general discussion about national ID cards.

[[KMA]Avenger]

that was only one personal example that's happened to me so i can speak from a point of experience, nothing more. its not the be all and end all of why i dont want ID cards lol

so regardless what the cop thought i did or did not do, its a VERY dangerous situation to have in your country when cops look at anyone and everyone as someone who could potentially be guilty of something thereby justifying any kind of stop and search....am i correct or not??

[[KMA]Avenger]

my question was not referring to anyone running or acting suspicious in any way.
you might want to re-read what i wrote and then re-think your reply to my question

[[KMA]Avenger]

now your confusing me!

the earlier question/discussion was as far as i was concerned, had already been answered and i was asking a separate question...

let me put the 2nd question (which has still not been answered) a different way...

what would you call a society whose police force (and is trained to do so) views the average person with suspicion and thinks everyone could be guilty and is therefore justified in stopping anyone they see fit without just cause, and if you dont produce an ID card on demand you are then viewed with EXTREME suspicion and prejudice ...what do you call that?

[Kit-Fox]

The problem we have here is really one of understanding.

to nutshell it

Britian = the state exists to serve the people

Europe = the people exist to serve the state


& yes i know that glossing over a whole minefield of issues that apply to this, but in a nutshell that is basically what it comes down to. We Brits dont trust our government or society as a whole & think it needs constant supervision, whereas most in the EU and indeed lots of other places around the world (like say a lot of asian countries for example) believe that the state & society etc can be trusted and that sometimes a person must sacrfice for the state/society etc to continue without any bumps in the road

[Juliette]

The problem we have here is really one of understanding.

to nutshell it

Britian = the state exists to serve the people

Europe = the people exist to serve the state


& yes i know that glossing over a whole minefield of issues that apply to this, but in a nutshell that is basically what it comes down to. We Brits dont trust our government or society as a whole & think it needs constant supervision, whereas most in the EU and indeed lots of other places around the world (like say a lot of asian countries for example) believe that the state & society etc can be trusted and that sometimes a person must sacrfice for the state/society etc to continue without any bumps in the road

Agreed. I guess we came out of WWI less traumatized in our brethren. Perhaps we expected the betrayal, whereas you Brits were chivalrous until the end.
I recently read a report about how British men had diminished their chances of survival during the Titanic disaster by allowing women and children to board the lifeboats first, and then form queues to board the remaining boats. That kind of non-individualistic thinking has been abolished in Europe's main late 18th century. Imagine how traumatic a war that does not adhere to any rules whatsoever (bombing in the night, gas warfare, etc..) will have been to a people who are used to collective thinking and trust in their fellow man.. I suppose that ruined your faith in humanity forever. And frankly, placing what remained of that faith in the USA and people like Blair and Brown is .. well.. kind of masochistic. It's like willfully and knowingly tearing your souls apart because of some outdated principle in the back of your head.


Trust me, Kit-Fox, I understand your position. I pray to the Lord that one day almost all cultures of the world will be as chivalrous as Britain has been for so very long. Unfortunately, my Father is absent, and his replacements are not doing their job.
I understand how much it sucks to be in your place right now. Bah.

[Thriller]

I think everyone over sixteen has some sort of photo id already.

Id cards are redundant and overbearing idea for keeping tabs on people. I absolutely hate when the government tries to act like mom and dad. Trying to babysit an entire country, good luck with that.

If I was in the UK i would be offended if this kindergarten legislation went through.

[Kit-Fox]

I think everyone over sixteen has some sort of photo id already.

Id cards are redundant and overbearing idea for keeping tabs on people. I absolutely hate when the government tries to act like mom and dad. Trying to babysit an entire country, good luck with that.

If I was in the UK i would be offended if this kindergarten legislation went through.

Errr the ID Card Act of 2006 has already been passed by parliment and it is law in the UK.

The offences already exist and the police are starting to use these new powers to arrest & prosecute people with.

We have already issued ID card to non UK nationals who work in this country.

All that remains is for the so called 'super secure' (yeah, right! ) database to go live and for registrations onto the sytem to be made of UK nationals. Of course the plan appears to be once 60% of the public are registered to force everyone else to by statutory instrument that doesnt need parlimentary debate

[Thriller]

I think everyone over sixteen has some sort of photo id already.

Id cards are redundant and overbearing idea for keeping tabs on people. I absolutely hate when the government tries to act like mom and dad. Trying to babysit an entire country, good luck with that.

If I was in the UK i would be offended if this kindergarten legislation went through.

