The Great Purgatory Debate

[Sylus]

After further discussion with purg players it was decided that a 48 hour delay (which we all believe is necessary to prohibit realm abuse as happened years ago) could not be reconciled with the current boot function. It quickly becomes apparent you can't enforce a delay when there is a boot limit that immediately removes you from the realm.

However we did discuss that perhaps inspiration from norm should be used.

What is proposed is the removal of the current boot function, and in its stead a purgatory plague is introduced. At what is now the purgatory boot limit, there be a plague that kills 100% (- 1 unit) of units over the cap. At the end of 48 hours if account is still in the plague threshold, it is then booted to norm.

This at least I believe reconciles the existing realm shift delay without enabling players to abuse an auto boot limit, whilst simultaneously preventing anyone to bypass the purgatory army size limit.

Happy to hear counter points (however I will preempt the "larger purgatory players will abuse this" by saying how? Active purg players already manage the cap successfully on a daily basis, and it prohibits anyone from growing higher than what is allowed anyway)

[Arkenius]

off-topic: I cant believe you still hold a grudge when I massed you guys. No retaliation pisses you off? Then come to normal. I dont mind

on topic: You already got your +60 AT and covert updates. Don't get greedy now. I don't see a reason why more updates should be implemented again so soon after the last ones, for just 6 players... Since basicaly perg is mostly maelstrom and a couple of few semi-active. Rest are inactives for years... But that is just my opinion. It's up to the admin anyway.

Isn't perg more like a training area? Why do you want to change it in such way that it becomes a second "normal" ... What would be the point then? You can simply move to normal if you want a larger game scale... Nobody is keeping you in pergatory.

PS: I am just saying. I don't want to pick a fight or anything. After all you said you don't mind counterpoints

[Arkenius]

Well this is a major abuse that has continued for far too long.
[spoiler]

11:42 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Invidus [ MAELSTROM - Envy] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:41 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Invidus [ MAELSTROM - Envy] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:41 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Invidus [ MAELSTROM - Envy] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:41 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Invidus [ MAELSTROM - Envy] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:41 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Master Kavar [ MAELSTROM - Sin] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:41 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Master Kavar [ MAELSTROM - Sin] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:40 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Master Kavar [ MAELSTROM - Sin] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:39 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Master Kavar [ MAELSTROM - Sin] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:38 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:38 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:38 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:38 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:38 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:38 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:37 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:37 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:37 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:37 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:37 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:37 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Loss
11:37 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:36 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:36 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:36 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:36 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:35 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Loss
11:35 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Loss
11:35 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:35 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:34 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:34 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:34 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Loss
11:34 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:34 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:33 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:32 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Loss
11:32 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:32 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 3 Win
11:32 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 15 Win
11:31 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Glownut [ MAELSTROM - Vicious] attack 15 Win
11:30 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:30 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:30 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:30 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:30 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:30 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:30 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:30 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:29 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:29 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:29 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:29 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:29 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:29 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:29 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:29 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:29 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:28 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:28 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:28 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:28 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Leucetius [ MAELSTROM - Assassin] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:27 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Leucetius [ MAELSTROM - Assassin] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:27 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Leucetius [ MAELSTROM - Assassin] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:27 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Leucetius [ MAELSTROM - Assassin] ConquerPlanet 15 Loss
11:26 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:26 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:26 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win
11:26 Suinekra [ Forgotten Serenity ] Sylus [ MAELSTROM - Bloody] attack 3 Win

[/spoiler]

Having someone empty turns on people in purgatory, then quickly raid over the boot limit, deliberately negating any form of retaliation is obnoxious. Especially when planets are involved.

This has been spoken about before in many previous threads (which had primarily concerned planet sniping then raiding over the purgatory threshold), but obviously it's a game abuse; and purgatory is entitled to the same protection as norm (which reads similar in the game updates).

I propose a 48 hour freeze on an accounts movements from realms if they have used any turns, PPT, or Vac in purgatory. If this means freezing UP and raid functions at the boot limit to stop people exceeding the purgatory limit, then so be it.

I disagree with this. You have plenty of protection being in perg, you don't need anymore.

+1 ...well said!

I suggest maybe a limitation to planet defences. Since it's perg. Turns are limited. Less stats should be a good idea. You can hid 8 duals in perg with 3tril def on all... That isn't fair. Even with 8x15At attacks you can't scrach one. Why should you get even more boosts?

Also sitting in perg with 6tril strike or defence + extras from planets isn't fair either. Where is the competition? You ruined it from the start... I, even fully ascended, have to train around 18mil supers to hope to barely win a hit on that defence. I know what I am talking now because I was doing that the other day... that is almost 1/3 of total army already... Think about this aspect as well.

