I would like to lodge a complaint.

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Empy
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Re: I would like to lodge a complaint.

Please, if you think calling someone retarded isn't abuse then... well I don't know, but you need to do some more thinking.
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Psyko
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Re: I would like to lodge a complaint.

WoofyBear wrote:
Psyko wrote:I would like to clear up the information regarding your warnings. It took me a second look and a clear head to see everything in your case.

1) You only have 1 warning
2) This warning was issued by Empy.
3) That was for Language (Abuse/Racism) - stating that you suppose the person in question actually is/was retarded - this one you challenge
sidenote: This warning was issued before BMMJ saw your original question regarding retardation and issued his verbal warning to you.
4) The other warnings issued by BMMJ and Empy were Verbals and do not add "points" against your account.
a. This includes the Verbal for Spam, the Verbal for "Engrish", and the Verbal for the retardation question


As to the stipulations for the Spam Verbal...
I can tell you I have never heard of a user note being edited. It may not be possible. Though notes could be added to provide an alternate post as an example. Really though, the Verbal does not count against you, and, as you admitted to being off topic within the thread in question, I do not see the importance of swapping out which quote is mentioned. Most mods merely look at the notes and not the quotes; those are usually examined by the Ombudsman during an appeal, or the GMs/Admins when looking into a user's dispute of a warning.

Now, given the nature of your actual board warning, the one where you did not merely ask a question, but made a statement as to the mental capacity of another forum user, I find that you will need to provide a slightly different clarification for making that post than you did in regards to BMMJ's comments about you questioning the person's mental capacity, as that has no bearing on the post in question.



The warning/point or whatever I got that Empy gave me due to me making my assumption about Roberts current mental state is directly related to the one BMMJ gave me which I believe is fully explained. If we are not as players allowed to make assessments of peoples current state be it physical mental social or emotional we are going no where as a society. There are examples in this section alone (and not necessarily in this particular thread) where mods themselves make assesment (judgement calls about people and their opinions of them) and their posts stand. They have also in my opinion and that of others that have posted in these threads and people I have spoken to) belittling to the uses and in no way appreciable polite and yet these also stand.

I do not feel that this is fair and just that the mods are allowed to do this with everyone over a few post on one page (make a judgement call about others "condition" or rather "opinion of their condition") and yet after me reading over 100 pages of a thread in which Robert posts I am not allowed to make my own opinion known when I feel I have asked a valid question and pretty much gotten my answer by seeing the same pattern of behavior occurring.

I maintain that my question was valid, it could be interpreted as rude but apparently rudeness is not against the rules here. Stating an outright insult or reviling private information about someone that they themselves have not relieved publicly in this forum is.. I have broken no rule is this. I have conceded that two of the 4 have merit in some form or another. I disagree completely with the two I am contesting. I can point out a post in Empy's feedback where someone actually called him a "tard" which i would consider an insult as it is a slang derivative of the TECHNICAL term I used when asking my question and then making my opinion known based on the response I got.. However, he, as with examples you gave me in chat covered it up with an emoticon as if saying it was a joke. This in MY opinion is done to skirt a rule. My post was not and consideration of the full events should be considered. Just because Robert chose to respond to me in another thread does not mean I have not gotten, what in my opinion was his answer, by interpreting his actions after my post in which I posed my question to him.

I think my position is clear. I contest the warnings/points related to me asking Robert a question and then interpreting his actions as my answer and stating my opinion. If we can not state an opinion here then simple comments like "You losts 200 mil spies in 3 minutes.. you suck". Because that would be a judgement call would it not? Based, once again, on someone's actions.

I have read more in this section within the last few hours and have seen, what in my opinon, is further evidence of my opinion. I do not know 100% that Robert has a mental illness as I have not gotten a DIRECT response from him, however from reading his posts in this section alone when he was banned it is a safe assumption and now I feel I know better how to handle situations with him. It was not meant as an insult more of an interpretation of his actions and me using that to form my conclusion and stating my conclusion. Any reasonable person would come to the same conclusion given the same information of events. Since I made my assumption based on his actions and no outside information, I can not further be warned for relieving any private information about him publicly.

The sequence of events, as best I can tell, are as follows:

Event 1: A user questions your game ability in several different threads, or at least multiple times in the same thread.
Event 2: You continue to answer him without an end to his posts in sight; your frustration culminating in an "Are you retarded?" post.
Event 3: He posts in yet another thread in regard to certain OE stats, including yours.
Event 4: You again question his mental capacity, making the assumption that he has read your responses to each post and has failed to understand.
Event 5: Empy warns you for your post in Event 4.
Event 6: BMMJ issues a verbal warning for your post in Event 2.

Now you insult this user further by stating that "anyone" could come to the same conclusion about his mental capacity. Honestly, I know for a fact that I have never reached that conclusion about anyone on this forum. Maybe I am just not a reasonable person by your definition. I do use the term insult, as it means "to speak or treat with disrespect or scorn," and that is what I see here. You have even said that you will treat the user differently now that you have verified/validated your own opinion/conclusion (ie You know how to handle situations with him in the future). You admit it is an assumption, but you disagree that such an assumption could be seen as insulting to the user you are making assumptions about?

Asking the direct question may not have been meant to sound insulting, but repeating your actions does not follow that same logic.

I could interpret your posts, or anyone's really, any way I like. The difference is that I do not publicly label or share my conclusions/interpretations about a person's personal health and/or ability. Something that would often be viewed as insulting, were they negative opinions/conclusions.

