Covenant vs. Goa'uld (Appy vs. Truth) Rate

[Almost38]

it can take out planets man... ships are nothing to it

[loki]

i would like to point out two things

one the pillar killed four covanant ships cause * its mac gun was an advanced prototype that recycles the power so it can fire three shots on one charge

two the covanant sherph fighters would prove supirior against gliders and alkesh

* = halo the fall of reach

so there

i just thought of something else

** this may be news but unyeilding hirophant is destroyed

** = halo first strike

[semper]

I would like to point out Anubis, the potential religious and cultural taboo that could indefinately follow him, coupled with the display of infighting shown by the covenant on numerous occasions throughout the second and third games.

[Osi]

it can take out planets man... ships are nothing to it

It can only take out a planet by hitting the stargate. The naquada within the gate maginfies the power. Covenant worlds lack stargates, and are kept extremely well hidden. The Superior jump drive of the covenant would allow them to find and target goa'uld worlds and glass them. Some Goa'uld planets don't even have orbital defenses. Finally, Anubis's superweapon would fail if it meet 500 ships and a Covenant Refit station. Covenant stations can repel the impact of a moon*. And, larger covenant ships can stay out of range, which from what we have seen nullifies the superweapon, and fire plasma beams and plasma torpedos at ships. Anubis would have to move his ship around and engage the ships one by one, the weapon takes time to charge and seems to remain stationary, the range of the energy pulse is also pathetic compared to 100,000 kilometers of a Covenant Energy Projector-.


* first strike
-fall of reach

And Semper, If we follow canon Anubis does not exist, and the Covenant is made up of the Elites, Grunts, and Hunters. Still a Superior force to the Goa'uld.

Oh and minor thing. Damage to Goa'ud weapons and ships is very hard to repair as shown by the series. A Covenant engineer group can repair any damage to any material with the proper supplies.

[semper]

if we follow canon, the covenant no longer exist's.

[Osi]

as a client based hegemony it does. Its religous view is gone, but it is still the Covenant, leade by the elites. It would be like saying Rome was no longer Rome when each new roman family took power. But we won't get into that. Covenant tech would still pwn goa'uld tech without the prophets leadership.

[semper]

for the sake of not breaking my own rules, i am forced to cease.

Right. Time for the rating.

I will rate you when I next awaken from slumber...

tom go ahead if you want to buddy.

mark out of 100 for each participant.

[Osi]

one thing to add about the 100km beam/ energy projector. It travels at light speed, and the ship could fire five beams at once. It was also capable of cutting a 485 meter long, 8000 ton unsc destroyer, with two meters of titanium on its outer hulls; in half, in one shot.

[Tyber Zann]

One thing to point out for future and before I re-read to mark, I dont think inter race wars outside of each other, works very well. On one side we have a tv series which doesnt reach out to insane things in what they say is possible, as some realism has to be kept insight. Then on the other we have a game/books which anything can be made possible because it sounds cool and makes people go wow.

Will give a final mark out of 100 shortly.

[Osi]

um most of the ships, and technologies in stargate are impossible. Halo sticks to reality much better, Humans don't have shields, they use projectiles not pew pew guns, and they don't have artificial gravity until they encounter the covenant...which has stolen all its tech from a race which was super advanced and is now dead. Even the idea of building a halo is possible if you have the energy and tons of planets to scrap. So really, halo is more realistic than stargate...

[Tyber Zann]

Covernant: 73
Goa'uld: 58

Notes
Covernant: Argument centered mainly on fleet strength. Brief mention of ground warfare. Good counters and extra knowledge during public input.

Goa'uld: Good knowledge for Goa'uld space and land forces. Good intro. Unfortunately covernant argument had more depth in later stages.

Personal view of outcome from debate
The covernant superiority in space would prove a leading factor in any conflict. Have many powerful ground units, the hunter and brutes helping with planet occupation. However having weak units such as grunts to thicken the ranks would mean a land battle would be more in favour of the Goa'uld who can rely on super soldiers (from what I've seen have some pretty niffty armour) and jaffa who will not run "from the demon" Healing abilities are a bonus in drawn out conflicts as wounded soldiers use more resources.

No arguments with my marking. It will not be changed

TT

[semper]

Marking.

