covert level attack (sab) differential cap

[~crypt0n]

Great move to help the smaller ones. 10/10

+1

[Raven]

Just a musing.

Whilst I get the theory of putting some form of scale on sabbing, is the unintended by-product going to be a complete discouragement of going for covert levels beyond a certain point?

For the purposes of this discussion I will designate level 37 the mean covert level.

Thus people who achieved levels much higher, say 41, will retain the benefit of their higher level; whilst those that did not wont see a decent incentive (cost vs benefit ratio) in investing that much naq simply to combat a small group of players.

Wont this create the unfortunate situation of a group of accounts who can no longer really be sabbed effectively that will be perpetuated by removing the broader benefit of trying to match them?

I dont see the problem, mass the defence, remove the spies and sab their attack weps :p

Ofcourse it is not possible anymore to just sit in a high chair, sabbing trills cost of weps away with no effort. And thats the issue imo.


Since ive started playing ive got sabbed (for no reason) 3 times, and lost about 15 trill on weps. The people that did it, just do it because they can.

[EbilCC]

it should be 3 levels below people cant sab you eg 41 to 38

It is practically like that already. As far as i got it if you keep 40mill spies at lvl 41, someone will need 250x 40 = 10bill spies to get the same result at lvl 37.
Wich will make it pretty impossible to sab if you keep a healthy number of spies yourself.

no i mean people with level 41 cant sab anything below 38 it should be not 37

[Juliette]

No, no.. this is not 'if you have more than 4 levels less than me, I cannot hit you'..
This is when I -level 42- try to sab/spy/w/e a level 30 person, my covert has the power of level 34. That is all.

[Freestyle304]

I am feeling all ignorant now. I thought that it was ultimately a comparison of covert actions, and that covert action went up by sqrt of 2 for each covert level. Consequently, level 41 would be 4 times the covert as 37, and nothing in the formula that is currently in the help&rules for main changes this.

What am i missing that leads to a 250:1 power differential for spies?

Power per spy vs. power total.

Yeah. I'm still not buying that a spy is 250 times more powerful if you go up 4 covert levels, and it appears HE agrees.

That's my understanding..

Then again we sometimes just play the game.

Defender power 100,000,000,000,000
lvl 37 spies needed 58,813,000 (1 as few as 37)
lvl 38 spies needed 41,587,100 ((2^.5) as few as 37)
lvl 39 spies needed 29,406,500 (2 as few as 37)
lvl 40 spies needed 20,793,600 (2*(2^.5) as few as 37)
lvl 41 spies needed 14,703,300 ( 4 times as few as 37)

That's the math... now total power well who knows

To do the math in the other direction, the power of 1 spy, based on the formula in main help:
( ( (sqrt(2^spyLvl) x spies x %increase techs x %increse race ) + spies ) * 10 )

[100% represents no increase from techs or race bonus]

Covert Level 37: (((sqrt(2^37) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 3,707,286
Covert Level 38: (((sqrt(2^38) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 5,242,890
Covert Level 39: (((sqrt(2^39) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 7,414,562
Covert Level 40: (((sqrt(2^40) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 10,485,770
Covert Level 41: (((sqrt(2^41) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 14,829,114

(Power of Level 41 Spy)/(Power of level 37 spy) = 14,829,114/3,707,286 = 3.9999919

SO, where did the 250:1 factoid come from?

[Juliette]

Okay, so not 250 times, but 4. -_- Story remains the same, sounds less impressive though.

[doc holliday]

I am feeling all ignorant now. I thought that it was ultimately a comparison of covert actions, and that covert action went up by sqrt of 2 for each covert level. Consequently, level 41 would be 4 times the covert as 37, and nothing in the formula that is currently in the help&rules for main changes this.

What am i missing that leads to a 250:1 power differential for spies?

Power per spy vs. power total.

Yeah. I'm still not buying that a spy is 250 times more powerful if you go up 4 covert levels, and it appears HE agrees.

That's my understanding..

Then again we sometimes just play the game

Defender power 100,000,000,000,000
lvl 37 spies needed 58,813,000 (1 as few as 37)
lvl 38 spies needed 41,587,100 ((2^.5) as few as 37)
lvl 39 spies needed 29,406,500 (2 as few as 37)
lvl 40 spies needed 20,793,600 (2*(2^.5) as few as 37)
lvl 41 spies needed 14,703,300 ( 4 times as few as 37)

That's the math... now total power well who knows

To do the math in the other direction, the power of 1 spy, based on the formula in main help:
( ( (sqrt(2^spyLvl) x spies x %increase techs x %increse race ) + spies ) * 10 )

[100% represents no increase from techs or race bonus]

Covert Level 37: (((sqrt(2^37) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 3,707,286
Covert Level 38: (((sqrt(2^38) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 5,242,890
Covert Level 39: (((sqrt(2^39) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 7,414,562
Covert Level 40: (((sqrt(2^40) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 10,485,770
Covert Level 41: (((sqrt(2^41) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 14,829,114

(Power of Level 41 Spy)/(Power of level 37 spy) = 14,829,114/3,707,286 = 3.9999919

SO, where did the 250:1 factoid come from?

