bugs - era 30

[alucard110]

Is this actually confirmed? (I havn't tested it yet)

So if I have 2 def weps and 1 defender on max amp, and then train a 2nd defender (so my average goes down to 5000) I have 2 defenders on 5000, not 1 on max and 1 on 1?

Yes, but no, but yes but.... no... one of the things i wanted to test. going off your example.

I think if you had 1 defender with 1 weapon @ 9999.99% (Average) and then you bought 1 more weapon and 1 more defender.

you would be left with 1 defender @ 9999.99% and 1 defender @ 1% (it brings the average down but its the total (wielding power) as Abhi was saying a few posts ago...

I had two troops with two weapons @ 9999.99% and bought 1 more troop with a weapon, can't remember if it lowered my percentage to 6666.66% (i think it did) but it was a reflection of my previous attack power (for arguments sake 100) plus the power of one troop with 1% Amped bonus.

I think that we need to concern ourselves with the 150K naq per troop per level (per percent) rather than worrying about the average numbers.

if i know that i had (as above) the 2 troops with 2 weapons @ the full amped (9999.99%) and i buy one more troop i KNOW that i need to spend 150K x 9999.99 to bring that troop to its full "potential" and therefore bring my average to 9999.99% once again.

As always, correct me if i'm wrong...

also something else coming shortly on one of the other concerns.

[HippyFool]

Ok lets test this... I have:

Jaffa Guards
Your standard defensive unit. Average Level: 9,999.99 10

Defense 2,436 billion
________________________

I train 1 more defense unit:
1 Jaffa Guards trained for 6,000 Naquadah - Unit level went from 9,999.99 to 9,090.99

Defense is still 2,436 billion, which means that the unit added only an insignificant amount. ( I am guessing I now have 10 at max and 1 at 1)... 9999.99 divided by 11 is 9,090.99

Should cost me 1,500,000,000 to get back to 9,999.99

I will spend 1,400,000,000 to check.

Jaffa Guards upgraded by 848.48 levels at a cost of 1,400,000,000 Naquadah (def now 2,663 billion )

So now: Average Level: 9,939.47 .... spend 100m more

And there we have it:

Jaffa Guards
Your standard defensive unit. Average Level: 9,999.99 11 (after spending 1.5b)

Defense 2,680 billion which is 10% higher than before as it should be.

Everything works just perfect

[alucard110]

Ok lets test this... I have:

Jaffa Guards
Your standard defensive unit. Average Level: 9,999.99 10

Defense 2,436 billion
________________________

I train 1 more defense unit:
1 Jaffa Guards trained for 6,000 Naquadah - Unit level went from 9,999.99 to 9,090.99

Defense is still 2,436 billion, which means that the unit added only an insignificant amount. ( I am guessing I now have 10 at max and 1 at 1)... 9999.99 divided by 11 is 9,090.99

Should cost me 1,500,000,000 to get back to 9,999.99

I will spend 1,400,000,000 to check.

Jaffa Guards upgraded by 848.48 levels at a cost of 1,400,000,000 Naquadah (def now 2,663 billion )

So now: Average Level: 9,939.47 .... spend 100m more

And there we have it:

Jaffa Guards
Your standard defensive unit. Average Level: 9,999.99 11 (after spending 1.5b)

Defense 2,680 billion which is 10% higher than before as it should be.

Everything works just perfect

Scratch one mystery of the universe.

Theorized, Tested and Confirmed!! w00t

Now, since we're on a roll..

Second issue: What troop dies first (your weakest or possibly one of your strongest)

to Quote the game updates:

Death rates in battle, etc are also affected by unit level. In short - more powerful units are better...much better.
Enjoy!

In short, one can assume, building on that fact that we've confirmed that max'd Amp'd troops retain their max'd status, that your weakest troops (ie if you don't have an average of 9999.99% and you've recently bought a new/or new troops and have yet to "max" them) that they will be the first to die.