Many could conclude that I am a **Filtered**, but stating such a conclusion publicly would warrant a warning, whether or not it happens to be true. Had I a thinner skin, I might be offended by such a label or accusation upon my character, and I would expect Moderators would be there to point such a possibility out to the poster (which is what a Verbal warning is, nothing more), or to warn said user when they continue to post their harsh opinions around a public forum for all to see/read.
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Re: I would like to lodge a complaint.

It is not possible for anyone in the forum chain of command to edit user notes.

The only way to alter them, if possible at all, is through direct changes to the database. Access to that is restricted to the extremely few AdminJason grants it to.
In other words: no, user notes are not open for modification.
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Psyko
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Re: I would like to lodge a complaint.

Zeratul wrote:It is not possible for anyone in the forum chain of command to edit user notes.

The only way to alter them, if possible at all, is through direct changes to the database. Access to that is restricted to the extremely few AdminJason grants it to.
In other words: no, user notes are not open for modification.

Thank you for that clarification. :) Much appreciated.
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Re: I would like to lodge a complaint.

WoofyBear wrote:
Psyko wrote:I would like to clear up the information regarding your warnings. It took me a second look and a clear head to see everything in your case.

1) You only have 1 warning
2) This warning was issued by Empy.
3) That was for Language (Abuse/Racism) - stating that you suppose the person in question actually is/was retarded - this one you challenge
sidenote: This warning was issued before BMMJ saw your original question regarding retardation and issued his verbal warning to you.
4) The other warnings issued by BMMJ and Empy were Verbals and do not add "points" against your account.
a. This includes the Verbal for Spam, the Verbal for "Engrish", and the Verbal for the retardation question


As to the stipulations for the Spam Verbal...
I can tell you I have never heard of a user note being edited. It may not be possible. Though notes could be added to provide an alternate post as an example. Really though, the Verbal does not count against you, and, as you admitted to being off topic within the thread in question, I do not see the importance of swapping out which quote is mentioned. Most mods merely look at the notes and not the quotes; those are usually examined by the Ombudsman during an appeal, or the GMs/Admins when looking into a user's dispute of a warning.

Now, given the nature of your actual board warning, the one where you did not merely ask a question, but made a statement as to the mental capacity of another forum user, I find that you will need to provide a slightly different clarification for making that post than you did in regards to BMMJ's comments about you questioning the person's mental capacity, as that has no bearing on the post in question.



The warning/point or whatever I got that Empy gave me due to me making my assumption about Roberts current mental state is directly related to the one BMMJ gave me which I believe is fully explained. If we are not as players allowed to make assessments of peoples current state be it physical mental social or emotional we are going no where as a society. There are examples in this section alone (and not necessarily in this particular thread) where mods themselves make assesment (judgement calls about people and their opinions of them) and their posts stand. They have also in my opinion and that of others that have posted in these threads and people I have spoken to) belittling to the uses and in no way appreciable polite and yet these also stand.

I do not feel that this is fair and just that the mods are allowed to do this with everyone over a few post on one page (make a judgement call about others "condition" or rather "opinion of their condition") and yet after me reading over 100 pages of a thread in which Robert posts I am not allowed to make my own opinion known when I feel I have asked a valid question and pretty much gotten my answer by seeing the same pattern of behavior occurring.

I maintain that my question was valid, it could be interpreted as rude but apparently rudeness is not against the rules here. Stating an outright insult or reviling private information about someone that they themselves have not relieved publicly in this forum is.. I have broken no rule is this. I have conceded that two of the 4 have merit in some form or another. I disagree completely with the two I am contesting. I can point out a post in Empy's feedback where someone actually called him a "tard" which i would consider an insult as it is a slang derivative of the TECHNICAL term I used when asking my question and then making my opinion known based on the response I got.. However, he, as with examples you gave me in chat covered it up with an emoticon as if saying it was a joke. This in MY opinion is done to skirt a rule. My post was not and consideration of the full events should be considered. Just because Robert chose to respond to me in another thread does not mean I have not gotten, what in my opinion was his answer, by interpreting his actions after my post in which I posed my question to him.

I think my position is clear. I contest the warnings/points related to me asking Robert a question and then interpreting his actions as my answer and stating my opinion. If we can not state an opinion here then simple comments like "You losts 200 mil spies in 3 minutes.. you suck". Because that would be a judgement call would it not? Based, once again, on someone's actions.

I have read more in this section within the last few hours and have seen, what in my opinon, is further evidence of my opinion. I do not know 100% that Robert has a mental illness as I have not gotten a DIRECT response from him, however from reading his posts in this section alone when he was banned it is a safe assumption and now I feel I know better how to handle situations with him. It was not meant as an insult more of an interpretation of his actions and me using that to form my conclusion and stating my conclusion. Any reasonable person would come to the same conclusion given the same information of events. Since I made my assumption based on his actions and no outside information, I can not further be warned for relieving any private information about him publicly.

woofy're a doctor or a psychologist?
see that he has read 100 pages of mine and gave a diagnosis
and I do not need to write 1000 lines that say something stupid

I do not really loved moderators but begin to like when I see players like you
robert

edit: i used google translate now So no need to offending me again ;)
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Re: I would like to lodge a complaint.

Empy wrote:Please, if you think calling someone retarded isn't abuse then... well I don't know, but you need to do some more thinking.