Maybe admin meant 250% instead of "250 times"

[Juliette]

I am feeling all ignorant now. I thought that it was ultimately a comparison of covert actions, and that covert action went up by sqrt of 2 for each covert level. Consequently, level 41 would be 4 times the covert as 37, and nothing in the formula that is currently in the help&rules for main changes this.

What am i missing that leads to a 250:1 power differential for spies?

Power per spy vs. power total.

Yeah. I'm still not buying that a spy is 250 times more powerful if you go up 4 covert levels, and it appears HE agrees.

That's my understanding..

Then again we sometimes just play the game

Defender power 100,000,000,000,000
lvl 37 spies needed 58,813,000 (1 as few as 37)
lvl 38 spies needed 41,587,100 ((2^.5) as few as 37)
lvl 39 spies needed 29,406,500 (2 as few as 37)
lvl 40 spies needed 20,793,600 (2*(2^.5) as few as 37)
lvl 41 spies needed 14,703,300 ( 4 times as few as 37)

That's the math... now total power well who knows

To do the math in the other direction, the power of 1 spy, based on the formula in main help:
( ( (sqrt(2^spyLvl) x spies x %increase techs x %increse race ) + spies ) * 10 )

[100% represents no increase from techs or race bonus]

Covert Level 37: (((sqrt(2^37) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 3,707,286
Covert Level 38: (((sqrt(2^38) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 5,242,890
Covert Level 39: (((sqrt(2^39) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 7,414,562
Covert Level 40: (((sqrt(2^40) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 10,485,770
Covert Level 41: (((sqrt(2^41) x 1 x 100% x 100%) + 1) * 10) = 14,829,114

(Power of Level 41 Spy)/(Power of level 37 spy) = 14,829,114/3,707,286 = 3.9999919

SO, where did the 250:1 factoid come from?

Maybe admin meant 250% instead of "250 times"

But 250% is not 4 times.

[High Empty]

IT'S ADMIN
if he's math was right, that would ruin half the game; exploring the "features"

ok and no i don't know where the math is either for the 250,times or %

but it still is a reduction.
People will still want to be 2-3 levels above the mean. It's just that being 6-10 levels won't matter.

Case in point the Mean spy level may be 37 in the larger alliances. But in some it's still 35
So that 4 times as many when to 8 times and if your hitting someone who is lvl 33 it's 16 times as many
So they would need 16 times as many spies to do the same damage. However covert planets can effect this, however they become next to useless when levels 37-40 have ALOT of spies. in the millions. But conversely if someone has lvl 40 and 5-10 2tril covert planets. It's worth a TON if you sabbing someone who's only got lvl 37 or less. I.E you it will function like 10 times * your factor. If the above is used 3-4 you'll be able to 28 to 40 times as effective when sabbing.

Yeah i just figured out i'm ranting.. Sorry!

[Sylus]

I dont see the problem, mass the defence, remove the spies and sab their attack weps :p

That is the exact problem though. By this logic everyone should just have covert level one...

edit: this is going to be a goddamn nightmare to calculate all the time.

[Belsamber]

Enter the era of failed sabs or over costly sabs and encouraging people to go back to old school massing

[Juliette]

Enter the era of failed sabs or over costly sabs and encouraging people to go back to old school massing

And *this* is why J is implementing it.

[Raven]

I dont see the problem, mass the defence, remove the spies and sab their attack weps :p

That is the exact problem though. By this logic everyone should just have covert level one...

edit: this is going to be a goddamn nightmare to calculate all the time.

Neh, it is not that drastic. A higher covert level will still be a big advantage, just a bit less.

[Forum]

my math was bad
updated main post.
going 5 level covert difference effective cap for about a 6x difference in power...
I did think it was more ... thus the 4lvl difference.

I am debating 3,4, or 5 ... now that the math is right, open to thoughts on that.
and again, even after launch, we can tweak...

[BMMJ13]

This seems a big overcomplicated to me, as well as many said the idea of failed sabs due to how changing it is between different targets. Is there any way that it could be limited in a different way, say every level over 4 let's you do less sabs instead of changing the powers itself.

Say 41 wants to sab a 37, they are fine. They want to sab a 36, and they can do 4/(41-36) or 4/5 or 80% as many sabs as someone within range. Same could be applied down the line. 41 wants to sab a 31, they can do 4/(41-31) or 4/10 or 40% as many sabs as someone within range. This way you are limiting covert bullying and the level difference, while still allowing the same basic mechanics of the game to be the same for the player, and only being game based side that is changed.