1: Intro - Covenant : Information good, but ultimately limited to space. Showing tactical analysis, but not expansive of an argument encompasing all possiblities. Also failing to define exactly WHAT the covenant is. It is something made of lots of different species, but what are it's goals and values that make it the covenant? There is more then obliteration to win a war.

- Goa'uld : To a very similar degree as the covenant debater, but you briefly touch upon ground forces. I believe you may have just been following the prophets suite in your introduction, hidden countering his points making your own the same.

Introduction notes overall: Both had good information, but lacked in some parts. Structure of the introduction was good though and in future could be a little more flowing and less robotic.

2: Arguments/main body : Covenant : High grades of information, but once again focusing solely on fleet engadgements, and lacking flow/real structure.

Goa'uld : Not so wide a range of information as the covenant, but a better presented argument.

3: Ability to counter : Covenant : Exceedingly well.

Goa'uld : Not an amazing ability.

4: answering public questions : Covenant : Once again, exceedingly high.

Goa'uld - Non displayed, but no opportunities presented themselves.


Penalties : false/mis information : Covenant:
1. "and before that a light cruiser obliterated the planets population in a matter of hours." - no according to halo wiki using a description of the battle of harvest, the covenant cruiser landed troops and attacked the suburbs before the populance were evacuated and the city militia began attacking the covenant. Then the cruiser was disabled using a mass driver a "Primitive" version of a MAC, allowing plenty of the populance to escape in an orbital station and then nearly a quatre of a million to escape. The entire planets populace was then eradicated, some 3million humans, by the glassing of the planet done so by a larger covenant cruiser.

2. "As stated above Covenant orbital cities can survive and impact with a moon" That was applied to the Heirophant, there is nothing to suggest that it goes for any others if possibly not all covenant orbital space stations.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Harvest

3. "Covenant Ground Forces use shielded as defenses rending the Goa'uld ability to blast through defenses inoperable" - I point out the halo games, basic human guns, and grenades (shotguns etc) and even covenant PLASMA weaponry is capable of easily enough breaking covenant personal shielding.

Goa'uld :
1. "and weak regular plasma" - Plasma is the same for every race. It is a state of being, like a solid, liquid, gas. It can be heated more, or fired faster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28physics%29

Marks:

1 (/20): Cov - 15, Goa'uld - 13
2 (/20): Cov - 14, Goa'uld - 12
3 (/15): Cov - 15, Goa'uld - 7
4 (/15): Cov - 15, Goa'uld - 7

and finally for structure/presentation or arguments: (/30) Cov - 13 Goa'uld - 14.

Totals : Cov - 72, Goa'uld - 54

combined with tom - Cov - 145/200 = 73 (70)% Goa'uld - 112/200 = 56 (55)%

*-1% for each penalty.

Cov grade = B, Goa'uld = D.

Final notes: I think that in this situation, it was the first debate to set off and it shows. For the interest of both participants id say apady, get a bit more detailed, and Prophet too much knowledge can sometimes be an achillies heel.

I finally add that the Covenants super lasers did exhaust the power of the cruisers on all but the largest of vessels, and that the goa'uld shields are penetrable by pin point kinetic energy (ie. darts, or needler guns...). In the end though id say this debate went to the covenant without the need to clarify using marks.

None the less. You have been graded.

[Osi]

Semper, hate to post now that its done but the light cruiser wiped out all but around 250,000 people within hours. It didnt glass the planet in that time but it crisscrossed the planet glassing towns before they took it down. It was then that a CCS Cruiser came and picked up the brutes, proceeded to glass the planet. Destroying three ships that came to take it down.

About the orbital shields, the Heirophant is a refit station, not exactly a glamerous super city...it would be safe to assume that High Charity could, with shields raised survive much worse.

Game mechanics are also a poor way to score as the level of the games difficulty increases the powr of shields....hardly a statement of physics. in the book the ability to blow through shields is easier then that of a goa'uld personal shield, but not as easly as tossing a grenade at it.

thanks for the advice though, next person that tries to throw down the Covenant will face a better structured arguement...and surely fail.

[Osi]

starting with the mac gun, the only reason they got a shot off was becuase they buried it.

[Tyber Zann]

Well done to both sides. Looking forward to next debate

TT