Errr the ID Card Act of 2006 has already been passed by parliment and it is law in the UK.

The offences already exist and the police are starting to use these new powers to arrest & prosecute people with.

We have already issued ID card to non UK nationals who work in this country.

All that remains is for the so called 'super secure' (yeah, right! ) database to go live and for registrations onto the sytem to be made of UK nationals. Of course the plan appears to be once 60% of the public are registered to force everyone else to by statutory instrument that doesnt need parlimentary debate

Oh well your already **Filtered** then, hurray for not living in the UK

[[KMA]Avenger]

this also touches on the concept of victimless crimes.
even though none of the basic and fundamental laws (IE. no one has been cheated/lied to, no one has been robbed and no one has been killed) which govern all modern society's have been broken, we have seen an exponential growth of laws which makes criminals of people, even though there is no victim involved.

when you have a situation where there are so many laws which could potentially make anybody a criminal for simply forgetting to carry your ID card/papers, then you could argue that your only a few steps away from a dictatorship.

and just one more point...if history has taught us anything its this, bureaucracy's by their very nature only serve the Govt and not the people. they stifle all of us and our community's. an increase in bureaucracy has never been/nor will ever be a solution to any problem faced by our individual society's.

to back up what i say, one only needs to look at the UK's NHS. the Govt is throwing MASSIVE amounts of money at the NHS in hopes it would improve but look at what's happened, there has been NO increase in quality of care, reduction in waiting times in A&E dpts, or reduction in waiting times for operations...there has however been a MASSIVE increase in admin personnel right across the board.


this thread has been an excellent read so far

[Brdavs]

Honestly, you people are such drama queens.

90% of the planet allready has ID cards, amongs them countries universaly considered the most democratic ones.

This paranoia is really funny sometimes. The govmt. is supposed to serve yet every peep from it is a plot to turn into a dictatorship.

The countries with best healthcare in the world, that are most secure and where induviduals enjoy the highest personal freedom by a rule sport NHSs and IDs.

Howcome they`re not really pinko totallitarians living in caves? Oh I know. Cos they have a HEALTHY relationship with their government.

[[KMA]Avenger]

mate, there's not a single Govt on this planet that doesn't like bureaucracy. the more bureaucracy the better. not in all of history have we seen such massive Govt, and not only massive but also invasive into privacy. this has nothing to do with conspiracy's or paranoia, but figuratively speaking...look me in the eye and with all honesty, tell me by what right our Govts have a right to force ID cards on anyone!

my Govt (regardless of country) has no rights whatsoever over me (so long as i do no harm, commit no fraud or damage) if i say so...isn't that how it should be? do i not have the right to say NO regardless of why? what's the difference between a democracy and any dictatorship from history if you take away those fundamental rights?

it has nothing to do with paranoia...i dont want one and that's that, i refuse to carry one!

[Brdavs]

Dude, you`re living in a modern human society. A complex social mechanism. You`re a part of a large structure even when you`re sleeping at night. Such structures require an organizational structure etc. to be properly managed.

I don`t exactly know why you use bureaucracy in such a derogatory manner. Sure at times it could be more efficient or even more humane (thoe a certain degree of officiality is necessary, afterall its the workhorse of the executive branch) but in its foundation its the advancment and bedrock of a democratical society. It provides predictibility, stability & transparency for citizens.

And in regards to IDs... you`re not a flipping hermit man.

The goverment allready knows who you are. The basic human right of a newborn baby is to get a name and be noted in the official records. Officers can allready ask you for your identification and identify you. The fact IDs exist cos not everyne drives and even fewer travel to make this easier is not a blight on your basic personal freedome. If you`re not getting pulled over to identify yourself with a document on a daily basis today a plastic document in your wallet won`t cause UK to slip into 1984 for you just cos of that.


The key is not to have a govt. that is as small as possible and live a secluded life with a sawn off shotgun under the bed to defend your land from the big brother.
The key is to have a system of government that provides extensive and quality (as much as posible) public services to its citizens and at the same time have it transparent, supervised and accountable via a democratic process.

Its not 1776 anymore. I know you`re not from the US but this is trademark stance of conservative/libertarian americans. They`d rather have no social security, no healthcare, no nothing that isnt as individualistic as possible - all stemming from some stale 1776 fear of the British (and counterrevolution lol) that oozes out of the constitution. It`s really quite hillarious.