Yet people can say something like "what did you do that for? Are you crazy?" same thing, someone making a conclusion based on previous observation. Why did you not edit out JTs post in Empy's feedback when he called Empy a tard? "TARD" is a slang term and IS an insult. My comment was moderated and edited.. yet JT's comment in Empy's feedback is not... is that perhaps favoritism or is it just an example of the moderators not being able to do everything on the forum and some things being overlooked because moderators are not infallible and their decisions are sometimes incorrect? (this is not off topic but will directly relate to this as proof that the mods can make mistakes and are not not perfect) Why is it that JT comes on here and then a blanket statement has to be issued to prevent spam and then he gets in this section again and creates not one but TWO threads in this section trying to derail my appeal? The two threads were, however, removed. Then he goes in a public section and create ANOTHER thread with a link to this one mocking not only the moderators by moving to a section that is not moderated by the same mods and continues, but does this in a way that is blatant character assassination and harassment? You see, since he did this in different sections, the same mods don't realize what he has done and things slip by. By this same logic, the mods did not read all my posts in the order in which they were made.. only as they were made in their section and things were taken out of context. Jt (it is my observation and reasonable conclusion) knows this and exploits this to continue spamming in the same way circumventing blanket moderation of spam and keeping the same spam going but in different sections preventing more sever reaction from any given mod as he simply continues in another mod's section. I am not going after JT personally HERE, but just establishing that the mods can and do make mistakes as they are people and not infallible. (below is an example of him doing this if taken in context with the threads that mods in this section were forced to remove and shows how this system can cause mistakes by mods and can allow users to exploit it to continue their abuse.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=194103&p=2478625#p2478625

Me pointing out what i see as abuse/harassment/spam that JT has done is not an attack on him or a meant to derail this thread in any way but is meant to prove that the mods do not follow users posts in chronological order and since mods do not know what is going on in another mod's section, mistakes can be made.. my case is that this time, it was a mistake that empy did not know my previous question I made in another thread. If he had, he may not have given me the warning and understood that I was drawing a conclusion based on my observations. In JTs case, he will push as far as he can in one mod's area before getting a warning and then take it to another mod's area a do the same. Because the mods "do not pay attention to other mod's sections" a mistake was made and i was punished.. and JT exploits this behavior to continue the same line of spamming/harassment/abuse on other users. This proves that mods can and do make mistakes sometimes because they do not have all the information.. sometimes just because they are human. If I can not appeal the warnings, mistakes can continue on the warning level and by the time it gets to actual points, I have to go back and "prove innocence" rather than the mods use what I would consider common sense and accept they are human and look at a rational and reasonable explanation rather than just saying "you said this in my section and I dont mod other sections so I don't know about that... "

Verbal warnings can not be appealed? Well, you get enough verbal warnings you get issued a point.. you get enough points you get banned... Well, I have already established that mods can and sometimes do make mistakes and over look things.. Like perhaps when Empy just takes a random post I made that was on topic and used that one to quote and warn me for spam. Yes, a simple mistake, but a mistake nonetheless and proof the mods are not infallible. If you can not appeal the warnings which could have been made as a mistake (since mods do make mistakes) and you get enough of these warnings (and perhaps some that were actually deserved) you will get points.... you can appeal the points.. but you would not have gotten the actual points if the mistakes had not been made by the mods with the WARNING. This is not a fair system if the mistakes from the mods can not be corrected at the warning stage. Now, because I have all these warnings and I already have a point, If i get more (deserved or made by mistake of another mod) I will accumulate more points... This is a problem in the system that is not allocating for MOD error and punishing the user as a result.

The mistake I made, according to bmmj, was not that I asked the question but the fact i tried to make sure it was understood it was, in fact, a question. This landed me a warning. I made a mistake by posting my conclusion to my question in another thread and not the thread of the original question. That is what landed me warning from Empy. Now, If i could appeal the original warning by explaining in a reasonable way that it was not an insult, (like empy did in my complaint towards him) then perhaps bmmj would remove that warning as I removed my complaint from Empy after his, what i feel, was a reasonable explanation. If Users can accept a reasonable explanation from a mod, mods should accept a reasonable explanation from a user. If Bmmj does accept my reasonable explanation, and the system allowed him to correct this warning Then I would not have so many warnings that are not deserved. Now, if bmmj does accept my reasonable explanation for my question and empy could perhaps understand that my post in the thread he moderated was in fact not meant as an insult but rather me stating a conclusion I had come to given the available information (continued actions by Robert). Then I would be able to have that particular warning removed. (fewer warnings accumulating due to error means less chance of someone getting a reputation as a disruption and repeat offender and there is less reason for appeals on points and bans by people who don't really deserve them.


It does not take a degree for someone to make a judgement call on something if given enough information and life experience. People here are not aware of my life experience or degrees and I have not posted them in this forum and if they state it here it is breaking the rules of reveling private information on another user.. I will, however, say that I have quite a fair bit of experience in this area with people and leave it at that. If a mod wishes to know so that they can have further back ground information they can get me on MSN as i do not wish my private life to be made public here. If you see a cup of dark liquid with steam coming off, and smell coffee, it is safe to assume there is hot coffee in it. I made a judgement call based on the posts I have seen and then flat out asked a question. I see the same behavior AGAIN and determine my assumption on it probably is true and state my conclusion. The only thing wrong with that is the fact that I posted my conclusion when I was upset and a thread modded by another moderator who did not see the original question. I mean come on! Do I REALLY have to explain the very rudimentary concepts of people LEARNING by observation? (observe, make assumption <hypothesis>, wait more and observe, draw conclusion) to people that are actually supposed to already know these things since they are "in control positions"????? REALLY? (technically you are supposed to make hypothesis (assumption), experiment (view available date), wait for results (view more of the data as it is made available in the process) and then draw conclusion but any reasonable person should be able to see this and should not need explanation to people who are supposed to have a fair grasp of English and enough experience to moderate a forum)

Perhaps it was wrong for me to post my conclusion. HOWEVER, asking the question was not an insult but what I felt was a valid question. If I had asked the size of a certain sexual organ, yes, i see how this could be considered an insult but a sexual organ was not what was being questioned nor observed. His behavior was, and the reason for his behavior is the reason I asked about his metal capability. I even made sure in the post it was understood it as a question and not insult. Some may consider it rude but it was not an insult and not my intention to insult. If I had wanted to insult him you would have seen filtered words all over my post (which, though words are filtered the meaning of the statement with them contained is still quite clear and insults are CONSTANTLY done this way here and people get away with that "CRAP" because the actual word used was filtered.

