The sniper problem

[nimious]

Idea is interesting, but has a flaw or two. For one, massing someone would become much easier: first you mass his def, then after turn change eficiency of his spies goes down, and than you sab him with minimal loses.
I propose a similar, but different solution. One that doesn't target ranks for balance, but instead goes for techs. Those multies (unlike active players) usually have only one stat builded up. So we can prevent that by increasing the cost of a tech, if it differs from average lvl of players techs. If that increase is high enough, we prevent building only one tech, but still allow different tactics (for one, not buying huge strike early in the era - you would still have techs, but not weapons, as you would have to have in Neims idea). And if someone still wanted to build only one stat, they could still have. But building that stat would take almost as many hours as building all of them.

[Juliette]

Neim.. no. Your notion that abuse warrants micromanagement is wrong. *wags finger*
It is similar to the reasoning that because the occasional minor terrorist threat is cancelled through gross breach of privacy, such practice is permissible.

You are dictating how people should play, nonsensically so. Hell, if I want to make an account just to kill stuff, I can, and I should be allowed to. Griefing is just another way to play, and while it would make little sense to people who play for rank, it can be hilarious to watch people blow up over your actions.

[kynell]

snipers on main have always been a pain in the butt but its there way to play so let them , however a easy solution to the problem is change it so only players who are page 1 stats (or ranked 1-20) can do any hits on that rank if u can do that it will allow any1 of the active players to mass or snipe any of the other active players but wont allow people to build just 1 stat and mass the top rank because there rank wont be high enough to hit the top players with just 1 stat built

[Neimenljivi]

Nimious - you're right.. I guess it would have to be used for actions you do against others, not others against you. So efficiency wouldn't decrease when you defend, only when you strike?

Yes Juliette, yet you're failing to acknowledge that it shouldn't be as easy as it is. I never said people shouldn't destroy and go to wars, heck I'm all for that! I'm saying an idle account or a new account shouldn't be able to destroy top accounts after 2hs of farming/raiding.
Basically, analogy with main, after 1h of farming you'd get ~20T MS, or more, or 42 covert/ac or top strike or top def and army size of 800 million without really farming like a nut, just farming the 5k ATs you had that were generated while you were idle. So no, it wouldn't be dictating how people should play, it'd be like "you can do that, but if you want to mass you've got to put some work in it".
Or should idle players in main be able to catch up top accounts in 1 stat with 5k ATs? They don't have that ability, they have to work to be able to destroy a top account.
Why should Q be any different to that? If it takes work to build something, it should take work to destroy it. How is that dictating how people play?
If you go down that road what's dictating and what's not, heck you can throw all the rules out of the box then because they dictate what you may and may not do.

This is about solving a problem that exists in the game and one of which all active Q players are well aware of. It's also a big problem because the majority of such accounts are multies, which does break official game rules as well. This is directed at such accounts. Why are there so many of them? Simply because it's too easy to build 1 stat high enough to take on the top accounts.

Kynell - That would be a good idea if Q had enough users that it'd be hard to get into top 20. Right now there are about 50 accounts which have been logged in, about 10 of these logged in very few times. There are about 20 really active accounts. Getting in top 20 is not a big deal really, you don't need high stats. Honestly one #1 stat, minor other stats (like stats you can build with 100 or 200 ATs) and you get in top 20.
That's why the fact that about 15 accounts have been affected by such multi-snipers weighs even more.

Keep the ball running with ideas

~Jack

[Melisandre]

I see your point, but snipering itself does not break any rules, so it is absolutely out of the question to disallow it.
Instead of trying to remove a valid, albeit hostile playing style, focus on the *real* problem, the multies, not their tactics, but their technical operation, from registration to maintenance.

In main, multies make use of the income they can generate from their initial registration. Does that mean we should remove the initial stats?
In life, bank robbers make use of cars, does that make all cars criminal items, regardless of their drivers? It does not.

Instead of trying to make it harder to buy and drive a car, how about you focus on making it considerably harder to rob the bank in the first place.



I do not like people stealing my naq. Multies also steal naq. Hey, here's a thought, let's petition Jason to remove naq stealing, because multies do it.

And people wonder how the NSA could possibly justify breaking your privacy.. Exactly the same argument: "We don't like privacy. Terrorists have privacy. Let's take all your privacy, after all, terrorists use privacy."

[kynell]

Neimenljivi an easier solution to my first solution change the rank u can mass from rank 20 to only people in top 5 or top 10 can mass the others

[Sol]

Neimenljivi an easier solution to my first solution change the rank u can mass from rank 20 to only people in top 5 or top 10 can mass the others

Interesting concept...so something like the 1/5th 5x rule, except based on ranks. I suppose it seems somewhat fair, sort of the same reasoning as the descension bar, you can't attack someone else if your toc is too small compared to them, because you're running into a slaughter house and your instincts turn you away at the last minute.