Pergatory doesn't need any more upgrades. In fact, it definately needs more DOWNgrades...

There must be a balance. Your requirement for constant upgrades is ruining that balance.


PS: If you really want a retaliation so bad, then come to normal. nobody is keeping you in pergatory.

[Tetrismonkey]

I'm still blown Away that admin walks in and makes an update to perhaps with a weeks time and yet can't find the time to remove known scripters from the game? Another great example of the minority getting something while the majority pays.

[Arkenius]

When perg was created so many years ago, it was perfect. Exacly what it was intended for. nothing more and nothing less... But then people got greedy and asked for stuff that ruinned it.
That is my opinion and I won't change it.

[Tetrismonkey]

Just thinking out load here, but when you are attacked and they run to main, you have the same option and can follow them to retaliate yes?

[Arkenius]

yes! That is my point! Nobody is keeping them in PERGATORY!! So stop the Q_Q

So what if me or anybody else massed you? Come after me in normal. Stop throwing with rocks from perg just to look good.

"They hurt me and run away! buu-huu!"
Cut the childlish act already. The way I went out , you can as well. raid and come after me or whoever... and if you want to retaliate so bad, then who is stopping you? You already have the means to do it... Why ask for more stuff just to compensate your incompetence?

Sorry, I dont want to be rude. I am just trying to show my point of view here. But the subject Sylus started is childlish and out of place. It's something like: "I failed! He won! Hit him with a hammer so I wont fail next time!" Don't get offended now

[Juliette]

Just thinking out load here, but when you are attacked and they run to main, you have the same option and can follow them to retaliate yes?

Only way to 'run' to Main is by raiding through the Perg limit, automatically kicking you out. That is childishly easy. If you have not attacked anyone for 48 hours (no one has this) you can move out of Pergatory when you wish. Otherwise the only way is through raiding (and then it will take another 48 hours before you can move back).

[wasmguy]

I think the point of this was fairness, if it takes 48 hours hours to get in, it should take 48 hours to leave. The cap boot is a way around this. We see it as a bug, you see it as a feature. Most "features" in the past have eventually been phased out to make the playing field more fair.

Lets not get drawn into who did what or who has what, said what etc too much please. But on a sidenote, I do agree a bit more action with scripters would be nice to see.

[Arkenius]

Fair point. But the fact remains that in this case, the same way one player left, so can the other player. It's not like the 2nd player gets a restriction and bam... cant leave. I know perg is nice and cosy. I played there couple of years. Nobody can stop you from coming in or leaving anytime you want. So another fix or update or whatever you want to call it, would be useless. imo

Since normal is on a whole other level... that's why a restriction for 48 hours was placed. Simply because you could take lets say a planet from normal and then jump in perg and add some tril def and nobody will take it there since there is an AT restriction.

That is why perg doesnt need a 48 hours restriction. Because you cannot take a planet with lets say 2tril def in a day and run in normal.

You already have protections over protections over protections in pergatory. Making another set of protection will simply make it unplayable... and that way its purpose will be gone.

You understand what I mean?

[Sylus]

Both use the irrefutable "well you chase them if you really want to retaliate" argument to defend inter-realm sniping

Oh brilliant. You're making this easy. If we are to take this argument seriously, I am happy. By all means, let's do this.

Let's follow this amazing argument:

A realm shift delay in purgatory is unnecessary.
It is unnecessary because all players have the option to change realm.
Changing realm, and all negative notions attached are to be disregarded as it is equal.
Thus, anyone who can change realm regardless of associated implications are not entitled to protection from interrealm sniping.

Ipso facto: The current 48 hour delay preventing people shifting from norm to purgatory is unnecessary and unwarranted. And Arkenius and Tetris Monkey, with my support seek it's removal.

Submits an argument defending hit and run tactics, then goes further and argues that planet defences in purgatory should be further restricted, to enable inter-realm planet sniping, which he has attempted to do on numerous occasions. And then used terms like balance, and protection, to defend his argument, and does this sincerely

*chuckles*

Oh please, do go on. Tell me more of this balance.

Oh and if you'd like to read the thread before asking questions that have already been covered ad nauseam (nature of purgatory, it's purpose, etc), we'd all be greatly appreciative.


