The Great Purgatory Debate

[Sylus]

Please leave your hate, rhetoric, and trashtalking at the door. Now onto business.

The story so far and mandatory reading
(else we will just say the same things over and over, if you reference a previous argument as a new suggestion, I will simply quote all retorts from previous threads; although I include similar arguments in my post as a platform for discussion):

[spoiler]https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=193832&hilit=purgatory
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=193832&hilit=purgatory
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=183905&hilit=purgatory
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=181260&hilit=purgatory
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=160&t=158763&hilit=purgatory
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=160&t=159515&hilit=purgatory
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=160&t=150634&hilit=purgatory
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=160&t=125914&hilit=purgatory
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=160&t=121732&hilit=purgatory
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=160&t=94636&hilit=purgatory

And the Admin changes circa 2008
https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=160&t=129244&hilit=purgatory[/spoiler]

Regarding these threads I'd like to say a couple of things. Firstly, you'll notice the vast majority of suggestions are made by those who have no interest in playing purgatory. This has been a major issue for me personally, and in speaking with many active purg players, the overwhelming belief has been that their opinion does not get treated with the same consideration, and this has led to a suite of changes that in combination with the hatred spewing forth from norm players (the height of Maelstrom, and a quick search for Maelstrom on this forum will reveal the intent of most players), has ultimately led to players abandoning the game. And I don't think I'm alone in saying, this is the opposite result that anyone wants. In all honesty, this game has been crying out for a representative on behalf of purgatory, as it stands, there is none.

Second, I'd like to say that there is a misconception that because the few active purgatory players rigorously debate any proposed changes, that we are against change in general. I think this is ultimately untrue, and has perpetuated my earlier statement that we as a section of the GateWars community are largely ignored. But. In a rare moment, I am hoping to change that.

On the content of the threads, in my belief the theme is a well functioning purgatory has been interpreted as a threat to norm. Everything about the above threads read as such, and I cannot understand why. Purgatory is working well, and there's activity, so we impose further handicaps, and the result is a further reduction in activity in purgatory, and then another period of mass inactivity. This isn't an argument, this is a simplification of purgatory to date, ad infinitum.

Now to some hard facts about purgatory mechanics.

Entry 45 mil (7.5% of plague; 15% trade cap; 10% raid cap) and is contingent upon a 48 hour timeframe in which you must not have attacked, raided, sabbed, spied, PPT'd, or Vac'd.
Boot: 61,109,589 (same in theory 48 hour delay, but easily exploited through raiding over boot limit)

No private market, no standard market. Although the changes have meant that purg has gained access to PPT recently, and the older updates of exchanging MTs for Personal resources has been in effect for quite some time. Purg does have access to Mercenary market.

Battle Mechanics:
Access to Realm Alert and Nox
Maximum of 60ATs used on one player per 24 hours.
Covert Capacity has been hard capped at 33.

Things to consider

Any arguments about army size is effectively moot. Army size changes in purg affect nothing as everything about the game is relative. This should be obvious to everyone at this point.

You know that purgatory has a limitation on ATs used on a single player, but the attempt to increase the worth of ATs by increasing the minimum cost from one AT to three AT meant that purgatory attacks have been 1/3 of the intended amount for years now. This is an example of unintentional purg changes, and something norm has taken for granted but we haven't.

Covert actions in purg have been completely obliterated in the past six months. Three things affect this directly: 1. Army Size management 2. The recent covert reforms with relative sabbing and 3. The hard cap of 33 covert capacity in purgatory

On the latter I cannot tell you how irritating and disheartening it is to have a completely secretive update implemented, with zero consultation, and no opportunity for recourse, not to mention it failed to account for the covert reforms imposed across the board less than a month prior (reference: https://talk.gatewa.rs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=195415).

A comprehensive covert reform is implemented across the board, which is fine by me, and then admin comes along and hard caps covert capacity in purgatory, for no reason, called for by no one, and with no mention of this in updates. Good job. If someone can justify a double handicap with zero consultation, by all means, put yourself in our shoes and say it's a good thing.