Now, I only asked the question ONCE. The modding/warnings issued for my comments were not done in the chronological order in which the posts were made. Timestamps on the posts and the timestamps on the user notes on my account will confirm. If my posts were followed in order I made them rather than in the order they appeared in the threads, it would be clear that I made no insult.

As far as me bringing this to this section and quoting the questions "Are you slightly retarded" is simple. It is not an insult, and if the moderators really considered it an insult then it would be a filtered work like racists insults and swear words are. I mean come on... People are CONSTANTLY making comments with filtered words here and the context of the sentence is quite clear and those comments are not removed. I have already shown here in a previous post in this thread and linked to that post an example of someone asking the SAME question of someone else and that post was NOT edited or removed!


Asking someone a personal question is not an insult in this case, especially if you clarify that its a question and not an insult. If you go making assumptions that every question someone may ask is an insult what would you think if you were in a conversation on msn with someone and they ask you what gender you are? Are you going to say that this is offensive? A form of sexual harassment, or a simple side question during the coarse of a conversation so that the person you are talking to can try to understand the background a bit more and try to understand the other persons point of view based on your experience with people of a specific gender and how they tend to react to certain subjects. you know.. preparing yourself to continue the conversation and be able to continue and better understand a person's behavior and point of view based on your experience and then their reactions after your question. The question could have been, after a long conversation not related to sex in the slightest.. "are you a female" or, "are you a male?". You might want to say I am insulting you either way depending your gender and how you tend to view the other gender.. it is determined by the wording.. so to be SPECIFIC, I made certain that someone with the most moderate English skills (English being required on this board) would understand it was a question.

If it is wrong to say retarded on this board, then the word should be filtered? If it was considered an insult, it would be filtered. "ass" is not filtered here. which can and often is used as an insult and body part. It is also used to describe a donkey/burrow. but the term used to describe a male donkey/burrow is filtered. The term Idiot is not filtered here but people are constantly called idiots and they are almost never removed from the post yet this is making a statement of someone's mental capacity. I do not believe I should be punished in this case because i used a TECHNICAL term in my question and then again conclusion. I can say in a situation here (for example and not meant as anything other than an example) I think the people posting in section x on this board are retarded. Look at what they are talking about .. Roses, and how they make people happy when "roses" were the topic last week and we are supposed to be talking about tulips this week and we already told them that a few times". See, same thing..

Is that an insult everyone in "section x" are to take personally? or rather an observation that they seem to be of lower mental capacity because they have already been told the new topic is tulips and they are still going on about roses? Or is it a simple observation based on available information? Would It be wrong to ask them if they were slow? It means the same thing is this case. If I asked "are people in this section x are a bit slow." would that mean I am insulting them? Even though all available information points to the fact that they probably are... Then I wait and see they continue with the same pattern and then phrase it as a statement of conclusion through observation. Would this be insulting everyone in section x or would be be a simple process of observation that is clearly available to anyone to see?

ENGLISH is required on this board, and with a reasonable person reading mine and Roberts posts in the order they were made (all sections) they would have seen that I was making an observation. OBSERVATIONS are not against the rules... Stating your observations are not against the rules. Am I going to be warned for saying someone is too slow when banking? Am I going to be warned if i say someone's is is retarded with their banking skills? Means the same in this context.. slow... but could be taking as an insult IF the second was used and no one had the back ground information.. ie attack logs proving every time this person farmed I hit them before they banked. Saying someone is a bit slow is not an insult and warn-able offense. Because I ask a REASON for their slowness I get punished. Either way, its an observation. It is an ENGLISH word and if you want to filter it as an insult, then do so. But punishing me for something that is not against the rules is wrong.

I ask you to read the posts of me and Robert in the order they were posted (by the users, not just in order posted in an individual thread) and tell me.. Would you ask if there was a real (perhaps medical) reason for this behavior or just would you say "Are you a piece of **Filtered** or what?" and call them names at random? Sorry if i tend to look for a reason the PLAYER is doing something rather than just spout out insults that are filtered knowing i am just going to get filtered and still get away with a REAL insult. NO, I dont do that, if I did do that, none of this would be an issue. I would not have been warned. I would not be making this appeal to an unjust system. No, I would be sitting here harassing people, derailing threads by going into different sections to skirt the mods attention by doing the same thing in each but not enough to be really punished fairly in either because i am spreading it out. NO, that is not me nor the pattern of behavior I subscribe to. I think rational.. at least most of the time, and I look for reasons for behavior rather than just spouting out insults. If I was that kind of person I probably would have gotten on here screaming and threatening to mass empy and bmmj in game and then post repeatedly that I will do it to every mod until I am unbanned and then maybe say, I don't need this forum. I have the OE forum and we dont have mods... oh wait.. someone already did that.. in this section.. however I was paraphrasing for use in this example of behavior traits that could be considered a patter of behavior that, with someone seeing it a lot, could make a more or less accurate observation of their mental capacity. (I can put a link if you would like to read and see for yourself..)