[nOsTyLe]

also, they should put in those script prevention measures that they put in main to make it harder for auto farmers. not saying people do, but i play over nights and have noticed a lot more active farmers in the middle of the night that wasn't happening before a week ago. i sure hope people still don't horribly alter their sleep schedules to play games like this.

[JasonJay]

Please don't put those images in Q, they hurt my eyes. The ten hits per 30 seconds is already a deterant

[Juliette]

also, they should put in those script prevention measures that they put in main to make it harder for auto farmers. not saying people do, but i play over nights and have noticed a lot more active farmers in the middle of the night that wasn't happening before a week ago. i sure hope people still don't horribly alter their sleep schedules to play games like this.

Indeed. Seems like a proper thing to do.

[Neimenljivi]

Melisandre, multying used to be a valid, albeit low playing style as well in beginning. It was banned. Same with feeding. The snipering that's been happening now is the same as feeding, just that instead of giving resources to certain players, it deprives them from certain players.
As for the multies, what kind of preventive measures do you suggest? I might be wrong here, but won't taking away the reason for people to have multies work the best?

Kynell - hmm I like it. Could be two options, either no attacks/spies/sabs at all, like in ascension with the 5x rule, or kinda like X amount of times they can be attacked within y hours, so as to not give a free "PPT", kinda, to top 10?

nOsTyLe - like JasonJay said - there is already a limiter of 10 hits per 30 seconds which is already something most of us fast farmers would like to see gone. To be honest I haven't seen auto farming in Q in all my years here.
What changed between this and the last week is existance of extra sniping multies which, looks like it, farm in the middle of night for those of us that are from Europe. They empty the farming field a lot

~Jack

[Juliette]

Melisandre, multying used to be a valid, albeit low playing style as well in beginning. It was banned. Same with feeding. The snipering that's been happening now is the same as feeding, just that instead of giving resources to certain players, it deprives them from certain players.

You do realise that 'depriving players of resources' is an exceedingly fun playing style, right? I mean, sure, you frustrate other, but hell, you frustrate others! It is just as fun as massing people and hearing their grating voices through their messages of whine to you. Leading to like threads like this, where people who have something to lose complain about losing things to people who play a completely different style from their own. This thread is reminiscent of chess players years ago, complaining about people who played for remise instead of victory. They could not be beaten. And if you made a mistake, you lost. The whining was massive. In the end, playing for remise is still perfectly valid, and although it might upset some players, most just learn to deal with it.

As for the multies, what kind of preventive measures do you suggest? I might be wrong here, but won't taking away the reason for people to have multies work the best?

Again, you seem to think that ONLY multies sniper. Even if that were the case (and if you can prove that is the case, that is the only valid reason to even consider removing an entire playing style), which it is not, what would you do next? Remove attacking altogether? Because OMG OMG OMG, you lose stuff to players who do not actually stand to gain from your loss (except in that it brings them endless glee). Removing the attacking loss/gain dynamic is like asking for a Facebook point-'n-click game.

Kynell - hmm I like it. Could be two options, either no attacks/spies/sabs at all, like in ascension with the 5x rule, or kinda like X amount of times they can be attacked within y hours, so as to not give a free "PPT", kinda, to top 10?

It is a ridiculous idea, and does not have a shred of merit to it. Quantum's player base is not sufficient to allow yet more restrictions in attacking to and from. For that purpose, you have Polarity. You consistently try to remove an element of the game that you do not like, justifying that removal by stating that 'Multies do it' (which we have already shown to be an asinine line of reasoning, re. cars, criminals and highways). You should go work for the NSA. It seems taking freedom away is something you like to do, for no good reason. I have seen plenty of Quantum multies building stats like there was no tomorrow (which in Quantum, there often isn't). Do you also suggest to remove statbuilding as a playing style? Now that would be consistency I would applaud, before shooting that idea down as well, for the same reasons as why this one is nonsensical and counterproductive.

nOsTyLe - like JasonJay said - there is already a limiter of 10 hits per 30 seconds which is already something most of us fast farmers would like to see gone. To be honest I haven't seen auto farming in Q in all my years here.
What changed between this and the last week is existance of extra sniping multies which, looks like it, farm in the middle of night for those of us that are from Europe. They empty the farming field a lot

Absolutely ridiculous. I myself have written a perfectly fine automated farming, repair and investment script in the earlier years of Quantum. It still works like a charm (tested it for the sake of testing). That numbers->pictures bit definitely needs to be in Quantum, as well as in NG (we will be adding it soon-ish).
As for removing 10 hits per 30 seconds.. lol. Again. Quantum's player base is too small to allow a few hardcore farmers to snatch up all the Naq in the game a few times a day. Instead, it is open to everyone. And if you can manage to farm all night, and happen to live when Eurofolk sleep, well good for you. Guess what, those farms aren't there to be FULL whenever you want to go look for Naq. They are dynamic.