This point highlights a broader issue with game updates: Does one size fit all? The obvious answer is no. I doubt anyone considers the needs or norm and purg the same, and yet updates are enforced haphazardly in this regard.
On one hand any update in norm is uniformly imposed onto purg, yet at the same time, purg is treated separately, and subject to its own updates which aren't applied to norm. Admin needs to recognise the needs of purg are not the needs of norm, and act accordingly.

Now onto the broader debate:
What is purgatory, and why is there a difference in opinion and expectations.

There are constant claims that purgatory was intended as the realm for new players to learn and grow before joining the broader norm community. This might hold true for the conception of the realm, but as a purgatory player for the past 4 years, I can say that this argument didn't hold true when I first ventured into purgatory. Additionally, this claim has been further countered by the introduction of newgrounds, which effectively steps in to take this mantle from the genesis of purgatory.

The alternative claim is that it is a restricted form of the main realm, where players who don't have enough time to play the game, or those who prefer the restrictions can continue to play. I find this conceptualisation of purg true; however, I hold that this concept does not then imply that accounts are able to sit in purg and immune to other players actions. If that were true, there would be little point in playing the game at all, it'd be Vacation but with an income. Purgatory does not exist in a vacuum.

But it is my last point that the vast majority of arguments arise. I don't know why, and I certainly don't understand the perpetuated argument that Purg should be a dead realm in terms of activity. Who in norm actually wants that? And how does the game benefit from this idea. If that were true, vacation would allow some element of account growth.

Future considerations:

For all intensive purposes, those who are against monopolisation of purg by large players have gone about reform ineffectively.

Arguments about disparity in power, and potential have always resulted in norm players pushing a higher degree of restrictions. Yet at the same time, many concede (albeit unintentionally) that if said player was in a less restricted environment the issue would be mitigated (I am implying that the trash talk of purg is somewhat accurate, monopolisation of norm is harder to do because you cannot simply exploit restrictions because there are less, where as in purg, you have actually enabled players to use certain stats in order to achieve relative security; the opposite of the intention).

Purgatory in order to flourish requires less restrictions. I am not saying remove all of them, but I am saying admin, and the community in general have effectively ensured a perpetuating cycle of Purgatory Tycoons. I have been one of them. But Purgatory is slowly dying, not because of the Tycoons, but because of the lack of recourse. It has become the Ottoman Empire of the Gatewars community.

Inevitably someone will attempt to counter this argument by pushing a hard cap on certain power levels in purgatory. On this I will say a number of things. You will simply restructure the existing issue without providing a solution. Everyone will restructure their account and keep playing, then in a few months this same argument will reappear. This can be said of ascension levels as well (although this is simply a move to force existing players out of purgatory, and in assuming people have taken the time to read the previous threads I provided, I will reiterate a statement I've used many times "Play how we want or quit". It is essentially the ultimatum.)

Further this fails to account for existing players, specifically how to re-balance the game without removing the motivation to keep playing. If you want to simply radicalise the inactivity epidemic, then by all means, impose power restrictions across the board, hell impose power level ceilings in norm as well.

Now hopefully this thread can be used as both the starting point for people to understand purgatory to date, and to get some real discussions on how to move forward, because I, like the mods (if the most recent purg limit thread was any indication) are sick to death of the same crap being thrown around. Additionally, it has become clear purgatory has changed repeatedly without any legitimate input from those who play it, and it is thus time for new purgatory reforms to be enacted after consideration of those it affects, and rigorous debate with the broader gatewars community.

Anyone wishing to discuss this more privately is of course entitled to add me on MSN: mark.hoey@live.com.au

[wasmguy]

I dont post much. I dont like seeing posts twisted and misconstued into something totally diferent and people losing the gist of what was said (someone always seems to do it at some stage in each thread).

First off, perg is perg, it is what it is. Before we get all hung up on what we think its was made for and the intentions behind it, ACCEPT it for what it is, another realm full of restrictions. And this is a war game, key words GAME and WAR.