Only speculation on the ratio's that admin has used as far as death percentages go, but i would guess that, as always there is an extremely low death rate when forces with low amounts of troops clash (i.e, the fact that no matter how hard you try you can't kill that last single pesky troop when you're trying to mass/sab someone)

So we Know:

The total cost to being 1 troop to the max level of Amperage is 1.5Bil Naq. (9999.99%)

The non maxed troops are going to die first (at what % we don't 'exactly' know... but we can speculate)

The cost to max amp a troop, 1.5bil naq, is *very shortly* going to become insignificant and therefore will just be a mere inconvenience to re-AMP to fill your stats to where they were before you lost any troops.

This era is going to quickly become like all its predecessors, but with what will become the "inexpensive hassle" of needing to re-AMP.

[HippyFool]

So we Know:

The total cost to being 1 troop to the max level of Amperage is 1.5Bil Naq. (9999.99%)

The non maxed troops are going to die first (at what % we don't 'exactly' know... but we can speculate)

The cost to max amp a troop, 1.5bil naq, is *very shortly* going to become insignificant and therefore will just be a mere inconvenience to re-AMP to fill your stats to where they were before you lost any troops.

This era is going to quickly become like all its predecessors, but with what will become the "inexpensive hassle" of needing to re-AMP.

I disagree. You are forgetting miner amp lvl which will be the most important thing this wave.

Also, if this wave is like most before it, units will become killable once you have 14 or more (e.g. you can never have less than 13 defenders or attackers). So in the next day or 2 we should start seeing some attackers and defenders dyeing

[Abhi]

Is this actually confirmed? (I havn't tested it yet)

So if I have 2 def weps and 1 defender on max amp, and then train a 2nd defender (so my average goes down to 5000) I have 2 defenders on 5000, not 1 on max and 1 on 1?

Its easier to do these tests with spies (and less costly too) and thats what it suggests, yes.

They way you tell that your defenders are both at 5000 is because when one dies, the amp does not go from 5000 to max or min, but stays there. And I think this makes sense too. If you continue to upgrade, you see that now it costs 300,000 to upgrade TWO defenders and they are BOTH upgraded by whatever amount of naq you put in.

So in conclusion, I stand by my earlier statement.

EDIT: Though I did not see your later posts, I'll still stand by my statements. To test if the troop that dies is the weakest, strongest or the average, these are the tests I ran:

Start with:
Infiltration Units Average Level: 446.50 94
Covert 21,208,797

Train 6 spies:
Infiltration Units Average Level: 419.77 100
Covert 20,580,976

Spend 85mil to upgrade spies a bit (unnecessary step for this step but oh well):
Infiltration Units Average Level: 425.44 100
Covert 20,858,972

Spy Rank 1 guy and lose 20 spies:
Infiltration Units Average Level: 425.44 80
Covert 18,608,62


Bam, second mystery solved!

[alucard110]

So we Know:

The total cost to being 1 troop to the max level of Amperage is 1.5Bil Naq. (9999.99%)

The non maxed troops are going to die first (at what % we don't 'exactly' know... but we can speculate)

The cost to max amp a troop, 1.5bil naq, is *very shortly* going to become insignificant and therefore will just be a mere inconvenience to re-AMP to fill your stats to where they were before you lost any troops.

This era is going to quickly become like all its predecessors, but with what will become the "inexpensive hassle" of needing to re-AMP.

I disagree. You are forgetting miner amp lvl which will be the most important thing this wave.

Also, if this wave is like most before it, units will become killable once you have 14 or more (e.g. you can never have less than 13 defenders or attackers). So in the next day or 2 we should start seeing some attackers and defenders dyeing

Yes, my "will become like all past waves" comments was a little bit vague. Although, not entirely.

in the next week or two buying a fully amped troop with one of the best weapons is going to become affordable, in the next two months (depending on how much ppl increase their UP) *i'd like to say maxing*, upgrading your miners will become heaps more affordable.