Instead of trying to fight a playing style out of some twisted sense of 'justice' (because multies must be stopped, and OMG all multies are snipers, and ONLY multies are snipers, it must be done!), you should spend your time thinking of new wave ideas, suggest new features (instead of leaving it all up - very passively - to Forum).. instead, you are suggesting to kick legitimate players out of the door because they do not play the way you want them to play, and because there is a flood of multies who also happen to play the way they play. That has to be the worst (or best) troll of all.
Now, if you had thousands of players, sure, consider it. Why the hell not. The things suggested in this thread have nothing to do with streamlining the game or increasing the fun for everyone, and only function as a way to make a select group of players who play for stats feel better about themselves (because losing less, ergo 'being a better player', lol).

Amusement abounds. Get the hell back to earth and get a bloody sense of reality.


tl;dr: Not every sniper is a multi, ergo, removing snipering is similar killing a kid because they stepped onto the square where the drugdealers usually hang out - ergo the kid must be a drugdealer too. Instead, focus on the drugdealers (multies), not on playing styles. Grasping at straws is not cute.

[nimious]

So you think it's fine that someone, who put an hour into his acc, has the power to completely ruin rank 1 acc?
Also, your analogies are mildly put stupid...

[Juliette]

So you think it's fine that someone, who put an hour into his acc, has the power to completely ruin rank 1 acc?

You are ignoring that the argument presented all across this thread by the ones who want to remove snipering is "multies sniper, so snipering must be made impossible". Not "I can't have fun if someone destroys me", which admittedly is a lot more honest. Not even "multiing must be made impossible", which would be a lot more righteous.

So the argument presented is neither honest nor righteous. Then what is it? Selfishness.
People are 'justifying' their dislike for snipering and their petition for removal of a playing style by saying "it combats multies", which is of course without exception ridiculous, because it would not combat multies, it would force them (and every legitimate player who has fun destroying whatever people took weeks to build up in mere second) to do something else. It does not stop anyone from multiing. So basically, you (thread posters) are saying "I don't mind multiing, as long as they can't hurt me".

Do you think it is fine that people multi? Because if I were you, I would worry more about that than about snipers. Snipering is another matter entirely, and if you lot can't get it through your heads that multiing and snipering are NOT the same thing, then I wonder what other purpose this thread has besides being an outlet to moan and whine.

Would I be frustrated if I lost everything I built? Sure, for a sec. This game is not like some other games out there, where you really lose what you lose. Everything here can be rebuilt simply by farming, no actual effort to it at all. Fun? Yes, fun in that you can pride yourself in being the best at it.. but this is a war game. Losses are a part of it. Without losses (and yes, without 'terrorists' such as snipers) you would become complacent, only farming and investing, nothing else. No dynamic. You need rivals. You need a threat. Snipers provide a threat. Fear them, build against them, make sure that whatever they do, you can rebuild. It's what this game is all about. Build, fight, die, rebuild. And so the cycle continues.
So is it fair that someone can destroy someone after a disproportionate amount of time? Maybe not. Is it something that should be banned? Nah. Go fight multiing instead of a playing style.




In any case, I have made my point, I cede the floor to you rebels. Do with it what you will. Fight the wrong enemy, for all I care. See, the thing is.. it all works out. We have had snipers since day 1. It is not a spectacularly worse problem now. We have had multies since day 1 too, but there is a marked increase in them, warranting action. Not by making it 'safer' for existing accounts, but by making it 'harder' to multi effectively.

(See? No analogies this time.)

Also, your analogies are mildly put stupid...

Of course, you are as entitled to that grand opinion as I am to mine.

[Neimenljivi]

Juliette you only replied to the parts that suit your argument.
Feeding is also an exceedingly fun playing style, is it not? I mean you farm everything that you'd otherwise spend an hour and a few k Ats to farm, in less than 100 ATs then watch how others get frustrated. If not for the extra resources and whatnot, you frustrate others. It's even more fun watching others spend hours and buying USSs to catch up.
It all led to threads like this and was banned. Why? Because it was wrong. It was a playing style, just like multying was in the old days, but one that got prohibited.

Yep compare it to a game of chess. Wait, how about we play chess the way we like it. Lets say peasants can move like queen and lets say the king can use a plane to get to any part of the field whenever it wants. I mean, being told what moves you can and can't do is limiting one's freedom, is it not? So why the hell should there be rules anyway? (PS: The answer lies in rules which limit your freedom ensure that you have a freedom). But yet people seem to deal with the rules and with ensured freedom.

