Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

Sarevok
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Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

Originally:
So, following on from my original thread (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=160614) I have devised a more detailed/specific version of how I want it to work. Below are the details.

What will I get for a upgrade:
Each upgrade to the player will provide a +2% on top of the current bonus to the race specific stat, as well as +2% for the race’s unique ability (For example, replicators would receive a +2% to their covert [+27% instead of the original +25% for covert] along with a +2% chance, of their lost units in battle regenerating)

Where will these be found:
These upgrades would be found in the technology page. And would be upgraded similar to that of the ascended blessing, merc control, realm fortifications, etc.

Upgrading requirements:
**1000+ G&R. This is primarily to keep this more inline with ascensions, then anything else. More G&R can be accumulated, however, when the upgrade is purchased, G&R is reset completely to 0.
**10k UP/Upgrade Level. Whilst this is to start with MORE expensive UP wise then ascending, the costs become the same, once it reaches tech level 11+. Basically, if you are upgrading from Tech-4 to Tech-5, it would cost you 50k UP. UP is NOT reset like G&R is, instead, this is just deducted from your current UP. Again, using the example from before, if you have a 100k UP, and go from Tech-4 to Tech-5, your UP after upgrade would be 50k UP

Maximum Upgrade:
The highest percentage you will be able to get from this scheme would be 75%. Now, I know what many of you will be thinking, “That’s silly! Ascended accounts only get 49% stat boost, why should people whom don’t ascend get more?!”. But consider this, ascended accounts get +49% to each stat (atk, def, cov, AC, income), where as this player gets the bonus on one stat only. The total bonus for ascended accounts is 245% bonus, these accounts only 75%. The ascended blessing also doubles your attack or defence (instead of the basic 100%, with the +49%, ascended accounts get unto 300% total [200% bonus] compared with that of un-ascended accounts in their non-specialised area)

Race Unique Abilities:
All unique abilities will be set to 25% to start with. This means, 25% chance of replicators regenerating after a battle, and being returned to the user; 25% chance, that units killed by you as a goa’uld, will become slaves (UU) in your realm, etc.

Compensation:
Now, I know some of you will be saying, “This is unfair for those whom have ascended. If they wanted to use this, then they would loose all their ascended bonuses, and have to start from scratch again”. I have worked out a method of ‘compensation’ for these players.
Those whom have ascended beyond the 10th ascension, will get their (ascension level +2) as their race unique tech level. Eg, I’ve ascended 20 times, so I’ll get Tech Level 22 (20 + 2). Those whom are 10th or lower, will get their (ascension level / 2, rounded up) as their tech. Eg I’m level 6 (LG+1), so I would get Tech Level 3 (6/2). This is halved, since the requirements for the tech in terms of UP are about 1/2 that of what I am proposing.

Please post *constructive* criticism
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=162732
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

Bump

Anyone?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=162732
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

Great ideas! If they were to be implemented i would surely make myself unascended just to play them! :)
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

Skeptism: even though the bonuses look good, the fact that without competitive weapons, or bonus in other areas, the losses sustained in those areas, will be so extreme, as to make it not worth while to play.


Problem1: Weapons

Ascended weapons are (for the most part) twice as powerful as that of unascended. Which means in attack/defense, ascended accounts have another 100% power bonus because of that in addition to their ascended blessing tech bonuses. Meaning, in attack defense, they don't just have 49% bonus, they technically have 149% over non ascended accounts.


For the Gouald and lesser extent, Replicators, means their dead. Superior Income, doesn't matter. They wont be able to hold it. They will need essentially, 2 weapons/people just to match the power from ascended weapons, then they will need a 3rd guy to counter other ascended bonus.


As for the increase in their unique techs for combat, that is great, and sure, those techs read that their great, but if memory serves, they are essentially crap in comparison to the Tauri/Asgard counter parts, and that has to do with the way the original races were balanced.


Now, Tauri/Asgard, are little different.

More or less, they suffer from the same weapon shortage as the Goualds/Replicators. The full, 75% stat bonus wont even cover the bonus from the weapons, so they have no real advantage in that area. It is certainly better than what they have now.

but, their unique techs, are very awesome when it comes to combat, but even with that, at best, they might match the Ascended in one area, not be better off (which is what I think you want them to be).