If someone was to choose to diligently amp their miners (and not train more) the cost vs effectiveness ratio will decrease significantly over time.

I personally think i will have a lot of work to do to close my gap given that i am making 298 troops per turn (not including daily bonus's) and am currently only making enough NAQ per day to max AMP 4.333333 of my miners on income alone... (this wouldn't have been so bad if i didn't train so many of the GD fkrs)

I guess i'm going to be watching my ability to max amp miners/turn ratio increase and will be working on doing so ASAP

currently:
income/cost to max amp
135mil/1.5bil
=0.09 max'd troops per turn this could take awhile....

Also....

Hypothetical Question,

I've got 30k miners.

I spend 1.5bil NAQ on my miners AMP %

Does it:
A) give me 1 x 9999.99% miner and 29999 x 1% miners

or

B) Give me 30000 x 0.00002% miners (is this math right??)

You get the picture...?

I think it max'z one troop first.... but i haven't tested when large quantities of troops are trained in the particular field prior to "AMPING"

[HippyFool]

I reeeaaalllyyyy don't think anyone is going to be able to max out miner ampage. (although I am going to have a fair crack at it)

Income is proportional to miners and miners are proportional to UP and farms are proportional to top UP so really costs are going to stay proportionally the same!

Also, I think Abhi is right, you when you amp up it amps them all equally, rather than 1 to max first and then the rest after. Therefore statement B is correct!

[alucard110]

I reeeaaalllyyyy don't think anyone is going to be able to max out miner ampage. (although I am going to have a fair crack at it)

Income is proportional to miners and miners are proportional to UP and farms are proportional to top UP so really costs are going to stay proportionally the same!

Also, I think Abhi is right, you when you amp up it amps them all equally, rather than 1 to max first and then the rest after. Therefore statement B is correct!

I too would like to see how close i can get to max amping miners... but i equally share your doubt.

I don't think that test that Abhi ran is definitive, because it wasn't done with "maxed" out units...

Start with:
Infiltration Units Average Level: 446.50 94
Covert 21,208,797

Train 6 spies:
Infiltration Units Average Level: 419.77 100
Covert 20,580,976

Thats fine, you're adding 6.3% more troops (troops all possessing 1% levels) and it lowers the average by 6.3%

Infiltration Units Average Level: 425.44 100
Covert 20,858,972

Spy Rank 1 guy and lose 20 spies:
Infiltration Units Average Level: 425.44 80
Covert 18,608,62

This... i think your increasing of your level is helpful in someways but not in others...

you increased your AMP LEVEL by 5.67% and it increased your POWER LEVEL by 277,996 (1.35%)

then you lost 20 of your 100 troops (20%) and lost 10% of your power.....

Now... i had somewhere i was going with this... i had an answer that made sense... but i'm about to pull my hair out cause i got a phone call and now that i come back to look at it its all just numbers and letters.....

Please can someone prove in a formula that the weak troops die first... and what it means for your other troops... back 2morro, work in 5hrs...

[Affirmation]

Is this actually confirmed? (I havn't tested it yet)

So if I have 2 def weps and 1 defender on max amp, and then train a 2nd defender (so my average goes down to 5000) I have 2 defenders on 5000, not 1 on max and 1 on 1?

Your latter statement is correct Hipp, any further NAQ you spend on AMPing Def Troops is ONLY applied to the 1 new Troop. As you AMP that new Troop, your Defense will rise in Power and your Average AMP level reported on the Defense Troops will also rise appropriately. In fact, you should be able to throw exactly 9999 times 150,000 NAQ (1,499,850,000 NAQ Total) on one Upgrade to the Defense troops, and see your Defense Troops reported Average Total AMP go from 5000 to 9999 in ONE UPGRADE!