My behavior here (with respect to a few posts as I am not perfect, yet human) has been very rational and should be, for the average person not jumping to conclusions, easy to understand as well as posted in a way that tries to be respectful and not that of a person who has shown a patter of behavior of insulting people. I have given a very rational reason for my question and for why I posted my conclusion. (I considered his further actions to be my answer/conclusion. I believe this should be proof enough that I know enough of the English language and know what I am talking about when I say I did not insult, nor intend to insult Robert but make a rational observation based on the events unfolding in his posts over threads moderated by different mods. If I had shown a pattern of behavior in my posts that would lead someone to believe I was trying to skirt the rules, then yes, I would deserve warnings for this. They could then, through the same process I used, draw a conclusion that would probably be accurate by looking simply at the patter of behavior. No degree required. It was not my intention of insulting Robert in these two posts I am referring to. Now that I have formed my conclusion through observations of his actions and getting even more back ground information by actually reading more of his posts that were much older, I can conclude that I may be mistaken in my conclusion and there are other reasons for his behavior. I choose now not to post my conclusions on this as I have already been warned for posting questions and conclusions and this particular conclusion most certainly would be filtered and probably WOULD be an insult.

This entire process has been quite interesting to say the least as I have made many more observations and been able to see even more patterns of behavior that have helped me learn a lot more about this forum, and the system by which it operates from the user level up to moderator. It has also been very cumbersome trying to defend MY actions when I am being judged by the actions of others and the observations of others and not being given the benefit of the doubt and judged on the merit of MY pattern of behavior.

If actually judged on MY behavior the average person would probably conclude that I am at times a very blunt person, a bit sarcastic at times. Sometimes loosing composure. Very observant and constantly analyzing the behavior and actions around me so that I can better learn about them and why they do certain things.

I would NOT be considered someone that would insult people, get warnings constantly (record speaks for itself if my record to this point is actually accurate). I would not be considered someone that would be trying to jump in the spot light, circumvent rules, spam till i a blanket warning is given and then continue spam of the same sort in other sections and derail valid points being made by someone.

Yes, I can be sarcastic, but I am not one to get on here and post insults or filtered words every other sentence. I have a grasp of the English language that allows me to express myself enough that those words are not needed. I ask you to look at MY pattern of behavior in all my posts I have made on this board (not really that many actually but I have been reading this forum for quite some time). Ask yourself what kind of person "I" am, Look at my behavior (ALL my posts) and then draw the conclusion if you think, based on my pattern of behavior, If you honestly think that I would be on here insulting people intentionally. Yes, I have had a few times to loose composure, but I have not been insulting. The few times I have lost composure I have spoken (eventually when I regained composure) to the people I lost it with, through various programs and pms, and worked out my differences with them.

I ask you to look at my behavior and consider THAT when you look at this appeal. NOT just stereotype me based on the posters in the threads these two warnings occurred and the animosity that seems to be going on between the members of my alliance and Roberts.
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Cobolt wrote:
Another important thing regarding such things are that I also feel that my "shadow" shouldn´t be "everywhere" in the alliance. A legacy is in my opinion a good thing as long as it is on a foundation level, values and such. But if it seeps to much into things it is very hard for current leadership to make own policy as ppl tend to referr to "old ways" wich rarely are up to date.... As I have said to other leaders, it was never my intention to try to keep the alliance as a static entity - infact quite the opposite, I was adamant to keep evolving the alliance according to how the game developed, only thing I felt needed to be solid is the sprit, heart and foundation of Titans that in my opinion could be described with a few words - "good guys". :)
[/quote]
Spoiler
~Desert Phantom~ wrote:
Kjarkur wrote:
~Desert Phantom~ wrote:DDE SUCK...that is all!!!
Bring it on TAF. ;)
TAF posted that?!?!...I thought ~DP~did!!!
Osiris™ wrote:
~Desert Phantom~ wrote:DDE SUCK...that is all!!!

If there is anything you do suck on then its my back vagina ;)
You sir must like men doesn't mean I do and if I did KJ would be my type I don't go after bottom feeders :smt078
ZERO
Spoiler
On 1/14/14, at 5:12 PM, Dean Bailey Z E R O 1907332 HVE Canadia wrote:
> glad his return overshadowed our betrayal.
Empy
Derper
Posts: 7215
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:02 pm
Race: Eldar
Location: The other side of the fence

Re: I would like to lodge a complaint.

First of all, I think anyone who read all of that post deserves some sort of rewards... as it was quite lengthy. I did read it, and I think the first thing you need to do is please stop insulting the Moderators. I speak of course of your insinuations that the Mods on these boards don't have a proper grasp of English and have a low intelligence, etc.

WoofyBear wrote:Yet people can say something like "what did you do that for? Are you crazy?" same thing, someone making a conclusion based on previous observation. Why did you not edit out JTs post in Empy's feedback when he called Empy a tard? "TARD" is a slang term and IS an insult. My comment was moderated and edited.. yet JT's comment in Empy's feedback is not... is that perhaps favoritism or is it just an example of the moderators not being able to do everything on the forum and some things being overlooked because moderators are not infallible and their decisions are sometimes incorrect?
The example you quoted is not the same thing as directly calling someone retarded. Calling someone retarded is a personal insult.

I read the post Jedi~Tank made in my feedback thread, and that was not an insult. I'm not going to go into why it wasn't because it's not material to this.

Of course the Mods aren't perfect.

