Farming Discussion

But not bugs.
Slim87R
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Farming Discussion

I thought of something that might help make farming more viable. Increase naq carrying capacity 10x what it is now. Right now in order to farm anything decent you have to bloat your MS numbers very high. This leads to too many MS deaths per attack which will stagnate your growth, or even reverse growth after just a few attacks. This will lower the amount of MS you need to farm which will lower MS deaths drastically, this way you can farm without losing growth.

In order to implement this you would also have to limit what could be given to others to 10x instead of 100x carrying capacity. Right now it is easier to just get naq given to you from larger accounts, and you can receive much more that way than you could ever farm.

Sorry if this has already been suggested, but I think you would see alot more activity on the server if you implemented this. I also think that MS stats should be higher. right now you can have 50k MS and the stats would still be tiny compared to a middle sized ground force.

If anyone has any ideas to make this post better, please chime in.
Last edited by Slim87R on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Juliette
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Re: Farming Bandaid

Farming is profitable until 1k MS. Beyond that, and MS tech becomes extremely important in the 'quest' to make farming profitable.
If you go for Income, farming is going to be a red-headed stepchild.

I am all for making things fit the paradigm, but right now, most accounts that 'complain' about loss ratios are just not set up to deal with the reality of the game's mechanics.
This is not me saying complaints are 'wrong', they are quite right.. but the balance chart (dependencies, limits, etcetera) is almost complete. ;) That should allow for far less intrusive balancing actions.



The other thread had a good thought too.
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Slim87R
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Re: Farming Bandaid

Juliette wrote:Farming is profitable until 1k MS. Beyond that, and MS tech becomes extremely important in the 'quest' to make farming profitable.
If you go for Income, farming is going to be a red-headed stepchild.

I am all for making things fit the paradigm, but right now, most accounts that 'complain' about loss ratios are just not set up to deal with the reality of the game's mechanics.
This is not me saying complaints are 'wrong', they are quite right.. but the balance chart (dependencies, limits, etcetera) is almost complete. ;) That should allow for far less intrusive balancing actions.



The other thread had a good thought too.


LOL, going for income doesn't make farming a red-headed stepchild, size does. Even if you have 0 income and go for farming 100%, you will not be able to grow at all once you have a mildly decent sized account. The amount of miners you have makes no impact on farming ability at all. Right now you have to have income because farming makes growth impossible. There is currently no way to set up an account for farming. This is due to the games mechanics like you said. If farming was viable then you would have people who farm a lot in the top ranks. The only people in top ranks right now sit and grow. The proof is in the numbers. Eventually small/new players will find this out, then just sit and grow as well.

Edit: Or they will just get bored and quit. :?
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Juliette
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Re: Farming Bandaid

Yes. Your point is very valid.

However. Your PM is also valid.. I need to balance the two.
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Slim87R
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Re: Farming Bandaid

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Well I guess I will post it here then to see what others think:

Code: Select all

Well, everyone agrees that the original idea that was implemented wasn't very good. Cutting everyone by 90% when farming already isn't practical is not a very good idea. Here are some of the ideas discussed:

My idea was to limit income techs to 2k. This would put a ceiling on anyones ability to exponentially grow, but would not lower income for new players if they decided to go mostly income for techs.

A counter idea was proposed to eliminate techs all together for income and increase the natural income production of miners to be equivalent to 10k income tech. This would boost income levels for newbies while slightly dropping them for the most powerful accounts in the game.

I thought that was still a little too powerful so I threw out the idea of having a natural mining equivalent of 5k tech. The only real problem I had with this was the void it would leave in the tech structure making it so higher level accounts would just throw everything into stats making them uber powerful.

A third idea was proposed to have a logarithmic scale instead of a linear one. I thought this was the best one myself. The more techs you buy the less each of the individual techs are worth. This makes it so there is no massive void and makes you have to actually think about your tech structure. This would also be easiest on new players and stop exponential growth on the upper end. This particular idea would probably be the hardest to implement. No matter how you guys decide to fix the incredibly high income, other costs would have to be considered. Tech, UP and potentially covert/AC level costs would ha to be looked at for balancing purposes.

I had a separate idea to limit super fast growth to 20 and nobody commented on it so here it is: In order to stop people from just putting everything into MS count and techs to load up ridiculous amounts of naq in a short time for a speed ascension, I think it might be a good idea to halve the free PPT for ascending. The logistics behind speed ascending twice a day would be incredibly difficult and expensive. This wouldn't stop people from stopping to build at different levels or force people to take 1 path. It just stops people from feeding off their alliances. The only people that the freebie PPT is important to are those that are power ascending anyways. That particular idea might be stupid, didn't really discuss it much with my alliance.