Unless the coding is Frakked (always a possibility) AMP Average Levels reported are only a guide to know what the AMPing levels of the troops are, not some multiplier used to calculate Power levels. I have 5 Defenders, now all AMPed to 9999. At first I had two, AMPed them to about 1000ish. Then I trained 3 more, and my AVERAGE AMPed level went to 400.
(Math 1000 + 1000 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 2003 / 5 = 400.6

AT NO TIME DURING THIS DID MY DEFENSE POWER LEVEL GO DOWN!!!!!!

In fact, when I later added/armed 3 more stronger mid-tiered Weapons to the 3 new Troops, my defense power went up appropriately for having 2 Defense Troops AMPed to 1000 each, plus 3 new weenie Defense troops added a Level 1. BUT, as we have said, I Still got the Defense power level of 5 Troops to 5 Weapons.

Now, I did not look at what my Defense Rank did, because I don't give a Gnat's balls what the Defense rank is as long as my Defense Fights/Defends at an Appropriate Defense level for my Weapons and my Troops.

Then I started adding AMPing to the Defense Troops, and my Defense Power Levels shot up appropriately swiftly according to how much NAQ I stuck on AMPing Defense!

OK, yes, maybe my Defense rank went down, or up, or wherever, but at no time did it move more than plus/minus a few ranks either way until it shot up about 20 Rankings after I spent about 750 Million NAQ AMPing up my 3 new Defense troops. Now, was that an exact appropriate amount of rankings?? I have no idea, but, I have seen nothing to tell me that spending my NAQ has not gained me an appropriate return in Defense. Now, I have 5 Defense Troops MAXed out AMPed at 9999. (After a two day spending of about One Mothership's worth of NAQ or 4-5 Billion NAQ...)

I just Armed those 5 Super-AMPed 9999 Def troops with 5 Top tier weapons, Added some Defense Techs, and my Defense QUADRUPLED in size after only spending about 1 Bill more NAQ. Because I have a larger pool of Defense Troops MAXed out at 9999 AMPing Levels, any NAQ I spend on Weapons and Techs is now Proportionally amplified even more, (In a past Era, there was NO WAY that spending 1 Bill NAQ would Quadruple my Defense). Due to having 5 Troops AMPed to the max 999, I am getting 5 times more BANG for the NAQ buck than someone harboring only 1 Super Maxed out 9999 Troop when I make Defense Tech Upgrades!

Guess what? If I now train One more Defense Troop, my AVERAGE AMP level is going to go down!
(i.e. Math will be 9999 + 9999 + 9999 + 9999 + 9999 + 1 = 49996 / 6 = 8332.6)
But, my Defense will still Defend with a higher level than someone Throwing One Super AMPed 9999 Attack Troop at it! HAHA (Just ask the couple of numb-nutz who banged at my Defense with only ONE troop!) I defended even though at the time I only had mid range Tier Weapons on 5 Troops AMPed to about 9300ish Average. MY FIVE TROOPS AT LESS THAN 9999 Average STILL Fought better than One Attack troop AMPed at 9999!!

As you can all hopefully see, the Higher you AMP your troops and the more Troops you have in your 'Troop Pool', the less the next New Troop decreases the overall AMP average! (I think I explained this Averaging math in another posting - the higher the overall pool of items, the less the next newer item affects the total average!!)

Everyone freaking out and peeing themselves when they see the AMP average change so drastically over one or two troops, just Chillax, the more Troops you work with the less a new Troop degrades your overall average! If you only have 1 Troop, the next Troop is GOING TO HALF YOUR AVERAGE! You should easily be able to see this in action with your Miners since the pool is so large, training a few hundred new Miners does not hardly 'budge' your Average AMP Level at all now. But, if you train a couple hundred new Miners, they STILL add positive NAQ and Income! If you AMP them with Upgrades, because the pool is so large, you will not change the average Level reported, BUT, YOU DO INCREASE YOUR INCOME!! Same with Attack/Defense/Covert/AC troops.

