almost certainly be taken as an insult which in his mind only solidified the fact it was abuse.WoofyBear wrote:The mistake I made, according to bmmj, was not that I asked the question but the fact i tried to make sure it was understood it was, in fact, a question. This landed me a warning.
No, you're wrong. It wouldn't have mattered where you posted the insult you made, it was still an insult. Whether or not it was a conclusion you came to doesn't matter. Your logic is illogical. Just because you "gathered evidence" and came to a "conclusion" or however you want to spin it the fact remains; you called him retarded, that's abuse.WoofyBear wrote:I made a mistake by posting my conclusion to my question in another thread and not the thread of the original question. That is what landed me warning from Empy. Now, If i could appeal the original warning by explaining in a reasonable way that it was not an insult, (like empy did in my complaint towards him) then perhaps bmmj would remove that warning as I removed my complaint from Empy after his, what i feel, was a reasonable explanation. If Users can accept a reasonable explanation from a mod, mods should accept a reasonable explanation from a user. If Bmmj does accept my reasonable explanation, and the system allowed him to correct this warning Then I would not have so many warnings that are not deserved. Now, if bmmj does accept my reasonable explanation for my question and empy could perhaps understand that my post in the thread he moderated was in fact not meant as an insult but rather me stating a conclusion I had come to given the available information (continued actions by Robert). Then I would be able to have that particular warning removed. (fewer warnings accumulating due to error means less chance of someone getting a reputation as a disruption and repeat offender and there is less reason for appeals on points and bans by people who don't really deserve them.
All pointless, you called him retarded. Doesn't matter if you came to a conclusion based on life experiences, or whatever.WoofyBear wrote:It does not take a degree for someone to make a judgement call on something if given enough information and life experience. People here are not aware of my life experience or degrees and I have not posted them in this forum and if they state it here it is breaking the rules of reveling private information on another user.. I will, however, say that I have quite a fair bit of experience in this area with people and leave it at that. If a mod wishes to know so that they can have further back ground information they can get me on MSN as i do not wish my private life to be made public here. If you see a cup of dark liquid with steam coming off, and smell coffee, it is safe to assume there is hot coffee in it. I made a judgement call based on the posts I have seen and then flat out asked a question. I see the same behavior AGAIN and determine my assumption on it probably is true and state my conclusion. The only thing wrong with that is the fact that I posted my conclusion when I was upset and a thread modded by another moderator who did not see the original question. I mean come on! Do I REALLY have to explain the very rudimentary concepts of people LEARNING by observation? (observe, make assumption <hypothesis>, wait more and observe, draw conclusion) to people that are actually supposed to already know these things since they are "in control positions"????? REALLY? (technically you are supposed to make hypothesis (assumption), experiment (view available date), wait for results (view more of the data as it is made available in the process) and then draw conclusion but any reasonable person should be able to see this and should not need explanation to people who are supposed to have a fair grasp of English and enough experience to moderate a forum)
Calling someone a retard is abuse. Simple as that.WoofyBear wrote:Perhaps it was wrong for me to post my conclusion. HOWEVER, asking the question was not an insult but what I felt was a valid question. If I had asked the size of a certain sexual organ, yes, i see how this could be considered an insult but a sexual organ was not what was being questioned nor observed. His behavior was, and the reason for his behavior is the reason I asked about his metal capability. I even made sure in the post it was understood it as a question and not insult. Some may consider it rude but it was not an insult and not my intention to insult. If I had wanted to insult him you would have seen filtered words all over my post (which, though words are filtered the meaning of the statement with them contained is still quite clear and insults are CONSTANTLY done this way here and people get away with that "CRAP" because the actual word used was filtered.
Now, I only asked the question ONCE. The modding/warnings issued for my comments were not done in the chronological order in which the posts were made. Timestamps on the posts and the timestamps on the user notes on my account will confirm. If my posts were followed in order I made them rather than in the order they appeared in the threads, it would be clear that I made no insult.
Faulty logic. Just because something is not on the filter doesn't mean it's not abuse when directed towards someone else.WoofyBear wrote:As far as me bringing this to this section and quoting the questions "Are you slightly retarded" is simple. It is not an insult, and if the moderators really considered it an insult then it would be a filtered work like racists insults and swear words are. I mean come on... People are CONSTANTLY making comments with filtered words here and the context of the sentence is quite clear and those comments are not removed. I have already shown here in a previous post in this thread and linked to that post an example of someone asking the SAME question of someone else and that post was NOT edited or removed!
All questions aren't insults, but the one you asked was.WoofyBear wrote:Asking someone a personal question is not an insult in this case, especially if you clarify that its a question and not an insult. If you go making assumptions that every question someone may ask is an insult what would you think if you were in a conversation on msn with someone and they ask you what gender you are? Are you going to say that this is offensive? A form of sexual harassment, or a simple side question during the coarse of a conversation so that the person you are talking to can try to understand the background a bit more and try to understand the other persons point of view based on your experience with people of a specific gender and how they tend to react to certain subjects. you know.. preparing yourself to continue the conversation and be able to continue and better understand a person's behavior and point of view based on your experience and then their reactions after your question. The question could have been, after a long conversation not related to sex in the slightest.. "are you a female" or, "are you a male?". You might want to say I am insulting you either way depending your gender and how you tend to view the other gender.. it is determined by the wording.. so to be SPECIFIC, I made certain that someone with the most moderate English skills (English being required on this board) would understand it was a question.
Nope observations aren't against the rules, but the OBSERVATION you made was.WoofyBear wrote:ENGLISH is required on this board, and with a reasonable person reading mine and Roberts posts in the order they were made (all sections) they would have seen that I was making an observation. OBSERVATIONS are not against the rules... Stating your observations are not against the rules. Am I going to be warned for saying someone is too slow when banking? Am I going to be warned if i say someone's is is retarded with their banking skills? Means the same in this context.. slow... but could be taking as an insult IF the second was used and no one had the back ground information.. ie attack logs proving every time this person farmed I hit them before they banked. Saying someone is a bit slow is not an insult and warn-able offense. Because I ask a REASON for their slowness I get punished. Either way, its an observation. It is an ENGLISH word and if you want to filter it as an insult, then do so. But punishing me for something that is not against the rules is wrong.