Next before we push for our own agendas and try to mould perg into what fits our own personal definitions for perg, how about getting an idea of what those in perg use it for, and what they perceive could be done to make it a better place. Put yourself in ALL their shoes, not just the ones that fit, and then make your judgements.

In the past, for those who didnt read, we have gotten into more of a philisophical debate rather than a constructive debate. We want change, we are not against it, we will adapt and thrive (its our nature). For too long the main changes/updates in perg have been pushed by those in norm
as knee-jerk reactions to what is usually either a one-off situation or due to perg not fitting their own personal depiction. This has made life hard for those who are in perg, and harder still for those who cannot learn to adapt (generally newer or less active players) usually resulting in them falling by the wayside.

There is no single solution and no right solution, just those that are a better fit and those that progress the game. Now is the time to explore tweaks that could be implimented to make things fairer/more bearable for all of us using perg, present and future. I myself have a few, but whether they are well received (let alone viable) is yet to be seen.

Suggestion 1: ATs

Currently you get a fixed allocation to use on others , 60 ATs total (in any combination) daily (24 hours from the first hit). I would like to see this tweaked a little so it has three varying levels to go with your intent.

First level would drop it to 45 ATs per 24 hours. No war settings. You are purely testing out your account on another here, or a random naq hit when page farming etc etc. 3 hits you cant do all that much damage.

Second level. One way war. Usually associated with farming. ATs go up to 90 so it gives you the freedom for 6 hits in a 24 hour period and in my experience, it is extremely rare you want any more than that.

Third level. Two way war. Unlimited ATs. For example, player A is farming/hassling player B under single war (so they have 90 ATs per day). Player B wants retribution, clicks war taking it to level 3 and then massing is on the board, ie gives smaller accounts an avenue to hit back hard. If player B does not want to open up his account for massing, well then he doesnt have to and the worst he has to deal with is 90 ATs.

Suggestion 2: Market

It is only with the most recent update that the market in perg has been so flexible. With the advent of the glory shop we now have near unbreakable weapons, PPT's, planets, merlins, name changes etc etc. These options complicate and distract many so the small accounts (they waste GnR on weaps etc). A return to a basic market (just personal ATs/merlins/name changes) would be best to keep them moving forward.

Suggestion 3: Covert

Call me biased, but the most recent restriction on cov capacity went a little too far. I propose it be relaxed so our covert capacity is 50 (still half of norm) and as a better safeguard, halve the successful covert counter on accounts ie player A sabbs out on player B and player C + D cannot then sabb player B (like they can now).

Suggestion 4: Army size

If suggestion one is implimented, it would be handy if smaller players could have a bit more army and therefore scope to build up for massing. Nothing radical, maybe increase it from 15% to 20% of max units (trade cap) with boot set at 25% (currently 20%). This will allow them to gain up to 15 mil UU specialise and to mass with. However, it may open up a can of worms with multies and raider traders (no doubt will be discussed).

Suggestion 5: New accounts

While I would love to see all new, newgrounds and descended accounts end up in perg, I highly doubt it would be popular let alone possible. Starter newgrounds accounts begin with 225 mil AS which is way too large for perg,so they're out (but they have also been learning the game for 6 months on another server). But descended accounts would be viable. Anything small enough could be pushed into perg (training and growing away from the big boys) and new accounts would have a bit of safety from the restrictions in place with plenty of scope to learn/grow. Of course, anyone can leave anytime they like.

All these may/may not help, but I do believe will help and promote activity in perg. Small steps though they may be, but forwards they go.

[Sylus]

I don't know whether to laugh or not.

75 views, but zero replies.

Zero.

*chuckles*

So, this can be read in one of two ways.

My assertion is correct that purg players are treated as if their opinion on their own realm doesn't hold the same weight as norm players commenting on a realm they never play.

Or norm only interprets activity in purgatory as a direct threat (for god knows what reason) and actively seeks to shut it down -the only type of discussion anyone wishes to take part in - how to better ruin purgatory.