WoofyBear wrote:(this is not off topic but will directly relate to this as proof that the mods can make mistakes and are not not perfect) Why is it that JT comes on here and then a blanket statement has to be issued to prevent spam and then he gets in this section again and creates not one but TWO threads in this section trying to derail my appeal? The two threads were, however, removed. Then he goes in a public section and create ANOTHER thread with a link to this one mocking not only the moderators by moving to a section that is not moderated by the same mods and continues, but does this in a way that is blatant character assassination and harassment? You see, since he did this in different sections, the same mods don't realize what he has done and things slip by.
Pointless. What you just said was pointless, without point. Jedi~Tank is not a party in this appeal, what he is currently doing is not related to the warnings you received. Nothing he did in other sections is material when judging if the post you linked is against any rules, except in very specific circumstances which do not apply here.

The Mods are much more aware and communicative than you believe, as well.

WoofyBear wrote:By this same logic, the mods did not read all my posts in the order in which they were made.. only as they were made in their section and things were taken out of context. Jt (it is my observation and reasonable conclusion) knows this and exploits this to continue spamming in the same way circumventing blanket moderation of spam and keeping the same spam going but in different sections preventing more sever reaction from any given mod as he simply continues in another mod's section. I am not going after JT personally HERE, but just establishing that the mods can and do make mistakes as they are people and not infallible. (below is an example of him doing this if taken in context with the threads that mods in this section were forced to remove and shows how this system can cause mistakes by mods and can allow users to exploit it to continue their abuse.
You're right I didn't read the post you made in BMMJ's section, and I can't even name the section it was in either. Again, Jedi~Tank's posts are not material here. I'll humor you for a tiny bit though... Him trolling you is not against the rules so even if he does it in every section of the forums it doesn't change anything. Off-topic threads and posts are equally prosecuted and documented wherever they're made, so it doesn't matter if he does a little in each section it adds up all the same.

WoofyBear wrote:Me pointing out what i see as abuse/harassment/spam that JT has done is not an attack on him or a meant to derail this thread in any way but is meant to prove that the mods do not follow users posts in chronological order and since mods do not know what is going on in another mod's section, mistakes can be made.. my case is that this time, it was a mistake that empy did not know my previous question I made in another thread. If he had, he may not have given me the warning and understood that I was drawing a conclusion based on my observations. In JTs case, he will push as far as he can in one mod's area before getting a warning and then take it to another mod's area a do the same. Because the mods "do not pay attention to other mod's sections" a mistake was made and i was punished.. and JT exploits this behavior to continue the same line of spamming/harassment/abuse on other users. This proves that mods can and do make mistakes sometimes because they do not have all the information.. sometimes just because they are human. If I can not appeal the warnings, mistakes can continue on the warning level and by the time it gets to actual points, I have to go back and "prove innocence" rather than the mods use what I would consider common sense and accept they are human and look at a rational and reasonable explanation rather than just saying "you said this in my section and I dont mod other sections so I don't know about that... "
I don't care if you think calling someone a retard was just an observation, it's still an insult. "Observations" (if you want to call this that) can be insults, even if you think you conducted some sort of scientific study here to come to your amateur conclusion. Even if I had read the post you made in the other section first I would've given you the exact same warning. Were I to mod them in chronological order both myself here's what would happen; you'd get a verbal warning for abuse, the same one BMMJ gave you, and you would get a Board Warning for abuse, the same one I gave you.

WoofyBear wrote:Verbal warnings can not be appealed? Well, you get enough verbal warnings you get issued a point.. you get enough points you get banned... Well, I have already established that mods can and sometimes do make mistakes and over look things..
I agree verbal warnings should be allowed to be appealed.

WoofyBear wrote:Like perhaps when Empy just takes a random post I made that was on topic and used that one to quote and warn me for spam. Yes, a simple mistake, but a mistake nonetheless and proof the mods are not infallible. If you can not appeal the warnings which could have been made as a mistake (since mods do make mistakes) and you get enough of these warnings (and perhaps some that were actually deserved) you will get points.... you can appeal the points.. but you would not have gotten the actual points if the mistakes had not been made by the mods with the WARNING. This is not a fair system if the mistakes from the mods can not be corrected at the warning stage. Now, because I have all these warnings and I already have a point, If i get more (deserved or made by mistake of another mod) I will accumulate more points... This is a problem in the system that is not allocating for MOD error and punishing the user as a result.
No, I didn't make a mistake. The post I quoted in the verbal warning you received was off topic.

WoofyBear wrote:The mistake I made, according to bmmj, was not that I asked the question but the fact i tried to make sure it was understood it was, in fact, a question. This landed me a warning.
No you're incorrect. As I understand it, you asked R0B3RT if he was retarded. Which in my opinion is abuse. Furthermore you went on to state in your post to clarify that this wasn't actually an insult but just a question. That's the part BMMJ was talking about, you knew what you said would almost certainly be taken as an insult which in his mind only solidified the fact it was abuse.

WoofyBear wrote:I made a mistake by posting my conclusion to my question in another thread and not the thread of the original question. That is what landed me warning from Empy. Now, If i could appeal the original warning by explaining in a reasonable way that it was not an insult, (like empy did in my complaint towards him) then perhaps bmmj would remove that warning as I removed my complaint from Empy after his, what i feel, was a reasonable explanation. If Users can accept a reasonable explanation from a mod, mods should accept a reasonable explanation from a user. If Bmmj does accept my reasonable explanation, and the system allowed him to correct this warning Then I would not have so many warnings that are not deserved. Now, if bmmj does accept my reasonable explanation for my question and empy could perhaps understand that my post in the thread he moderated was in fact not meant as an insult but rather me stating a conclusion I had come to given the available information (continued actions by Robert). Then I would be able to have that particular warning removed. (fewer warnings accumulating due to error means less chance of someone getting a reputation as a disruption and repeat offender and there is less reason for appeals on points and bans by people who don't really deserve them.
No, you're wrong. It wouldn't have mattered where you posted the insult you made, it was still an insult. Whether or not it was a conclusion you came to doesn't matter. Your logic is illogical. Just because you "gathered evidence" and came to a "conclusion" or however you want to spin it the fact remains; you called him retarded, that's abuse.


