Planet defences

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Re: Planet defences

Post by GeneralChaos » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:22 am

BMMJ13 wrote:
Nimras wrote:
Sarevok wrote:
BMMJ13 wrote:
Sarevok wrote:This is true. However, my point was. If you can mass someone with your fleets, 2-3 times, then in most cases, the costs to the defender, are greater then the building and repairing costs of the aggressor
My point is why should it be cheaper? You have merlins already, why does defenses have to be untouchable as well.
Proportion of costs is not balanced.


No but neither is Merlin but your not working to change that are you :p.

I must agree with Nimras. As long as those with planets have merlins, which give the ability to protect a planet from anything and still get stats and limited only by your ability to continue to merlin the planets, actual defenses should not be cheap to build else everyone will build defenses that are impossible to take. Currently there are many planets which are close to impossible to take, as well as some which are only takable by a few people. It should not cost as much to mass a planet as it does to build the defense as that defenses is providing more benefits than fleets do and if people really want their planet to be safe they should use the in game merlin system or build the defense higher to stop people.



It should not cost as much to mass a planet as it does to build defenses ummm yea thats some balance there isnt it, you can mass as many planets as you want with your fleets, and the defender will lose up to 10x what you mass ( given 10 planets ) where its true that the planets with ultra defenses on them, cost a fortune to mass, the balance to this would be to change the resell value of fleets again, a nice 50% even on resale means that you just massed up to 10 planets to be stolen but at a cost of 50% of what you invested to mass them.
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Re: Planet defences

Post by BMMJ13 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:35 am

GeneralChaos wrote:
BMMJ13 wrote:
Nimras wrote:
Sarevok wrote:
BMMJ13 wrote:
Sarevok wrote:This is true. However, my point was. If you can mass someone with your fleets, 2-3 times, then in most cases, the costs to the defender, are greater then the building and repairing costs of the aggressor
My point is why should it be cheaper? You have merlins already, why does defenses have to be untouchable as well.
Proportion of costs is not balanced.


No but neither is Merlin but your not working to change that are you :p.

I must agree with Nimras. As long as those with planets have merlins, which give the ability to protect a planet from anything and still get stats and limited only by your ability to continue to merlin the planets, actual defenses should not be cheap to build else everyone will build defenses that are impossible to take. Currently there are many planets which are close to impossible to take, as well as some which are only takable by a few people. It should not cost as much to mass a planet as it does to build the defense as that defenses is providing more benefits than fleets do and if people really want their planet to be safe they should use the in game merlin system or build the defense higher to stop people.



It should not cost as much to mass a planet as it does to build defenses ummm yea thats some balance there isnt it, you can mass as many planets as you want with your fleets, and the defender will lose up to 10x what you mass ( given 10 planets ) where its true that the planets with ultra defenses on them, cost a fortune to mass, the balance to this would be to change the resell value of fleets again, a nice 50% even on resale means that you just massed up to 10 planets to be stolen but at a cost of 50% of what you invested to mass them.

Except a single planet can cost up to 3-4x the cost of actually buying the fleets in repairs. The only time when the fleet cost actually makes a difference is if you are building up fleets to mass a single planet to take in one hit or similar. People already have to invest in fleets, why should you make it easier for people with planets who are too lazy or cheap to build the planets to a level to properly protect them. Perhaps they need another 15 merlins a week so you don't have to worry about losing your planets at all and can keep all 10. #-o
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Nimras » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:25 am

Sarevok wrote:
BMMJ13 wrote:
Sarevok wrote:
BMMJ13 wrote:
Sarevok wrote:This is true. However, my point was. If you can mass someone with your fleets, 2-3 times, then in most cases, the costs to the defender, are greater then the building and repairing costs of the aggressor
My point is why should it be cheaper? You have merlins already, why does defenses have to be untouchable as well.
Proportion of costs is not balanced.
I must agree with Nimras. As long as those with planets have merlins, which give the ability to protect a planet from anything and still get stats and limited only by your ability to continue to merlin the planets, actual defenses should not be cheap to build else everyone will build defenses that are impossible to take. Currently there are many planets which are close to impossible to take, as well as some which are only takable by a few people. It should not cost as much to mass a planet as it does to build the defense as that defenses is providing more benefits than fleets do and if people really want their planet to be safe they should use the in game merlin system or build the defense higher to stop people.
If you balance the costs, you don't need merlins. IMO, costs are unbalanced, thus i support merlins for now.
And they were introduced to counter the double power boost of fleets, firstly the double power increase, and then the 30% from techs.