Here is the thing: Total level AMP average is JUST A FIGURE SO YOU CAN SEE WHERE YOUR TROOPS AMPing LEVELS STAND CURRENTLY AND TO KNOW WHEN YOUR TROOPS ARE MAXED OUT at 9999!!

As some have found out, the game will still let you throw/pizz away NAQ thrying to AMP maxed out troops! This reported Total average AMP Level is YOUR CLUE to stop AMPing Troops at 9999 Level!!!!
Any NAQ you spend on a MAXed out 9999 Troop level is LOST, LOST, WASTED, GONE, KAPUT, DUMPED INTO THE COSMIC QUANTUM ABYSS...

So, Total Reported AMP Average has nothing to do with actual power levels, nothing to do with calculating Rank, just gives you a Mathematical GAUGE of how High the overall AMPing Levels are on your Troops, and gives you a point you can Estimate how much more to spend to MAX the Troops out to 9999.

Gosh, I hope this is starting to sink in some...
(Affy sighs and goes back to AMPing the Dog-Ballz out of his Multiple Troops....)

'Bad Affy' sez, Maybe you should try AMPing up your Forum posts??

[Abhi]

Affy, your posts are too long.

Anyways, there are some mistakes in your assumptions. First of all, when you train new def troops, the def power DOES go down. But in order to see the change, you need to hit repair so that the values will update. Then when you AMP up to previous level and buy them weps, the power will go back up.

Also, the average thing is not just a help, it is actually the right number. When you start with 1 AMPed troop, and train a 2nd, you do NOT end with 1 troop with 9999.9 and 1 troop with 1 level. Because as I have shown with spies, when they die, the AMP does NOT change (either up or down, so the 'weaker' or 'stronger' spies didn't die. Everyone was the same level)

I am pasting it again here, though, just for you

Infiltration Units Average Level: 425.44 100
Covert 20,858,972

Spy Rank 1 guy and lose 20 spies:
Infiltration Units Average Level: 425.44 80
Covert 18,608,62

[Quina Quen]

Doesn't seem quite right.

[Abhi]

Doesn't seem quite right.

Does to me now. Just try it yourself.

[Quina Quen]

I'd rather not lose units needlessly. I'll take your word for it.

[Affirmation]

I am enjoying all the work on this.

Here is what I see to be the case, which is the only way things can work out according to what happens with Training and Losing Troops:

1. When you AMP upgrade Troops, the Levels are applied equally across all Troops, boosting each Troop by one Level until Troops that are Maxed out at 9999.99 get no more AMPing, and any remaining NAQ still gets applied equally to the remaining Non-Maxed Troops.
(The only problem with this issue, is that if you add AMPing Upgrades when all Troops are Maxed out at 9999.99, you just lose NAQ to the void due to AMPing stupidity!)
- This means Option B Elliot!! HAHA

2. When you AMP upgrade troops, the Figure reported as the 'Average Level' is a reported figure only of the Average of all Troop levels divided by the Total number of Troops. It is a Gauge Level only, for the purposes of being able to see the "Fuel Level" of your Troops AMPing levels for each type of troop. It cannot be used in the actual Power Level calculations, which is instead derived from the traditional Power level calculations, with the Individual AMP Levels of each singular troop valued into the Total Power calculation. This is the only way it can work, else we would see massive Power level drops when adding new 1% Level basic troops.
(I am NOT saying that the Power Level Calculations 'New Coding' that takes into account the AMP levels of the individual Troops is completely correct!!)