I made a very sincere post, regarding the state of purgatory. Wasmguy made some real suggestions about how to re-balance the state of purgatory. We stand as two of the most consistent players of the realm. We understand the mechanics. We understand the way in which to exploit limitations. We admit the need for reform, but only if those affected actually get to voice an opinion in it.

To Admin: You really kneecapped the realm with the double covert updates. Fix it.

The AT revamp suggested stands as arguably the most efficient way to place control of war back in the hands of the defender, which seemingly both Admin, and the vast majority of norm players want.

Implement it.

[Kikaz]

Yes, I read your topic but..

Honestly perg has far to many restrictions for me to ever want to go there so I had no need to post. Since I've never been there I really have no say in what happens in the real m so again I did not post.

But, since no one else seems to want to post I will say I fully support wasmguy's suggestions 1-4.


I especially like #1.
#2 is kinda like whatever though lulz.
#3 Sure, I really don't see any point in lowered covert capacity anyway..
#4 Meh, just increase perg to 100m already! Main players are beating plague anyways with my UP I can sustain 1.4 bill army..

#5 - I would modify to push all Unascended players under 5m army into perg.

And then I would suggest Perg battlefield and Main battlefield not be listed together but still visable by both.

I.E filter to not include pergatory or main players depending on which one your in.

[Sylus]

I appreciate the post, honestly. Hopefully it will prompt a few more well known players to at least acknowledge the need for positive reform in purg, as opposed to further handicapping which just leads to further exploitation.

#2 is kinda like whatever though lulz

This made me laugh though.

[Shezmu]

I'm a very active pergatory player. Perhaps more so than most. Don't mess with my Realm!

The Covert Capacity Cap is pointless so should be restored.

I like some of the ideas but I don't want things to change too much.

[Duderanch]

Unfortunately with the hate on for maelstrom that started a few years ago a lot of purg players left the forums never to return and purgs voice got lost. Hopefully this can get Jason's attention.

[Forum]

firstly, I am good with perg only tweaks. Its true that it rides on main code, and sometimes unintentional effects come up.
Perg is not for beginners (although can be used as such) but is simply a different style of play.

On the suggestion below: complex. I would prefer something simpler.
How about : Max hits on other player = 60AT + AT they used on you in last 24hours.

More to come...when discussions finished can look at actually making updates

Suggestion 1: ATs

Currently you get a fixed allocation to use on others , 60 ATs total (in any combination) daily (24 hours from the first hit). I would like to see this tweaked a little so it has three varying levels to go with your intent.

First level would drop it to 45 ATs per 24 hours. No war settings. You are purely testing out your account on another here, or a random naq hit when page farming etc etc. 3 hits you cant do all that much damage.

Second level. One way war. Usually associated with farming. ATs go up to 90 so it gives you the freedom for 6 hits in a 24 hour period and in my experience, it is extremely rare you want any more than that.

Third level. Two way war. Unlimited ATs. For example, player A is farming/hassling player B under single war (so they have 90 ATs per day). Player B wants retribution, clicks war taking it to level 3 and then massing is on the board, ie gives smaller accounts an avenue to hit back hard. If player B does not want to open up his account for massing, well then he doesnt have to and the worst he has to deal with is 90 ATs.

[Forum]

or 3 ways --

3) that is a lot of reading I have to do. click. click. oh look - a chicken!!! ...

I don't know whether to laugh or not.

75 views, but zero replies.

Zero.

*chuckles*

So, this can be read in one of two ways. ...

[Tetrismonkey]

Why not just remove Perg? I'm sorry, but removing some restrictions to ease Perg up a bit is just pointless. If you want less restrictions, go to main.

Anyways, to counter Admin Jasons point, about the game not being intended for new players. Thats a load of poop. It was introduced for that very reason. To allow less active players and new players somewhere to play without being massed for pointless things. Perg then progressed to a hit and run areana, which is where all the bad reputation stems from. The freedom to talk crap and be able to not get attacked? Maelstrom is the root cause. With this, a few main players got together and destroyed quite a few of those players. Yet causing more restrictions to prevent massings. Thus, changing Perg once again into a hidding place for those that wish to talk crap and have somewhere to hide.

