Greased Gerbil's Quote Discussion #4 - Reparations

[agapooka]

Three millenia ago, my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was captured in an Assyrian raid on his village and subsequently brutally tortured in manners that ought not be described here, lest the younger readers be mentally scarred.

Although the Assyrian empire no longer formally exists, I believe that it is the responsibility of every one of their descendants to rectify the situation, as their forefathers' treatment of my relative has caused him to become so disturbed that he beat his son, and in turn, his son beat his children, as he had grown up believing it to be normal. The ultimate consequence of this was that my father spanked me as a child and this very act has scarred me so, that I spend every waking moment unable to concentrate on my civilian duties and cannot become a functional member of society.


On the other hand, choices. I saw someone assume that the reason why the average salary of blacks is lower than the average salary of whites in the same country, the USA, is some kind of racial discmination. My theory is different, although I don't deny that such discrimination *may* play a role. I believe that the "black identity" is strong enough that African Americans feel compelled to live in communities solely or mostly consisting of their counterparts. This has the effect of keeping many of them bound to a geographical area where the tools of freedom are not readily accessible. The children go to schools where poverty already abounds as a tautological result of an unending cycle and they learn the art of violence, as the students bring their chaotic personal lives into the public arena. This atmosphere inherently inhibits the ability to learn anything useful and many find themselves dropping out of school, regardless of their true potential on the questionable capitalist path.

Essentially we have poor people staying with poor people, only learning how to stay poor. Und so weiter. While every man has the ability to choose, not every man is aware of his or her choices. Very often, one will stay with what they know and view any alternative as unattainable.



Cheers,
Agapooka

[[KMA]Avenger]

the Turks invaded my country, killed my relatives and stole land that should be rightfully mine...

maybe i should put in a claim...hell, why stop with blacks?! lets all put in a claim! i mean, if we all go back far enough, we can put in a claim against God for kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden!

[Juliette]

Imagine a Black Irish Huguenot with Jewish ancestry..
Nightmare.



(Claimwise.)

[agapooka]

The ridiculousness of it all aside, let's look at the effect of any handouts. Handouts make people dependent upon the source of the handout. They lose any ability to provide for themselves and do anything they can to continue getting the handout, until they end up in a situation where they are told to do things that require more effort than providing for oneself. They, however, readily do those things, in order to ensure that they continue receiving what was once a freebie. Because they have lost the ability to do this, as they have always lived from handouts, the result is ultimately a new kind of slavery to the system that spoonfed it.

As far as I can see, the ability to claim damages for the enslavement of distant relatives is just another opportunity to be spoonfed by the system. It is a prison in its effect. Giving to "the unfortunate" makes them more unfortunate by tempting them into becoming dependent on the gift and less and less capable of proverbially fishing for themselves.

[Juliette]

The ridiculousness of it all aside, let's look at the effect of any handouts. Handouts make people dependent upon the source of the handout. They lose any ability to provide for themselves and do anything they can to continue getting the handout, until they end up in a situation where they are told to do things that require more effort than providing for oneself. They, however, readily do those things, in order to ensure that they continue receiving what was once a freebie. Because they have lost the ability to do this, as they have always lived from handouts, the result is ultimately a new kind of slavery to the system that spoonfed it.

As far as I can see, the ability to claim damages for the enslavement of distant relatives is just another opportunity to be spoonfed by the system. It is a prison in its effect. Giving to "the unfortunate" makes them more unfortunate by tempting them into becoming dependent on the gift and less and less capable of proverbially fishing for themselves.

I will restrain myself from connecting certain stereotypes with certain groups who demand certain handouts for certain atrocities.. *grin* Wait. I failed.

>_>
<_<

It is very good for revisionist historians though. All kinds of new atrocities committed in ages past pop up.

[Hitchkok]

Three millenia ago, my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was captured in an Assyrian raid on his village and subsequently brutally tortured in manners that ought not be described here, lest the younger readers be mentally scarred.

Although the Assyrian empire no longer formally exists, I believe that it is the responsibility of every one of their descendants to rectify the situation, as their forefathers' treatment of my relative has caused him to become so disturbed that he beat his son, and in turn, his son beat his children, as he had grown up believing it to be normal. The ultimate consequence of this was that my father spanked me as a child and this very act has scarred me so, that I spend every waking moment unable to concentrate on my civilian duties and cannot become a functional member of society.

oh, dear agapooka. your posts are always so well thought out and well written.
too bad you always revert to the same old reductio ad absurdom. sure, it's a powerful technique, but one that easily becomes either a four terms fallacy or a blatant straw-men, if not applied properly. and let's face it, it's appeal to the layman is less that of an elegant logical argument, and rather that of clarity and simpleness.
and here is what you miss this time round:

the thing is, the payment is not meant to be a payment for individuals to repay them for wrongs did to them. it is a way to bring two ethnic groups toghether

the average black person in america is worse of than the average white person. and it would be naivety to claim slavery isn't one of the roots of this situation.
the reparation is a means to acknowledge that by the govrnment and it's institutions, which are still predominently white, thereby both releiving some anger in the black community and guilt in the white one.
the thing is, policy is not detarmined by looking back. it is determined by looking forward.

'nuff said, me thinks.

On the other hand, choices. I saw someone assume that the reason why the average salary of blacks is lower than the average salary of whites in the same country, the USA, is some kind of racial discmination. My theory is different, although I don't deny that such discrimination *may* play a role. I believe that the "black identity" is strong enough that African Americans feel compelled to live in communities solely or mostly consisting of their counterparts. This has the effect of keeping many of them bound to a geographical area where the tools of freedom are not readily accessible. The children go to schools where poverty already abounds as a tautological result of an unending cycle and they learn the art of violence, as the students bring their chaotic personal lives into the public arena. This atmosphere inherently inhibits the ability to learn anything useful and many find themselves dropping out of school, regardless of their true potential on the questionable capitalist path.

Essentially we have poor people staying with poor people, only learning how to stay poor. Und so weiter. While every man has the ability to choose, not every man is aware of his or her choices. Very often, one will stay with what they know and view any alternative as unattainable.



Cheers,
Agapooka

i'll only say this: i do not support cash payment to individuals on this respect. but funneling tax money to youth centers, adult education, anty-drugs programs and so on? can you honestly tell me those aren't effective tools in changing the reality you describe?

[agapooka]

I don't always use reductio ad absurdum, although I chose to use it here, because it's incredibly amusing.

Besides, many of my well-thought out posts end up getting ignored or the point gets missed. Glad you picked up on that, though.

As for the issue of money not solving problems, it's just one of today's idiosyncrasies, I suppose. When faced with a problem, many seem to operate upon the assumption that throwing enough money at it will solve it. Clearly, if solving the problem results in an cessation of the funding to solve it, this might motivate people to look for a solution whilst conveniently never finding one.

Agapooka