[[KMA]Avenger]

Dude, you`re living in a modern human society. A complex social mechanism. You`re a part of a large structure even when you`re sleeping at night. Such structures require an organizational structure etc. to be properly managed.

i understand that, but i question the motivation and intent behind that "management" in the present world climate.

I don`t exactly know why you use bureaucracy in such a derogatory manner. Sure at times it could be more efficient or even more humane (thoe a certain degree of officiality is necessary, afterall its the workhorse of the executive branch) but in its foundation its the advancment and bedrock of a democratical society. It provides predictibility, stability & transparency for citizens.

so, as things stand in our "democratic" society's, you think we have transparency in Govt and the bureaucracy? if so, please show me where because i cant see it!

And in regards to IDs... you`re not a flipping hermit man.

i'm glad you realize and know i'm not a hermit seriously, i'm actually quite sociable and have quite a few friends and i especially love to put things like this out of my head and socialize

The goverment allready knows who you are.

so if they already know who i am, why do they want me to carry more ID? i dont see the logic in them wanting to foist more ID and bureaucracy on me...maybe i'm just dumb!

The basic human right of a newborn baby is to get a name and be noted in the official records. Officers can allready ask you for your identification and identify you.

same as above, so i'm forced to ask, if they can already ID me, what's the problem?

The fact IDs exist cos not everyne drives and even fewer travel to make this easier is not a blight on your basic personal freedome.

i beg to differ...what if the British parliament makes it mandatory with penalty's for not complying regardless of reason, i forget my ID 1 day and a copper stops me for no reason and he doesn't like my hair, my breath or the way i speak to him, maybe i get stopped by a woman PC and she's on her monthly...where's my freedom then?

If you`re not getting pulled over to identify yourself with a document on a daily basis today a plastic document in your wallet won`t cause UK to slip into 1984 for you just cos of that.

i dont exactly understand what your trying to say here, but with regards to the last bit about 1984, see my above response.

The key is not to have a govt. that is as small as possible and live a secluded life with a sawn off shotgun under the bed to defend your land from the big brother.
The key is to have a system of government that provides extensive and quality (as much as posible) public services to its citizens and at the same time have it transparent, supervised and accountable via a democratic process.

are you saying we have a high standard of Govt that is transparent and accountable at the moment? if so, i can only LMAO!

Its not 1776 anymore. I know you`re not from the US but this is trademark stance of conservative/libertarian americans. They`d rather have no social security, no healthcare, no nothing that isnt as individualistic as possible - all stemming from some stale 1776 fear of the British (and counterrevolution lol) that oozes out of the constitution. It`s really quite hillarious.

if thats what you think, then you dont understand why 1776 happened, the American mentality behind the war of independence, its causes the subsequent creation of the constitution and bill of rights.


OH btw, i forgot to mention...

did you know our leaders want to link ID cards to carbon credit control? do you even understand what that would mean when you buy products with huge carbon footprints like petrol, meat, big screen TV's?

i suggest you read this: http://taxdollars.freedomblogging.com/2 ... tvs/12993/

also go research all the new green taxes coming in, such as new taxes at the oil well/head, taxes on meat, and what this would mean to you when you swipe your brand spanking new ID card at the supermarket and it has zero carbon credits on it...

i'm not kidding,its not just about ID'ing someone, this is the thin end of the wedge, first they say we need to have some form of official ID, a standardised ID for everyone then they will say "well we've come this far, lets go a little further", even if that's not the intent,i'm not willing to let them put their foot in the door, full stop.

Govt has encroached on my life to much as it is, this much and no further!

[Brdavs]

i understand that, but i question the motivation and intent behind that "management" in the present world climate.

What climate? The NOW buildup? Please...

so, as things stand in our "democratic" society's, you think we have transparency in Govt and the bureaucracy? if so, please show me where because i cant see it!

You get elections every four years and you you can look up procedures and your rights in a bureocratic process you`re part of.
Thats the definition of "democracy" and "transparency" my man.

so if they already know who i am, why do they want me to carry more ID? i dont see the logic in them wanting to foist more ID and bureaucracy on me...maybe i'm just dumb!

Because it makes life easier for them and you? You`re currently allready identifiable if rpoper incentive exists to identify you. It jsut takes more effort. With an ID card it would take less effort. Thats the only difference. Christ its not even mandatory (atlest not where I live) and cos its smaler dimensions and more durable make most people opt it over a passport (accuire one in addition to a passport) cos it fits next to a credit card in your wallet lol.

same as above, so i'm forced to ask, if they can already ID me, what's the problem?