Turns out most people thought the PPT halving idea was stupid... :?
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Juliette
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Re: Farming Bandaid

We all have things we think are awesome which others prove to be stupid in a minute. ;)

I look forward to more replies.
(Feel free to edit your thread title to something like "Farming - discussion"; or I will edit it..)
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Cwalen
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Re: Farming Discussion

Anything is brilliant or stupid, depending on your perspective.

Perhaps my MS is allready what Slim considers bloated.

I do not seem to have any problem at all in finding viable farming targets (50M+)
Most of them seem to me to be 0 def.

An inactive high income account will naturally be beaten down to 0 def, and we are not short on them.

/>

We have a linear scale not a log one? BROKEN! Positive feedback loops lead to infinity. Log controlled functions slow down as they approach infinity.

I think the best solution is to make the AP ten times higher for ascending. Fast ascenders get a small ascended account, new player get to get into the game, exclusivity is still preserved, the established players get a stream of new players to contend with.

"We all have things we think are awesome which others prove to be stupid in a minute. ;)"?
Anything is brilliant or stupid, depending on your perspective.
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HippyFool
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Re: Farming Discussion

I actually really like the idea of making the amount you farm 10x more, and then reducing what you can receive to 10x that. As you said, you can then farm 10x more but receive the same.

I also REALLY like the idea of increasing the amount of att/def that MS adds. Right now it is pitiful.

____________

Cwalen wrote:
Perhaps my MS is allready what Slim considers bloated.

I do not seem to have any problem at all in finding viable farming targets (50M+)
Most of them seem to me to be 0 def.

An inactive high income account will naturally be beaten down to 0 def, and we are not short on them.



Let us consider farming vs income.

Cwalen... thinking that a 50m+ target is viable is all well and good at low ascension lvls, but completely useless at lvl 25. Why you may ask? I have only 1k MS and haven't farmed for a long time because I do not need to as my income is: 1,240,306,068,720 per turn.

Farming is literally a waste of time. I COULD afford to farm people that have left out 100tril+ naq but it would actually cost me MORE to take it than if I were to just leave my income as is.

Let's see some numbers:

14,294,000 miners
15,000 income techs
1,240,306,068,720 income per turn
59,534,691,298,560 income per day

1,700 defense techs
2,000,000 defense units
18,002,200,000,000 defense (2,200,000,000 of which is from my MS)

Now.. assuming it was free for me to reset my techs and get 20k MS techs.

14,294,000 miners get untrained and made into 285,880 MS
2,000,000 defense units get untrained and made into 40,000 MS
TOTAL MS = 325,880
All my techs removed from income/att/def/cov/AC and put into 20k MS

Currently with 2k MS and 1k MS techs I have:

2,000 with Total Capacity: 2,200,000
Carrying: 200,000 units. Naq Capacity: 2,000,000,000 (would be 2,200,000,000 if i had no att units)

In this hypothetical situation, my MS becomes: (assume the 200k att units are removed)

327,880 with Total Capacity: 360,668,000
Carrying: 0 units. Naq Capacity: 360,668,000,000

that is units added... now make techs 20k instead of 1k:

327,880 with Total Capacity: 6,590,388,000
Carrying: 0 units. Naq Capacity: 6,590,388,000,000

_________

New stats:

Income per day/turn: 0
Strike: 8,237,985,000,000
Defense: 6,590,388,000,000

Able to take 6,590,388,000,000 per 15 attacks. Get 12.8 attacks per day.
Maximum daily intake = (6,590,388,000,000 x 12.8 ) = 84,356,966,400,000

__________

Hmm I am not sure if I just proved or disproved my point. #-o
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Naq sold to date: 6168tril

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Freestyle304
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Re: Farming Discussion

You would be able to make more farming that way, IF you didn't suffer losses at the current rates, and IF you could find targets that big, and IF you could beat their defense at no cost.

BUT 100k UP would only cover a loss of 156 MS per hit for 12.8 hits per day - far far smaller than you would see with that big a fleet (you wouldn't have turns to raid because you are using them for naq farming)
AND if farming started happening at that level, people wouldn't leave out that much
AND it is easy to make a defense to beat even what you calculated for your 327,880 MS fleet.