Problem 2: The non boosted stat areas.

Even with weapon upgrades, I still don't see the replicators/gouald having a chance in terms of combat. Now replicators might be ok since they will focus on acing and such, but gouald, well, that extra income might just end up going to other players.


And the Tauri
Awesome strike, but with little defense (which is already weakest at the moment) and no bonus to covert, the strike is just going to be sabbed away for little loss of the sabber. And the losses saved from attacking will simply be put to extra covert/defense units in a desperate futile attempt to stop sabbing. And with the low income, this means less naq to loose with the weaker defense. Making Tauri sniper haven for building/selling strikes as needed with no stats, and less income to lose.

I'll, admit, using certain planets could help counter these weaknesses, Tauri could use covert planets to protect their strike, Gouald, with large income could eventually build worthwhile defense planets to hold it, etc


As your suggestion stands now, all I can see the benefits in one area, but the losses that will be sustained in other areas will be so extreeme that the bonus wont be worth while. The only one I can see being use wide spread would be the Asgard by non aggresive players who do not attack actively defended players very much.


So moving on to the fun part....

SOLUTIONS
Weapon Upgrade
Option A:
-At tech level 10, they a get an addition boost.
--Weapons get a boost. Base value + Base value = new weapon strength.
Option B:
-At tech level 10, they a get an addition boost.
--Weapons get a boost. Base value/2 + Base value = new weapon strength.
-At tech level 20, they a get an addition boost.
--Weapons get a boost. Base value/2 + Base value/2 + Base value = new weapon strength.

Stat bonus
1% bonus in other areas.
Such that after all 25 upgrades are purchased, they have
75% in specialized area, 25% in other areas.
Which makes them on par with LG, but not LG+1.
This way, they are competitive, but not advantageous in those areas.
Losses won't be so extreme that people wont use it.


With these additions, I'm thinking a naq cost should also be added to the req of buying the techs.
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Sarevok
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

*curses uni lecture for actually being helpful*

Now thats done away with, back to the topic at hand.

"Stat bonus
1% bonus in other areas.
Such that after all 25 upgrades are purchased, they have
75% in specialized area, 25% in other areas."
After reading what you said, i agree here. They do need bonuses somewhere else, to help being them level more.

Weapon power is increased per tech level. +4% to ALL weapons (being attack and defense) to allow them to be similar powered to that of ascended weapons. (4*25 techs = +100%)


Also, reguarding the deficiencies of the Replicators and Goauld, there recovered units should be brought up to the 75% same as the key stat. In short, replicators get 75% chance of recovering 1/2 the units lost. The Goa'uld get 75% chance of getting 1/2 of the units lost by the enemy (when attacking them, their defense losses, and whilst defending, the enemies attack losses) as UU in their realm, as it says when signing up, they are not killed, but taken as slaves
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=162732
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R8 wrote:TEAM WORK WILL BEAT $$ ANYDAY OF THE WEEK
angel wrote:Except the payday [-X
12agnar0k wrote:Also it's still not a war game, you have att/def weps yes, but you also have uu and UP, does this mean its a sex game, oh no, XRATEDSGW, THIS GAME IS PORN!
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

Sarevok wrote:Also, reguarding the deficiencies of the Replicators and Goauld, there recovered units should be brought up to the 75% same as the key stat. In short, replicators get 75% chance of recovering 1/2 the units lost. The Goa'uld get 75% chance of getting 1/2 of the units lost by the enemy (when attacking them, their defense losses, and whilst defending, the enemies attack losses) as UU in their realm, as it says when signing up, they are not killed, but taken as slaves


Have to be careful, here, because those deficiencies exist as a balancing.

Power gained per unit with all techs purchased

Replicator
Strike action would be approximately 61,440.
Defense action would be approximately 65,472.

Gouald
Strike action would be approximately 67,456.
Defense action would be approximately 61,440.

Tauri
Strike action would be approximately 124,609.
Defense action would be approximately 44,950.