LOL m8 no offense but Merlin biggest problem is that you not only keep the bonus for your rank but unlike MS when send out doese not help in fights Merlined planets doese.

Thats make Merlin unbalanced and wrong and the fact you still support it says all.
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Ethereal Tassadar » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:26 am

Planets are hard to take over. They should be. They must be. They will always be.
Now, let's try and see if the game's stuff fits with the stargate's universe.

[spoiler=Let's see..]Merlin thingy shifts a planet out of dimension.
People on the planet still exist.
Those people do what they were doing before.
(They still make babies)
(they still got fighting forces)
(they still mine naquadah)
(they still got undercover agents, etc.)
Let's try to see if those match :
Babies made out of phase will be able to come in the right phase.
The planet can get it's merlin device to shut down for a small while allowing it's forces to get off, then reactivate it.
Naq out of phase will be brought into right phase eventually.
undercover guys can do like the fighting forces.[/spoiler]

Now now, if you want easy planets and don't want to have to hunt for a period when they're out of protection, buy planets with cash - you also help the server!
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Sarevok » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:32 pm

The planet can get it's merlin device to shut down for a small while allowing it's forces to get off, then reactivate it.
I said a similar thing in another thread. It's power available to remain out of phase, not a once off jump each time. And you add a days worth of power to the device for the planet
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Nimras » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:16 am

Ethereal Tassadar wrote:Planets are hard to take over. They should be. They must be. They will always be.
Now, let's try and see if the game's stuff fits with the stargate's universe.

[spoiler=Let's see..]Merlin thingy shifts a planet out of dimension.
People on the planet still exist.
Those people do what they were doing before.
(They still make babies)
(they still got fighting forces)
(they still mine naquadah)
(they still got undercover agents, etc.)
Let's try to see if those match :
Babies made out of phase will be able to come in the right phase.
The planet can get it's merlin device to shut down for a small while allowing it's forces to get off, then reactivate it.
Naq out of phase will be brought into right phase eventually.
undercover guys can do like the fighting forces.[/spoiler]

Now now, if you want easy planets and don't want to have to hunt for a period when they're out of protection, buy planets with cash - you also help the server!


There is just the thing from the Stargate Universe when a planet or anything come out of phase to fight or what ever it can't jump back in straight away it need some time to charge up so they can jump back in.

Problem is in the game when someone hits someone the planets STAYS on merlin CAN't be hunted nor stolen at any time because they keep it at Merlin 24/7 yet it still without comming out of phase help in the fight the men still comes out fight and can do so without having to waite to get back in which in the universe they had to.

Sarevok wrote:
The planet can get it's merlin device to shut down for a small while allowing it's forces to get off, then reactivate it.
I said a similar thing in another thread. It's power available to remain out of phase, not a once off jump each time. And you add a days worth of power to the device for the planet


Yes you said but like ET there you miss the point from the SGU and thats when something came out of phase into the real world it took time to charge up and put back into merlin.

In this game the planets never come out of merlin they are kept there 24/7 and yet they still without comming out of phase add fighting points to the account.

Now where is the balance if the planet came out of phase for lets say 1 turn everytime you hit someone so it could be taken while out of phase then merlin worked as it should in the universe of Stargate.

Now it don't so please stop defending it as its unbalanced and wrong.
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Ethereal Tassadar » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:14 am

What is the definition of unbalanced?
I'll tell you what I understand by unbalanced, by example.
In a war.
One side has nukes, the other doesn't.