SO, nope. Farming sucks. You proved your point. =D>


HippyFool wrote:I actually really like the idea of making the amount you farm 10x more, and then reducing what you can receive to 10x that. As you said, you can then farm 10x more but receive the same.

I also REALLY like the idea of increasing the amount of att/def that MS adds. Right now it is pitiful.

____________

Cwalen wrote:
Perhaps my MS is allready what Slim considers bloated.

I do not seem to have any problem at all in finding viable farming targets (50M+)
Most of them seem to me to be 0 def.

An inactive high income account will naturally be beaten down to 0 def, and we are not short on them.



Let us consider farming vs income.

Cwalen... thinking that a 50m+ target is viable is all well and good at low ascension lvls, but completely useless at lvl 25. Why you may ask? I have only 1k MS and haven't farmed for a long time because I do not need to as my income is: 1,240,306,068,720 per turn.

Farming is literally a waste of time. I COULD afford to farm people that have left out 100tril+ naq but it would actually cost me MORE to take it than if I were to just leave my income as is.

Let's see some numbers:

14,294,000 miners
15,000 income techs
1,240,306,068,720 income per turn
59,534,691,298,560 income per day

1,700 defense techs
2,000,000 defense units
18,002,200,000,000 defense (2,200,000,000 of which is from my MS)

Now.. assuming it was free for me to reset my techs and get 20k MS techs.

14,294,000 miners get untrained and made into 285,880 MS
2,000,000 defense units get untrained and made into 40,000 MS
TOTAL MS = 325,880
All my techs removed from income/att/def/cov/AC and put into 20k MS

Currently with 2k MS and 1k MS techs I have:

2,000 with Total Capacity: 2,200,000
Carrying: 200,000 units. Naq Capacity: 2,000,000,000 (would be 2,200,000,000 if i had no att units)

In this hypothetical situation, my MS becomes: (assume the 200k att units are removed)

327,880 with Total Capacity: 360,668,000
Carrying: 0 units. Naq Capacity: 360,668,000,000

that is units added... now make techs 20k instead of 1k:

327,880 with Total Capacity: 6,590,388,000
Carrying: 0 units. Naq Capacity: 6,590,388,000,000

_________

New stats:

Income per day/turn: 0
Strike: 8,237,985,000,000
Defense: 6,590,388,000,000

Able to take 6,590,388,000,000 per 15 attacks. Get 12.8 attacks per day.
Maximum daily intake = (6,590,388,000,000 x 12.8 ) = 84,356,966,400,000

__________

Hmm I am not sure if I just proved or disproved my point. #-o
Slim87R
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Re: Farming Discussion

Freestyle304 wrote:You would be able to make more farming that way, IF you didn't suffer losses at the current rates, and IF you could find targets that big, and IF you could beat their defense at no cost.

BUT 100k UP would only cover a loss of 156 MS per hit for 12.8 hits per day - far far smaller than you would see with that big a fleet (you wouldn't have turns to raid because you are using them for naq farming)
AND if farming started happening at that level, people wouldn't leave out that much
AND it is easy to make a defense to beat even what you calculated for your 327,880 MS fleet.

SO, nope. Farming sucks. You proved your point. =D>


[spoiler]
HippyFool wrote:I actually really like the idea of making the amount you farm 10x more, and then reducing what you can receive to 10x that. As you said, you can then farm 10x more but receive the same.

I also REALLY like the idea of increasing the amount of att/def that MS adds. Right now it is pitiful.

____________

Cwalen wrote:
Perhaps my MS is allready what Slim considers bloated.

I do not seem to have any problem at all in finding viable farming targets (50M+)
Most of them seem to me to be 0 def.

An inactive high income account will naturally be beaten down to 0 def, and we are not short on them.



Let us consider farming vs income.

Cwalen... thinking that a 50m+ target is viable is all well and good at low ascension lvls, but completely useless at lvl 25. Why you may ask? I have only 1k MS and haven't farmed for a long time because I do not need to as my income is: 1,240,306,068,720 per turn.

Farming is literally a waste of time. I COULD afford to farm people that have left out 100tril+ naq but it would actually cost me MORE to take it than if I were to just leave my income as is.

Let's see some numbers:

14,294,000 miners
15,000 income techs
1,240,306,068,720 income per turn
59,534,691,298,560 income per day

1,700 defense techs
2,000,000 defense units
18,002,200,000,000 defense (2,200,000,000 of which is from my MS)

Now.. assuming it was free for me to reset my techs and get 20k MS techs.