WoofyBear wrote:It does not take a degree for someone to make a judgement call on something if given enough information and life experience. People here are not aware of my life experience or degrees and I have not posted them in this forum and if they state it here it is breaking the rules of reveling private information on another user.. I will, however, say that I have quite a fair bit of experience in this area with people and leave it at that. If a mod wishes to know so that they can have further back ground information they can get me on MSN as i do not wish my private life to be made public here. If you see a cup of dark liquid with steam coming off, and smell coffee, it is safe to assume there is hot coffee in it. I made a judgement call based on the posts I have seen and then flat out asked a question. I see the same behavior AGAIN and determine my assumption on it probably is true and state my conclusion. The only thing wrong with that is the fact that I posted my conclusion when I was upset and a thread modded by another moderator who did not see the original question. I mean come on! Do I REALLY have to explain the very rudimentary concepts of people LEARNING by observation? (observe, make assumption <hypothesis>, wait more and observe, draw conclusion) to people that are actually supposed to already know these things since they are "in control positions"????? REALLY? (technically you are supposed to make hypothesis (assumption), experiment (view available date), wait for results (view more of the data as it is made available in the process) and then draw conclusion but any reasonable person should be able to see this and should not need explanation to people who are supposed to have a fair grasp of English and enough experience to moderate a forum)
All pointless, you called him retarded. Doesn't matter if you came to a conclusion based on life experiences, or whatever.

WoofyBear wrote:Perhaps it was wrong for me to post my conclusion. HOWEVER, asking the question was not an insult but what I felt was a valid question. If I had asked the size of a certain sexual organ, yes, i see how this could be considered an insult but a sexual organ was not what was being questioned nor observed. His behavior was, and the reason for his behavior is the reason I asked about his metal capability. I even made sure in the post it was understood it as a question and not insult. Some may consider it rude but it was not an insult and not my intention to insult. If I had wanted to insult him you would have seen filtered words all over my post (which, though words are filtered the meaning of the statement with them contained is still quite clear and insults are CONSTANTLY done this way here and people get away with that "CRAP" because the actual word used was filtered.

Now, I only asked the question ONCE. The modding/warnings issued for my comments were not done in the chronological order in which the posts were made. Timestamps on the posts and the timestamps on the user notes on my account will confirm. If my posts were followed in order I made them rather than in the order they appeared in the threads, it would be clear that I made no insult.
Calling someone a retard is abuse. Simple as that.

WoofyBear wrote:As far as me bringing this to this section and quoting the questions "Are you slightly retarded" is simple. It is not an insult, and if the moderators really considered it an insult then it would be a filtered work like racists insults and swear words are. I mean come on... People are CONSTANTLY making comments with filtered words here and the context of the sentence is quite clear and those comments are not removed. I have already shown here in a previous post in this thread and linked to that post an example of someone asking the SAME question of someone else and that post was NOT edited or removed!
Faulty logic. Just because something is not on the filter doesn't mean it's not abuse when directed towards someone else.


WoofyBear wrote:Asking someone a personal question is not an insult in this case, especially if you clarify that its a question and not an insult. If you go making assumptions that every question someone may ask is an insult what would you think if you were in a conversation on msn with someone and they ask you what gender you are? Are you going to say that this is offensive? A form of sexual harassment, or a simple side question during the coarse of a conversation so that the person you are talking to can try to understand the background a bit more and try to understand the other persons point of view based on your experience with people of a specific gender and how they tend to react to certain subjects. you know.. preparing yourself to continue the conversation and be able to continue and better understand a person's behavior and point of view based on your experience and then their reactions after your question. The question could have been, after a long conversation not related to sex in the slightest.. "are you a female" or, "are you a male?". You might want to say I am insulting you either way depending your gender and how you tend to view the other gender.. it is determined by the wording.. so to be SPECIFIC, I made certain that someone with the most moderate English skills (English being required on this board) would understand it was a question.
All questions aren't insults, but the one you asked was.

WoofyBear wrote:ENGLISH is required on this board, and with a reasonable person reading mine and Roberts posts in the order they were made (all sections) they would have seen that I was making an observation. OBSERVATIONS are not against the rules... Stating your observations are not against the rules. Am I going to be warned for saying someone is too slow when banking? Am I going to be warned if i say someone's is is retarded with their banking skills? Means the same in this context.. slow... but could be taking as an insult IF the second was used and no one had the back ground information.. ie attack logs proving every time this person farmed I hit them before they banked. Saying someone is a bit slow is not an insult and warn-able offense. Because I ask a REASON for their slowness I get punished. Either way, its an observation. It is an ENGLISH word and if you want to filter it as an insult, then do so. But punishing me for something that is not against the rules is wrong.
Nope observations aren't against the rules, but the OBSERVATION you made was.

Sorry, I'm tired of replying to your post and don't wanna do it anymore. I made my point. Chronological order of your posts doesn't matter as the same conclusion would be reached. Whether or not you made some sort of amateur psychological profile of R0B3RT's mental state and then stated your conclusion doesn't change the fact that your conclusion, or observation as you call it, was a personal insult. Mods aren't perfect and make mistakes, but none were made here.
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WoofyBear
Forum Irregular
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:26 am
Alliance: Ω TITAN
Race: BEAR
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Re: I would like to lodge a complaint.

you know empy, I have nothing against you or the mods but I do see many inconsistencies here. You call me an amateur a few times.. and say that what i said was pointless (three times to make emphasis on your intention. You called me an amateur many times. You have no idea of the degrees I hold and the amount of formal education I have had. Were you saying that to insult me or my economical standing? It seems you were since you repeated it. Are you going to give yourself a warning and officially mod your post? By your logical reasoning you are applying to my case, you are breaking the rules.