Once again you failed to suggest any preventive measures against multies. You jump to assumptions which aren't based on any facts. I never said only multies sniper. I said majority of snipers that have appeared in recent days are multies. Feeding wasn't a problem before people started getting their "friends" (which in most cases means multies) to farm for them. Once they started doing that, everything went downhill and feeding was banned.
Stop putting words in my mouth about what I'd do next, especially when you couldn't be more far off.

Yes you have polarity. It would work with actual snipers and I know for a fact some people tend to use the shield. Even though it can be removed, but then again the root of this problem aren't the actual snipers, as in real players. It's the multies that do that which are a problem.

So not allowing people to kill other people is taking away freedom from them, right? I'm sure it's so evil and we should all allow killing, raping, etc. After all, they are in their right to do so, aren't they?

Yes you've seen plenty of Q multies that build stats. Sure, they built stats with their main account, massed/sabbed/fed with their other accounts. Therefore multies did build stats.

You seem to have a habit talking about consistency, yet your own arguments are flawed big way. You mention game with rules and scream for freedom. Then there should be no rules. So why do you say we should ensure multies don't exist, after all - we are limiting their freedom with it. It was by the book in beginning, after that it was banned. But I guess this one is OK, same with feeding and everything else that's banned now, except a magnified snipering by mostly multies. That one has the green light to continue and shouldn't be banned.. Right? Consistency..

Yeah and you spent hours writing that script, to save a few hours from farming. Why was it a problem in main? Because you can literally get unlimited amounts of ATs and can, therefore, farm unlimited amounts of naq and have unlimited profit from it. Here? Yes, you get some 90k ATs in 3 months. That's it, no more. Honestly using a script for farming will, due to the game's evolution, actually hurt your chances in long term. You also won't be able to get more resources than other people because resources in Q are limited. That and it's against the rules (which apparently shouldn't exist).

Do you know why was 10 hits limiter added? Which, btw, allows for 11 hits within 30 seconds.
Because there were many more of us quick farmers that were able to hit a lot of players very soon. Snatch all the naq few times a day? You do realize ATs are limited? Besides, what about the freedom to play? For me it was much more fun to attack 60-70 players within 30 seconds than only 11. Oww it limits my freedom. I mustn't allow that
Have I ever said the farms have to be full all the time? Stop putting words in my mouth. And just FYI, I rarely go to bed before 3 AM and usually farm before I go to bed.. If all farms have been depleted I'll just farm the next day. Big deal.

Once again spinning your mouth with false info. I am in quite regular contact with Forum and have given him a lot of suggestions and ideas both for new wave and for new features. And guess what, most of them promote farming and wars between accounts. Why didn't I share that with you? Well wait, am I obliged to do so? Freedom.
I am not suggesting to kick legitimate players out the door. They can, just as easily, destroy if they wish so. The only thing that changes is that they will have to spend some time to destroy something others have used a lot of time to build up.

You also seem to think I am the main target of these multies. Well, guess what? I am not.

Do I not say multying should be made impossible? I even asked how exactly should it be made impossible. I have given a lot of multies to Forum, but due to no conclusive evidence which would suffice for a ban, only the weirdest coincidences which aren't always enough, very few of them were banned.
I can have fun if someone destroys me as I'll destroy them back. If a multi destroys me that has no stats of worth to be destroyed, yeah I'd be annoyed as hell. Same as people were back then when there were so many multies. Same as people were when they didn't want to multi and be fed or harass their friends to feed them.

Juliette you continue to be oblivious to the fact that the occurrence of multies in such a large scale in the past 2 weeks or so happened because they can snipe that easily. Sniping so easily = reason people create multies now that feeding is prohibited. Removing the reason (or changing it into something which isn't as easy and requires time), will thus stop people from creating more multies. I doubt people are gonna spend hours and hours of farming to destroy someone with 10 different accounts. If they do at least they'll spend the same amount of time someone spent to build something, to destroy it. But most of them won't. Therefore most of them won't create multies. Because people won't have a reason to create multies, multies won't be created and we just might win the war on multying.

You also fail to acknowledge that since Q has a fixed amount of resources an account can get not everything can be rebuilt. Sure losses are part of the game. Multies are not.

I'll say this again - fighting this specific playing style fights multying the same way fighting feeding fought multying.
Honestly, why else would people multi if not to "anonymously" destroy accounts and sniping provides such an easy way to do it.

The alternative? Let's get everyone who registers to send a copy of their ID to admins and all their personal info, then let admins send it to FBI or CIA to verify their existence and what not. That'll stop the multies even more.. Oh, and anyone from ever joining the game..oh and admins from being admins as well..

tl,dr: don't be oblivious to fact that sniping is the reason why people create multies and removing the reason will remove the product of that reason, in this case multies. All other real reasons for multies have already been removed. If someone continues to create multies they won't be able to affect any accounts more than their main account would, and they'd have to spend some time to do that.

~Jack