Asgard
Strike action would be approximately 56,100.
Defense action would be approximately 122,850

Observe, even though the Tauri possess an attack advantage over everyone, so does everyone possess an attack advantage over the Tauri. Even the Asgard attack advantage over the Tauri is greater than the Tauri attack advantage over the Asgard. Likewise, Gouald/Rep also posses a defense advantage over the Asgard.

The Gouald, if I remember correctly, have bank bonuses in addition to just income bonus. They have free banking, and naturally bigger bank space. Raw, its not much, but factor in additional bank upgrades, and Gouald have an easier time saving for big purchases. And the free banking adds up after a while.

The Replicators, have a bonus of cheaper spy levels. Not that big of deal, but when that too can add up to a lot.

The unique tech upgrades favor the Tauri and Asgard sort of as a means offsetting those other bonuses.

Sarevok wrote:Also, reguarding the deficiencies of the Replicators and Goauld, there recovered units should be brought up to the 75% same as the key stat. In short, replicators get 75% chance of recovering 1/2 the units lost. The Goa'uld get 75% chance of getting 1/2 of the units lost by the enemy (when attacking them, their defense losses, and whilst defending, the enemies attack losses) as UU in their realm, as it says when signing up, they are not killed, but taken as slaves


So this does sort unbalance the unascended, but at the same time it is needed as a means of being useful against AB.

Keeping what you added there,
The Asgard unique is still good because it also protects spies(beneficial to covert) and will work great with the nox/crit system that is in place. It also prevents weapon damage which is another plus over the other uniques, even Tauri. In fact that little advantage is enough to make up for the slight attack advantage the Tauri have over Asgard.

Tauri one is a little more tricky.
My current thinking is to add it to defense as well. Such that 75% of the time, the units are evacuated and unharmed. That will just decrease unit losses, defense weapons will still take same damage. This would encourage the building of the defenses which hard enough as now, and harder for Tauri since they would still have the weakest defense of all.


With all those above enhancements in mind, and the cost of last few Ascensions
Stat bonus
maybe .8% upgrade (instead of 1%)
such that its 20% (instead of 25%) after all the upgrades are purchased.
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

TacticalCommander wrote:Observe, even though the Tauri possess an attack advantage over everyone, so does everyone possess an attack advantage over the Tauri. Even the Asgard attack advantage over the Tauri is greater than the Tauri attack advantage over the Asgard. Likewise, Gouald/Rep also posses a defense advantage over the Asgard.

What do you mean by this? I'm a little lost.
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

Sarevok wrote:
TacticalCommander wrote:Observe, even though the Tauri possess an attack advantage over everyone, so does everyone possess an attack advantage over the Tauri. Even the Asgard attack advantage over the Tauri is greater than the Tauri attack advantage over the Asgard. Likewise, Gouald/Rep also posses a defense advantage over the Asgard.

What do you mean by this? I'm a little lost.


I'll use some bigger numbers.

At current unascended weapons/techs using 1 mil supers with largest available weapons (no unique tech)
Tauri
Strike action would be approximately 124,609,375,000. (max weapon strength, 2750)
Defense action would be approximately 44,950,000,000. (max weapon strength, 2000)
Gouald
Strike action would be approximately 67,456,000,000. (max weapon strength, 2560)
Defense action would be approximately 61,440,000,000 (max weapon strength, 2560)

Notice how the Tauri attack advantage grants them a larger attack over the Gouald defense. But also notice that the Gouald strike action is larger than the Tauri defense. Indicating the gouald also have an attack advantage over the Tauri.
Same applies to the Replicators more or less.

Now in terms of the asgard comment
For the asgard.
Strike action would be approximately 56,100,000,000. (max weapon strength, 2000)
Defense action would be approximately 116,480,000,000 (max weapon strength, 2700)

The Tauri have an attack advantage over the asgard of roughly 8bil power (124bil-116bil). The asgard however have an attack advantage over the Tauri of roughly 11bil (56bil-45bil).

That is what I mean, I hope that clears things up. Also notice how the gouald possess a slight defense advantage over the Asgard Attack.
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

Now i get what your saying.

So, are you saying we should also adjust weapon power as well? Such that the Tauri's Defence = Asgard Attack, and Tauri Attack = Asgard Defense?