No problem. From personal experience I however find its immensley more practical to have a small ID card on your person instead of a passport. How old are you? If you ever sorted out any paperwork for yourself you know that you usually need a form of identification to do it. And drivers licenses usually dont cut it cos they`re more easily counterfitted. So that means either haul arse home to get your passport from the closet or flip out your ID.

i beg to differ...what if the British parliament makes it mandatory with penalty's for not complying regardless of reason, i forget my ID 1 day and a copper stops me for no reason and he doesn't like my hair, my breath or the way i speak to him, maybe i get stopped by a woman PC and she's on her monthly...where's my freedom then?

I dont deal in "what ifs"...

All these what ifs are allready applicable to your situation today. If a copper on her montly stops you today she can allready make your life miserable, in no smal part just to identify you.

If she has no cause just lodge a formal complaint lol.

You`re only gonna be safe from all these "what if"s if you really bocome a hermit man.


If you`re afraid that this might happen cos if IDs, and it is not allready happening, then that is proof of what I am saying about a democratic, rule of law, accountable and transparent civic structre you live in. If I were wrong, you would allready have hade those problems + much worse.

i dont exactly understand what your trying to say here, but with regards to the last bit about 1984, see my above response.

I`m trying to say that one more means of identification will not plunge you into a dystopia lol.

are you saying we have a high standard of Govt that is transparent and accountable at the moment? if so, i can only LMAO!

Thats kinda how the non "zomg elites NWO tyrany!" crowd sees it, yes.

You gotta learn that even if the world is not 100% to your taste it`s not automatically evil heh.

if thats what you think, then you dont understand why 1776 happened, the American mentality behind the war of independence, its causes the subsequent creation of the constitution and bill of rights.


OH btw, i forgot to mention...

did you know our leaders want to link ID cards to carbon credit control? do you even understand what that would mean when you buy products with huge carbon footprints like petrol, meat, big screen TV's?

i suggest you read this: http://taxdollars.freedomblogging.com/2 ... tvs/12993/

also go research all the new green taxes coming in, such as new taxes at the oil well/head, taxes on meat, and what this would mean to you when you swipe your brand spanking new ID card at the supermarket and it has zero carbon credits on it...

i'm not kidding,its not just about ID'ing someone, this is the thin end of the wedge, first they say we need to have some form of official ID, a standardised ID for everyone then they will say "well we've come this far, lets go a little further", even if that's not the intent,i'm not willing to let them put their foot in the door, full stop.

Govt has encroached on my life to much as it is, this much and no further!

Howcome you see conspiracies everywhere yet idolize 1776? Isnt it possible the new world elites just wanted to be rid of the old world elites above them?

As far as carbon crediting goes, I think its actually a stellar idea.

Its obvious the world has limitations and that a society of 9bil people has to adapt. You`re not in your universal bubble of freedome and your "god given" (lol) freedomes colide with freedomes of others and of the interests of societies at large.

Green taxes are trying to stimulate consumer behaviour in a way to reduce the strain on our world.
You might find this inconcievable today but in time Chinas 1 child policy might become a reality everywhere. Abhorrent incroachment on freedomes eh? Well guess what, the world has a naggin tendency to change. When theres too many of us we`ll either have to slow down reproduction or exterminate say africa.
Societies and induviduals have to adapt. It used to be an abhorrent incroachment on a freedome of a citizen of Rome to dictate to him what he can and cannot do with his property (slaves & livestock) - cant maliciously destroy them for no reason.
The days when a settler could do and shoot whoever he wanted and lived on his ranch without being bothered by anyone, especialy the gvmt., are kinda gone man.

[Ashu]

i understand that, but i question the motivation and intent behind that "management" in the present world climate.

What climate? The NOW buildup? Please...

so, as things stand in our "democratic" society's, you think we have transparency in Govt and the bureaucracy? if so, please show me where because i cant see it!

You get elections every four years and you you can look up procedures and your rights in a bureocratic process you`re part of.
Thats the definition of "democracy" and "transparency" my man.

so if they already know who i am, why do they want me to carry more ID? i dont see the logic in them wanting to foist more ID and bureaucracy on me...maybe i'm just dumb!

Because it makes life easier for them and you? You`re currently allready identifiable if rpoper incentive exists to identify you. It jsut takes more effort. With an ID card it would take less effort. Thats the only difference. Christ its not even mandatory (atlest not where I live) and cos its smaler dimensions and more durable make most people opt it over a passport (accuire one in addition to a passport) cos it fits next to a credit card in your wallet lol.

same as above, so i'm forced to ask, if they can already ID me, what's the problem?