3. When you Train new Troops, especially those 'Armed' on Weapons, the most powerful AMPed Troops Arm the Weapons FIRST, but also tend to DIE FIRST!! This is the only way this can work with both ABHI's reported observations, and mine, this is why Training new Troops only affects the Reported AMP Average more severely, whilst still giving the appropriate small Boost to Covert, and Arming a Weapon in ATT/DEF Power levels.
But, when one is lost, you tend to get a more SEVERE loss of Power, AND also a significant loss of the reported Average AMP level.
(BUT, the average AMP level reported after a Troop dies does NOT seem to immediately reflect this loss?? I call this one of our normal and usual Quantum reporting issues, some we can resolve with Repairs/Changing Realm Levels, etc In this case, due to so many having SO FEW numbers of Troops and the fact that the Quantum server 'PROTECTS' us from loss below that magical 13-15ish bottom figure or so, the AMP average level reported after Troops loss seems buggy, inaccurate, or not prone to proper updating!)

4. I would say that in my observations, all the Purchasing/Training of new Troops and the Reported Power Levels obtained either immediately, by hook/crook (i.e. Updating Levels, Repair, etc) are accurate. This is NOT the case for what happens when you LOSE Troops.
- The only way that this can exist is that:
A. Coding and calculations from Dying Troops is flawed/buggy.
B. Troops die in a RANDOM fashion, with primary but not absolutely, larger AMPed troops dying first, then random other AMPed level troops dying as well.

5. All of these can be skewed, or strange Observations made while we dabble around with significantly SMALL NUMBERS OF TROOPS!!
- To know for sure, we would need to all be working from the same Tech Levels, Covert/AC Levels, Weapon Tiers Armed on Troops, and near common AMPing levels. of course, this will be impossible.

For example, ABHI may be observing his Covert/AC issues with 100 troops or less and Levels 14/14 C/AC of various AMPing and 125 Covert Techs.

I may be observing mine with C/AC of 13/11 with my 250 Covert Troops of various AMPing and 250 Covert Techs.

Not EVEN mentioning Race bonuses, these numbers may all be significantly different enough with the AMPing issue added in that we may be talking Apples to Oranges?? I dunno...

Like Hippy, sometimes it can be analyzed with direct math, or other Eras, it may only be observable in the Trending.

I will say this, I think we have done enough work to see that the 'Trends' and significant Math of this Era is valid enough and JUST varied enough with the new Era feature to make for an interesting and chaotic Era.

At this point, I think the biggest Trend is going to be the MASSIVE levels of NAQ that will be earning when, and only when, we can get everyone to 'Buy Off' on the extreme importance of UP along with the AMPing!! (errrrr if you don't want to believe Affy cause I type super long posts, cause I am a sad bored old man who gets home from long azz work days and sometimes 10 hour round trip drives and choose to 'come down' off caffeine highs by boinking around in Quantum and on the Forums, just go look at Hippy's turn Income change.... He gets it! HAHAHA)

He who AMPs the most, and the most wisely, will rule this Era?

'Bad Affy' sez... He who can read ALL of your Posts, without wanting to Kill Themselves will rule in Quantum verbosity hell.

[HippyFool]

Affy, I spent 10 hours doing a uni assignment yesterday and my head hurt less than after reading your two above posts.

However, I have to now agree with Abhi, his math is correct. Mine was wrong due to one silly little thing: I bought the extra weps BEFORE testing so it all looked as if the 11th (go back and read my calc post) didn't add anything which would mean that I had 10 units on max amp and 1 on 1 amp.

HOWEVER, if I did not have that 11th wep bought already my defense would have dropped as I would have had 11 units on 9090.9 but only 10 of them with weps (which is weaker than 10 at 9999.99 power with 10 weps). Having that extra wep meant that I had 11 units on 9090.9, but they all had weps and 11*9090.99 = 9999.99, so it was the same power as 10 at 9999.99.

This means that the AVERAGE is the power of ALL of the units. However much naq you have spent will be equally divided among all the units.

10 units at 9999.99 = 1,499,998,500 naq spent per unit
11 units at 9090.9 = 1,499,998,500 naq spent per unit

As long as they are all manned, they will also have the same power as eachother. Also, if one of the 11 dies, you will then have 10 at 9090.9 average. Another dies, the average will stay the same etc etc etc