Although the flip side to this, which i just realised. Chances are, people aren't going to mass large defense with an attack greater then the defense. So they will use the 30% rule. Doesn't this mean that in the grand scheme of things, it'll only save them like 1-2 hits before being a sucessful attack in terms of massing?

Note: I AM an advocate for equalising attack and defense weapons strengths on ascended accounts, and possibly un-ascended accounts, if you believe it is worth wild doing
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R8 wrote:TEAM WORK WILL BEAT $$ ANYDAY OF THE WEEK
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12agnar0k wrote:Also it's still not a war game, you have att/def weps yes, but you also have uu and UP, does this mean its a sex game, oh no, XRATEDSGW, THIS GAME IS PORN!
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

I thought the whole point of this game was to ascend to get the added bonuses... not give me bonuses so I can compete because I'm a n00b. Players that start nowadays already have one advantage that I did not have when I started playing... they get to keep their mothership after ascending. What more could they need?
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

MaxSterling wrote:I thought the whole point of this game was to ascend to get the added bonuses... not give me bonuses so I can compete because I'm a n00b. Players that start nowadays already have one advantage that I did not have when I started playing... they get to keep their mothership after ascending. What more could they need?
Do you actaully read the discussion? Or just do as every one else does, and assume un-acended means newbie?

This if for those whom DON'T WANT TO ascend, but . Cause they LIKE the race unique techs, and thus would prefere to improve those, then ascend. You think AB is awesome? Try being able to mass someone and only take losses and damage like 70% of the time.
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

An unascended race should not be able to compete with an ascended race. If you wanna play unascended, then you should accept the disadvantage. SG-1 needed Morgan Le Fay to defeat Ascended Adria. Ascended Anubis could not be taken down without Oma Desala as well. In other words, the only way to defeat an ascended being... is by being one yourself. If you play unascended, then you accept it as being a challenge.
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

MaxSterling wrote:An unascended race should not be able to compete with an ascended race. If you wanna play unascended, then you should accept the disadvantage. SG-1 needed Morgan Le Fay to defeat Ascended Adria. Ascended Anubis could not be taken down without Oma Desala as well. In other words, the only way to defeat an ascended being... is by being one yourself. If you play unascended, then you accept it as being a challenge.

Forgive me for asking, but didn't ALL the Ori get wiped out by a device constructed by an un-ascended being? Or am i getting the story mixed up?
And the ONLY reason Adria survived is because she WASN'T ascended at the time it was activated...
And Anubis wasn't even an ascended being. He was only partly ascended. And he WAS defeated firstly, when the body he was in, was frozen. Again, un-ascended being beating ascended ones.
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12agnar0k wrote:Also it's still not a war game, you have att/def weps yes, but you also have uu and UP, does this mean its a sex game, oh no, XRATEDSGW, THIS GAME IS PORN!
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

Sarevok wrote:
MaxSterling wrote:An unascended race should not be able to compete with an ascended race. If you wanna play unascended, then you should accept the disadvantage. SG-1 needed Morgan Le Fay to defeat Ascended Adria. Ascended Anubis could not be taken down without Oma Desala as well. In other words, the only way to defeat an ascended being... is by being one yourself. If you play unascended, then you accept it as being a challenge.

Forgive me for asking, but didn't ALL the Ori get wiped out by a device constructed by an un-ascended being? Or am i getting the story mixed up?
And the ONLY reason Adria survived is because she WASN'T ascended at the time it was activated...
And Anubis wasn't even an ascended being. He was only partly ascended. And he WAS defeated firstly, when the body he was in, was frozen. Again, un-ascended being beating ascended ones.

The priors and doci were physical beings and thus susceptible to human technology. They never died and ascended. Adria was the only Orici that had actually died and ascended. She was weakened because her power was amplified from the faith of those following the human priors and doci. When that link became severed, Morgan was then able to match her power. Don't confuse the Orici ( ascended beings ) with the Ori ( the followers/believers ).
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Re: Improvements for Un-Ascended Accounts (Not new ones)

http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Ori

The Ori (pronounced or-ai) were a race of ascended beings who used their knowledge and power as justification to demand the worship of mortal beings.

http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Orici

The Orici was Adria, and ONLY Adria.
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