My reference to JTs posts and threads were quite relevant as they show the inconsistency of things and the way people are going out of their way to skirt the rules.. to make sure people knew I was not skirting it i CONFIRMED my intentions! Because you did not confirm your intentions do you get away with it?

Yes, the post you marked as spam was on topic. You want me to paste it again for you and show you links on the board of others doing the same?

I am not trying to insult the mods here or their intelligence. I simply try to point out that anyone can understand things and make a mistake once in a while. Simply trying to (as you demonstrated) stress stress something by repeating it many times. I wrote in plain English, no slang terms at all. Proper English. This should not be interpreted as anything else. No double meaning.. And then just before I hit post I thought about it. "damn, knowing all this going on someone is going to think i am going after Robert.. I better confirm my intentions".. and then I get warned because I confirmed it was a question.

I accepted the reason you gave me for what i took as an insult.. If i had not would you get a warning? Why is it I can accept a rational explanation you give me, but you wont even give do the same for me and judge me by the posts I have made prior to this event and give me the benefit of the doubt. No, I do not have anyone else that can look in my head and see my intentions and confirm my side as you do with other mods who can confirm yours. Rather, I come on here and get talked down to and called an amateur on more than one occasion in the same post. No one here can claim I am amateur in any field as no one here knows me personally or my degree of intelligence or education without making assumptions and drawing a conclusion.

You are getting tired of reading it? I am tired of writing it and trying to defend a position that I feel is being attacked because someone tries to go in and find a double meaning in my post!

You are right empy, it all does seem pointless. Pointless to try to make an appeal with people who expect you to accept their reasoning for something and not do the same for you. Yes, I agree. It seems that way. But I know what happened and I see the injustice here and will continue with my appeal.

Might I make the assumption that you will not consider that you might want to do for others that you expect them to do for you and accept a rational reason for something? I would hope so.

I really have nothing against you Empy, or any of the mod staff. I just wish for you to understand that because you see something you think is breaking the rules and click away doing your modding job does not mean you can not make mistakes and take things out of context. I would HOPE that this section of the forum would be a place where rational discussion on this matter could take place and people could understand that some people might take things the wrong way or make a mistake.

This was, in fact, a mistake on behalf of the mods.



I would like to add something and i really do not want any misinterpretation of this either. I DO have respect for the mods here and I do realize is is a volunteer position and the mods are not paid. I KNOW the work hours are long and the work often tedious. I know people pick on mods a lot and take even take it to the server. I do have respect for people that endure this, get no pay and take the crap from people. I realize it is a "thankless job". Most times the quick replies are the easiest but tend to take much longer to get things done. I have made it a point to try to explain in detail the situation but that seems to be picked apart the same and the same result of making the job tedious for the mods and myself in this case which is not something I wanted for you or for me. I think the mods do a great job almost all the time (they are human and do make mistakes from time to time like everyone else) and I know they MUST have some VERY good English skills to deal with some issues that arise since people do use slang and jargon constantly on this board. The mod staff SHOULD be paid for having to take all the stress they deal with and the hours they spend here. The amount of dedication is astounding at times. I admit that I have been aggressive in my stance in this thread because I believe and know what I am saying. Just as you. I do have the utmost respect for people that do volunteer work. I have done my fair share of it.
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"...Although I have made a career out of remodeling the truth into convenient shapes while taking possession of commodities legally belonging to others. I would dispute the fact that what I've done has been wrong. Legally yes, but you should know that the universe is not by nature an equitable distributor of good health and good fortune."

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Everyone else has nice little quotes about them in their sig.. I thought this one would be snazzy...
AeonKnight wrote: You know you single Handedly made nearly all of them inacitve. well done.
Spoiler
Cobolt wrote:
Another important thing regarding such things are that I also feel that my "shadow" shouldn´t be "everywhere" in the alliance. A legacy is in my opinion a good thing as long as it is on a foundation level, values and such. But if it seeps to much into things it is very hard for current leadership to make own policy as ppl tend to referr to "old ways" wich rarely are up to date.... As I have said to other leaders, it was never my intention to try to keep the alliance as a static entity - infact quite the opposite, I was adamant to keep evolving the alliance according to how the game developed, only thing I felt needed to be solid is the sprit, heart and foundation of Titans that in my opinion could be described with a few words - "good guys". :)
[/quote]
Spoiler
~Desert Phantom~ wrote:
Kjarkur wrote:
~Desert Phantom~ wrote:DDE SUCK...that is all!!!
Bring it on TAF. ;)
TAF posted that?!?!...I thought ~DP~did!!!
Osiris™ wrote:
~Desert Phantom~ wrote:DDE SUCK...that is all!!!

If there is anything you do suck on then its my back vagina ;)
You sir must like men doesn't mean I do and if I did KJ would be my type I don't go after bottom feeders :smt078
ZERO
Spoiler
On 1/14/14, at 5:12 PM, Dean Bailey Z E R O 1907332 HVE Canadia wrote:
> glad his return overshadowed our betrayal.
Psyko
The Irresistible
Posts: 5636
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:09 pm
ID: 0
Location: USA

Re: I would like to lodge a complaint.

I have had ENOUGH!

This thread is to discuss WARNINGS ONLY!


Thread cleaned. Warnings issued. Patience gone.

For the time being, this thread shall remain locked.
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