14,294,000 miners get untrained and made into 285,880 MS
2,000,000 defense units get untrained and made into 40,000 MS
TOTAL MS = 325,880
All my techs removed from income/att/def/cov/AC and put into 20k MS

Currently with 2k MS and 1k MS techs I have:

2,000 with Total Capacity: 2,200,000
Carrying: 200,000 units. Naq Capacity: 2,000,000,000 (would be 2,200,000,000 if i had no att units)

In this hypothetical situation, my MS becomes: (assume the 200k att units are removed)

327,880 with Total Capacity: 360,668,000
Carrying: 0 units. Naq Capacity: 360,668,000,000

that is units added... now make techs 20k instead of 1k:

327,880 with Total Capacity: 6,590,388,000
Carrying: 0 units. Naq Capacity: 6,590,388,000,000

_________

New stats:

Income per day/turn: 0
Strike: 8,237,985,000,000
Defense: 6,590,388,000,000

Able to take 6,590,388,000,000 per 15 attacks. Get 12.8 attacks per day.
Maximum daily intake = (6,590,388,000,000 x 12.8 ) = 84,356,966,400,000

__________

Hmm I am not sure if I just proved or disproved my point. #-o
[/spoiler]


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Slim87R
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Re: Farming Discussion

I would like to point out another reason farming should be increased in strength:

XdJoker 884 15,486,415 ALTERANS 28,762,968,344,400 Naquadah

He has that much naq sitting out in the open with 0 DEF and 0 MS. With the income he has this mean no one has attacked him for a long while. I take it most have ran out of turns lol. I would not be surprised if he ends up with hundreds of trillions out because no one can take it with the piddly amount MS can hold.
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Re: Farming Discussion

Slim87R wrote:I would like to point out another reason farming should be increased in strength:

XdJoker 884 15,486,415 ALTERANS 28,762,968,344,400 Naquadah

He has that much naq sitting out in the open with 0 DEF and 0 MS. With the income he has this mean no one has attacked him for a long while. I take it most have ran out of turns lol. I would not be surprised if he ends up with hundreds of trillions out because no one can take it with the piddly amount MS can hold.


I've been using every last turn I have on him, and I can't keep up with his income. I have 4k MS techs and 25000 MS. (assumably near to the highest capacity in the game, if not, the highest)

I can take 102,500,000,000 per hit, but I can't keep up with his income :(
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Slim87R
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Re: Farming Discussion

Z E R O wrote:
Slim87R wrote:I would like to point out another reason farming should be increased in strength:

XdJoker 884 15,486,415 ALTERANS 28,762,968,344,400 Naquadah

He has that much naq sitting out in the open with 0 DEF and 0 MS. With the income he has this mean no one has attacked him for a long while. I take it most have ran out of turns lol. I would not be surprised if he ends up with hundreds of trillions out because no one can take it with the piddly amount MS can hold.


I've been using every last turn I have on him, and I can't keep up with his income. I have 4k MS techs and 25000 MS. (assumably near to the highest capacity in the game, if not, the highest)

I can take 102,500,000,000 per hit, but I can't keep up with his income :(


At least you wont suffer MS losses due to the fact he has no MS himself.
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Z E R O
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Re: Farming Discussion

Slim87R wrote:
Z E R O wrote:
Slim87R wrote:I would like to point out another reason farming should be increased in strength:

XdJoker 884 15,486,415 ALTERANS 28,762,968,344,400 Naquadah

He has that much naq sitting out in the open with 0 DEF and 0 MS. With the income he has this mean no one has attacked him for a long while. I take it most have ran out of turns lol. I would not be surprised if he ends up with hundreds of trillions out because no one can take it with the piddly amount MS can hold.


I've been using every last turn I have on him, and I can't keep up with his income. I have 4k MS techs and 25000 MS. (assumably near to the highest capacity in the game, if not, the highest)

I can take 102,500,000,000 per hit, but I can't keep up with his income :(


At least you wont suffer MS losses due to the fact he has no MS himself.


Yeah, it's **Filtered** awesome.
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Slim87R
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Re: Farming Discussion

I am starting to build up my MS count, but I only have 1k MS tech, so once I have a giant fleet, I know I wont be of any help knocking down that giant naq holding of his. I am pretty sure the entire server could farm him and it would still just break even with his income. He has an UP of over 100k, so his income will just grow until he gets hit by the plague. Hopefully he gets farmed enough to lower his untrained count so he doesn't start losing miners.
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