Now onto your next point. If you want a different play style, is that not what the other 4-5 games are for? Origins, Ascended, Newgrounds, Quantum. Im sure a missed one or two games...

My point is, changing Perg, expanding Perg, serves no damn point. If you want to play the game like everyone else, then go to main. Stop asking for changes that will once again benifit the few, leaving the rest of us to combat the same **Filtered** from 4 years ago.

[wasmguy]

Why not just remove Perg? I'm sorry, but removing some restrictions to ease Perg up a bit is just pointless. If you want less restrictions, go to main.

Anyways, to counter Admin Jasons point, about the game not being intended for new players. Thats a load of poop. It was introduced for that very reason. To allow less active players and new players somewhere to play without being massed for pointless things. Perg then progressed to a hit and run areana, which is where all the bad reputation stems from. The freedom to talk crap and be able to not get attacked? Maelstrom is the root cause. With this, a few main players got together and destroyed quite a few of those players. Yet causing more restrictions to prevent massings. Thus, changing Perg once again into a hidding place for those that wish to talk crap and have somewhere to hide.

Now onto your next point. If you want a different play style, is that not what the other 4-5 games are for? Origins, Ascended, Newgrounds, Quantum. Im sure a missed one or two games...

My point is, changing Perg, expanding Perg, serves no damn point. If you want to play the game like everyone else, then go to main. Stop asking for changes that will once again benifit the few, leaving the rest of us to combat the same **Filtered** from 4 years ago.

*shakes head in disbelief*

I am not even going to dignify that with any more of a response than this

Please leave your hate, rhetoric, and trashtalking at the door. Now onto business

And these suggestions were made with the best intentions. They benefit the many OVER the few....

[Juliette]

@ telling the developer of Pergatory that he is wrong about why it was created.

[Tetrismonkey]

Why not just remove Perg? I'm sorry, but removing some restrictions to ease Perg up a bit is just pointless. If you want less restrictions, go to main.

Anyways, to counter Admin Jasons point, about the game not being intended for new players. Thats a load of poop. It was introduced for that very reason. To allow less active players and new players somewhere to play without being massed for pointless things. Perg then progressed to a hit and run areana, which is where all the bad reputation stems from. The freedom to talk crap and be able to not get attacked? Maelstrom is the root cause. With this, a few main players got together and destroyed quite a few of those players. Yet causing more restrictions to prevent massings. Thus, changing Perg once again into a hidding place for those that wish to talk crap and have somewhere to hide.

Now onto your next point. If you want a different play style, is that not what the other 4-5 games are for? Origins, Ascended, Newgrounds, Quantum. Im sure a missed one or two games...

My point is, changing Perg, expanding Perg, serves no damn point. If you want to play the game like everyone else, then go to main. Stop asking for changes that will once again benifit the few, leaving the rest of us to combat the same **Filtered** from 4 years ago.

*shakes head in disbelief*

I am not even going to dignify that with any more of a response than this

Please leave your hate, rhetoric, and trashtalking at the door. Now onto business

And these suggestions were made with the best intentions. They benefit the many OVER the few....

He asked for opinions, so he got one. I'm sorry but my opinion stems from nothing but bad encounters. Perg is a waste of coding, space and time. You want more freedom there, but refuse to return to main? That alone makes about as much sense as eating Mc Donalds and telling yourself it won't make you fat.

Now PLEASE explain to me how the minority of the player base, the perg players, are the majority of the active player base?

[Tetrismonkey]

:smt043 @ telling the developer of Pergatory that he is wrong about why it was created.

Because he is? Like hes wrong about alot of things? But I guess your not wrong when you surround yourself with cheerleaders that tell you everything you do is right, then well yea... You are always right!

Should we open that book and start THAT discussion right now? I'm sure I can make a list of atleast a half a dozen dumb, stupid and WRONG things hes done in just the last 6 months!

[wasmguy]

Now PLEASE explain to me how the minority of the player base, the perg players, are the majority of the active player base?

that I can do

What was actually meant was in relation to just the perg players.