It is not unbalanced, as Merlin device can be activated by anyone at any time as long as they have the required power for it.
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Sarevok » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:45 pm

Ethereal Tassadar wrote:It is not unbalanced, as Merlin device can be activated by anyone at any time as long as they have the required power for it.
Doesn't support their playing style. They don't like it. Simple.
You can try and reason with them, but there's little point. I was just reading how the Sodan cloak operates on similar principles, and that can be activated whenever. But ask them to prove their statement, my money is on they can't.
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Re: Planet defences

Post by BMMJ13 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:55 pm

Sarevok wrote:
Ethereal Tassadar wrote:It is not unbalanced, as Merlin device can be activated by anyone at any time as long as they have the required power for it.
Doesn't support their playing style. They don't like it. Simple.
You can try and reason with them, but there's little point. I was just reading how the Sodan cloak operates on similar principles, and that can be activated whenever. But ask them to prove their statement, my money is on they can't.

You are trying to say people should get merlins, it should be harder to mass, and it should cost more to mass. I say that only 1 should be allowed, otherwise planets start to become untouchable, however you seem to continue to say the same thing being unreasonable.
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Ethereal Tassadar » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:56 pm

Despite the fact that the odds of reasoning with them are low, I shall keep trying.

A person can't hold a merlin device active on all of their planets for a long time. As I stated before, merlin device is not infinite.
Massing doesn't have anything to do with stealing planets.
Often people who are massed are weaker if not much weaker than the person massing them, therefore the person who masses doesn't many any use of low prod planets.
Another thing, massing is 78% useless, as players will keep rising back up. 78% of them who get massed, at least.

A side note to the latest post, merlin device is not planet protection treaty, therefore you can mass anyone even tho they got merlin device on their weakling planets.
Another side note, yes it should cost more to mass people, as it inflicts a tremendous setback to those massed, and it leads to 22% of those massed to quit playing, which is a setback for the server itself. But we're not discussing massing costs here, we're discussing the setbacks of removing merlin device.

I have a feeling that some day soon someone will come complaining about planet defenses and will ask them to be removed. I also have a feeling someone will come crashing on us that mobile planetary defense platforms are "unbalanced" and will ask for them to be removed as well.
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Sarevok » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:24 am

BMMJ13 wrote:I say that only 1 should be allowed, otherwise planets start to become untouchable, however you seem to continue to say the same thing being unreasonable.
Strange, swear i said
Sarevok wrote:If you balance the costs, you don't need merlins. IMO, costs are unbalanced, thus i support merlins for now.
And never mentioned making defences harder to take (more costly is not the same as harder to take imo). So, I only support 1 of the 3.
1) Leave merlins
2) remove merlins and make the costs to mass similar to cost to build
3) remove merlins and make planets harder to mass.
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Nimras » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:26 am

Ethereal Tassadar wrote:Despite the fact that the odds of reasoning with them are low, I shall keep trying.

A person can't hold a merlin device active on all of their planets for a long time. As I stated before, merlin device is not infinite.
Massing doesn't have anything to do with stealing planets.
Often people who are massed are weaker if not much weaker than the person massing them, therefore the person who masses doesn't many any use of low prod planets.
Another thing, massing is 78% useless, as players will keep rising back up. 78% of them who get massed, at least.

A side note to the latest post, merlin device is not planet protection treaty, therefore you can mass anyone even tho they got merlin device on their weakling planets.
Another side note, yes it should cost more to mass people, as it inflicts a tremendous setback to those massed, and it leads to 22% of those massed to quit playing, which is a setback for the server itself. But we're not discussing massing costs here, we're discussing the setbacks of removing merlin device.

I have a feeling that some day soon someone will come complaining about planet defenses and will ask them to be removed. I also have a feeling someone will come crashing on us that mobile planetary defense platforms are "unbalanced" and will ask for them to be removed as well.


LOOOL and here we go please m8 your way wrong.

1. You said it you self something merlined is phased but when they come out to fight they do and then go back in phased.

There is just one problem there while out in the normal it takes time to charge to put them back in.

2. I just tested i could merlin all my planets.

So if i wanted to waste money i could keep every single planet merlined 24/7.