No problem. From personal experience I however find its immensley more practical to have a small ID card on your person instead of a passport. How old are you? If you ever sorted out any paperwork for yourself you know that you usually need a form of identification to do it. And drivers licenses usually dont cut it cos they`re more easily counterfitted. So that means either haul arse home to get your passport from the closet or flip out your ID.

i beg to differ...what if the British parliament makes it mandatory with penalty's for not complying regardless of reason, i forget my ID 1 day and a copper stops me for no reason and he doesn't like my hair, my breath or the way i speak to him, maybe i get stopped by a woman PC and she's on her monthly...where's my freedom then?

I dont deal in "what ifs"...

All these what ifs are allready applicable to your situation today. If a copper on her montly stops you today she can allready make your life miserable, in no smal part just to identify you.

If she has no cause just lodge a formal complaint lol.

You`re only gonna be safe from all these "what if"s if you really bocome a hermit man.


If you`re afraid that this might happen cos if IDs, and it is not allready happening, then that is proof of what I am saying about a democratic, rule of law, accountable and transparent civic structre you live in. If I were wrong, you would allready have hade those problems + much worse.

i dont exactly understand what your trying to say here, but with regards to the last bit about 1984, see my above response.

I`m trying to say that one more means of identification will not plunge you into a dystopia lol.

are you saying we have a high standard of Govt that is transparent and accountable at the moment? if so, i can only LMAO!

Thats kinda how the non "zomg elites NWO tyrany!" crowd sees it, yes.

You gotta learn that even if the world is not 100% to your taste it`s not automatically evil heh.

if thats what you think, then you dont understand why 1776 happened, the American mentality behind the war of independence, its causes the subsequent creation of the constitution and bill of rights.


OH btw, i forgot to mention...

did you know our leaders want to link ID cards to carbon credit control? do you even understand what that would mean when you buy products with huge carbon footprints like petrol, meat, big screen TV's?

i suggest you read this: http://taxdollars.freedomblogging.com/2 ... tvs/12993/

also go research all the new green taxes coming in, such as new taxes at the oil well/head, taxes on meat, and what this would mean to you when you swipe your brand spanking new ID card at the supermarket and it has zero carbon credits on it...

i'm not kidding,its not just about ID'ing someone, this is the thin end of the wedge, first they say we need to have some form of official ID, a standardised ID for everyone then they will say "well we've come this far, lets go a little further", even if that's not the intent,i'm not willing to let them put their foot in the door, full stop.

Govt has encroached on my life to much as it is, this much and no further!

Howcome you see conspiracies everywhere yet idolize 1776? Isnt it possible the new world elites just wanted to be rid of the old world elites above them? How can you agree with the concept of "world elites"?stand against everything mankind has tried to accomplishe

As far as carbon crediting goes, I think its actually a stellar idea. So lets start with big screen TV's...not factories,not huge automobiles...makes sense...

Its obvious the world has limitations and that a society of 9bil people has to adapt. You`re not in your universal bubble of freedome and your "god given" (lol) freedomes colide with freedomes of others and of the interests of societies at large.FREEDOM does not mean being able to do anything,but taking up responsibility and deciding your own course of action,therefor NOT interrupting another's good faith

Green taxes are trying to stimulate consumer behaviour in a way to reduce the strain on our world.
You might find this inconcievable today but in time Chinas 1 child policy might become a reality everywhere. Abhorrent incroachment on freedomes eh? Well guess what, the world has a naggin tendency to change. When theres too many of us we`ll either have to slow down reproduction or exterminate say africa.
Societies and induviduals have to adapt. It used to be an abhorrent incroachment on a freedome of a citizen of Rome to dictate to him what he can and cannot do with his property (slaves & livestock) - cant maliciously destroy them for no reason. We make the change,why should we adapt to our own making?Further more,NO ONE can tell me how many children i may have,if the government has a problem with it,DEAL WITH IT without doing harm to me or my child,i do not support this "patch it up and leave it to rott" solution that many governments have implemented.The root of all wrong doings is the unwillingness to step on a few big companies and influential people for the common good(and man) and that whats killing justice and morality everywhere!
The days when a settler could do and shoot whoever he wanted and lived on his ranch without being bothered by anyone, especialy the gvmt., are kinda gone man.

This statement i cannot place anywhere...what did KMA said to lead you to believe this is the sum of his thoughts?