Ok, I'm done dancing around this:

Tetris Monkey. You have demonstrated a severe agitation with maelstrom, and a deeply ingrained hatred of purgatory. You have incessantly proclaimed your desire to see purgatory removed from the game, despite the consequences upon those who play in the realm. We know your agenda, and what you seek, it is only logical that your opposition to purgatory reform is inextricably linked to your desire to see it dissolve. You have failed to address every argument I have raised in this regard, and so I would ask you one question, one that needs addressing more than anything else.

Why should anyone listen to anything you have to say on the matter?

We don't ask the Israeli government's opinion on issues of Palestinian mental health. Why would we listen to you about purgatory?

But enough about that. You know what the hilarious thing is. I don't have to read your arguments on a purgatory delay. Why? Because it isn't a suggestion. This is an already implemented game update as of TWO YEARS AGO. This was discussed. Signed, sealed and delivered.

Evidence:

https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=160&t=167492
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=158&t=173640

[on moving from purgatory to norm] Needs 48 hours of no attacking, ppt or vacation, to LEAVE (used to be just to get there...now it is also to leave). The curtain between realms of existence requires a clean soul!

So you taking issue with the legitimacy of a delay at all is irrelevant; the suggestion is how best to prohibit abuse. Thus unless you discuss the suggestion, I don't have to read anything you write. This is an exploit to bypass the existing restriction on shifting between realms. As it is an exploit/bug. This needs to be corrected. We have given some ideas on how to eliminate further abuse, such as a purgatory plague.
If Tetris Monkey, Arkenius, and anyone else would like to make a case to remove the already implemented 48 hour delay. By all means please do so. However the burden of proof for a change is not on us. It is on you.

Good Day. I said good day!
-Sylus

[Arkenius]

Did you even read what we wrote or you just went locco because you lack argument?

Try to keep it clean. Everyone said their opinions as civil as posible, except you. Am I missing something here?

Grow up... and enjoy the game.

Best Regards,
Arkenius

PS: That was a really poor defence of your cause btw. I doub you convinced anyone... heh
Since aparently it is imposible to discus this matter in a civil and mature way, I cba to bother anymore.

[Sylus]

Yes. I read everything you wrote. And your arguments were few. Hidden amongst your thinly veiled ego stroking was the argument I quoted above. I suppose it's easier to pretend to be mature when you're incapable of rebuttal and critical thinking.

Loco? Why? Because I bolded it? Because I increased the font? I use it to highlight key aspects of block posts. Contempt and derision yes. But it's inescapable when I have to reiterate the same points over and over again.

I do get such a kick out of putting people's posts next to each other when they try and take the high road after already being half way down the low road...
[spoiler]

Try to keep it clean.

Everyone said their opinions as civil as posible, except you.

Grow up...

Previously on unintelligent hypocritical posts:

"They hurt me and run away! buu-huu!"
Cut the childlish act already. The way I went out , you can as well. raid and come after me or whoever... and if you want to retaliate so bad, then who is stopping you? You already have the means to do it... Why ask for more stuff just to compensate your incompetence?

Sorry, I dont want to be rude. I am just trying to show my point of view here. But the subject Sylus started is childlish and out of place. It's something like: "I failed! He won! Hit him with a hammer so I wont fail next time!" Don't get offended now

How is that throne of hyprocrisy? Comfortable?[/spoiler]

[Tetrismonkey]

I lack the ability to critically think? You have yet to suggest an idea that benifits more than just the few. You want change and updates, then stop catering to a select few and look past your personal agenda. Yes I hate perhaps. I see it as some where for people to hide. You keep asking for more protection. Stop. When your ready to discuss a real update, then ill take what you have seriously.

[BenjaminMS]

ROFLMAO? OK, this gets laughable. So just because Arkenius used something that has been there since about the introduction of Purgatory, you want to close that route down since Ark invested time and resources to use that 'quick leave'-route? It has always been there, and it's not a bug - just a feature that you either can ignore and then walk into, or if you want to do what Ark did, use.
Purgatory is more or less a 'safe heaven' from Main. Hence why the VERY strict regulations on getting in. On request of Purgatory Ascenders/MAELSTROM, also there did get an 'getting out'-punishment of sorts. (Something I still fail to see the reason for, since someone already took the effort to get in which costs quite some )
So effectively you want a realm where you don't want to be able to get hurt without retaliation and where getting in is already causing severe tactical problems? Get real kid

Purgatory already has a LOT of protection - astonishingly much so to prevent 'top players' in Purg from getting effectively hit actually. Way more then Main will ever give. If you want to have an own playground where noone 'evil' disturbs you and you can play an 'King of the Hill', create your own damn game. Till that time, you'll have to do with the current system - asking for more is just ludicrious.