3. A fact is when you fight someone like attack or get attacked or use covert or assassins your PLANETS join in the fight.

Yet when joining in helping you they do not LEAVE merlin as they would if they where in the REAL universe of Stargate.

So the fact you want to keep merlin and want to make it so you can keep planets hidden never able to be stolen but still fight for you is unbalanced.

I find it wrong because it doese make it unbalanced as some people hide their planet 24/7 in fear of loosing them the fact they fear it that much also proves why merlin is a unblance and a issue in this game helping this game to die.

But i guess since you like Merlin so much must mean you have planets you fear to loose?
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Re: Planet defences

Post by BMMJ13 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:27 am

Sarevok wrote:
BMMJ13 wrote:I say that only 1 should be allowed, otherwise planets start to become untouchable, however you seem to continue to say the same thing being unreasonable.
Strange, swear i said
Sarevok wrote:If you balance the costs, you don't need merlins. IMO, costs are unbalanced, thus i support merlins for now.
And never mentioned making defences harder to take (more costly is not the same as harder to take imo). So, I only support 1 of the 3.
1) Leave merlins
2) remove merlins and make the costs to mass similar to cost to build
3) remove merlins and make planets harder to mass.

They are however quite close to the cost for what they actually do.

Say you have a planet that cost 200 tril to build. That 200 tril would be providing whoever built it whatever stats they wanted as well as destroying fleets up to 8 tril in value from trying to take it. They can also build that 200 tril up over time, maybe keeping the planet on merlin while it is not at a sufficient level that they want.

Now lets say someone wants to mass that planet. It could easily cost them 40 or more tril in an hour from repairs just to take out the planet that is there, and what boost do they get? They get your planet with 75% of its stats as it had before, which is probably 50% of the value of the planet itself. Not to mention to even try and take this planet, someone would need probably 800 tril in fleet capacity.

You may say that oh, well if they steal planets, it costs them less to steal each one overall, however the repairs are still there and they still need the fleet capacity to steal them or risk blowing up fleets, both of which are expensive.
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Ethereal Tassadar » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:06 am

My overall point is that excuses can and may be made up for the "authenticity" of the game.
At any rate, I find massing planets stupid.
Merlin device on all planets 24/7 would require a hell lot of work and would decimate most of the other forces' power. (someone can't really just buy Merlin power with cash for eternity without having to WORK, and work implies a lack of time to play the game itself, etc.)

Bottom line : if Merlin device would be removed, you'd be complaining about other stuff like platforms and eventually planet defenses.

The same way a person can merlin all of his/her planets, they can add millions of defenses on planets AND on platforms. My guess is, if merlin is removed that's exactly what will happen. And upgrading a planet's / platform's defense capability is not as expensive as making a mothership powerful enough to destroy even one of those heavily upgraded defenses.
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Re: Planet defences

Post by Sarevok » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:24 pm

Nimras wrote:1. You said it you self something merlined is phased but when they come out to fight they do and then go back in phased.

There is just one problem there while out in the normal it takes time to charge to put them back in.
Where does it say that?

Nimras wrote:2. I just tested i could merlin all my planets.

So if i wanted to waste money i could keep every single planet merlined 24/7.
If your going to spend $200/month on merlins, you can only cover 5 planets.

Nimras wrote:I find it wrong because it doese make it unbalanced as some people hide their planet 24/7 in fear of loosing them the fact they fear it that much also proves why merlin is a unblance and a issue in this game helping this game to die.
Explain to us all how it is unbalanced when everyone can do it. Its like saying fleets are unfair cause some people use them and some people don't :?

BMMJ13 wrote:You may say that oh, well if they steal planets, it costs them less to steal each one overall, however the repairs are still there and they still need the fleet capacity to steal them or risk blowing up fleets, both of which are expensive.
Problem with this argument I see. Fleet capacity can't be built up over time (apparently) but planet defences can?
Can not that fleet capacity be utilised to assault multiple planets? And weaken those planets for others to take? Where as a planets defence is for itself alone.
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