Rise of the ASBO.

[[KMA]Avenger]

ASBO (Antisocial behavioural order) has been a spectacular failure proven by the fact the Govt now want to introduce other measures in combating antisocial behaviour and the fact many of those who have been slapped with ASBO's see the ASBO as some kind of merit or badge of honour. Also those slapped with an ASBO very rarely-if ever-are punished when they breach the order.

The Govt want the right to seize ASB offenders "gadgets" (IE. Ipods, Mobile phones and so on). I think that has got to be the dumbest idea to tackle this problem i have ever heard...what's to stop an offender from going out and stealing some poor kids ipod or phone, whatever?!
I get the impression this has been rushed in with little to know thought of the consequences.

So, what can we do as a society to not only combat ASB (ABS=antisocial behaviour) but to educate offenders to stop them becoming repeat offenders?


What i would do would be to make ASB offenders pick their punishment (depending on the severity of the crime obviously) from a short list which could include X-amount of hours community service.
attending an army boot camp and learning respect the old fashioned way. learning a new trade...things along those lines.

Before anyone jumps down my throat for those few suggestions, i don't fancy a long post and those are just off the top of my head...


What are your thoughts on this matter.

[MEZZANINE]

The ASBO, what a joke. the scum that get them consider it badge of honor, they boast about having one.

Young offenders institutes ( borstals rebranded ) dont work any better than prison, they keep the public safe in the short term and make career criminals in the long term. Also very expensive to run.

Community Service only works if properly enforced and supervised, which it is not, again due to lack of funding, and lack of consequences for those who dont attend or do the work.

Fining the parents dont work because most the parents of ABSO kids, and adult ABSOs are on low income or benefits. They have no 'official' money to take.

Tough call but I say back to basics, humans are just animals in clothes and behavioral modification in animals comes down to the Carrot & Stick method, reward good, punish bad. This has to take place in school and the home. I agree with the idea of confiscating personal possessions, both kids and parents/adults only to be returned after Community Service has been completed and a period of trouble free time has passed. Violence is not allowed as punishment any more but ritual humiliation still works, something creative to embarrass those who misbehave and make them look silly in front of those they crave the approval of.

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[MEZZANINE]

Seizing the personal belongings of a person to whom these new control orders might apply to is nothing other than theft if those belongings werent;

- Stolen

- Bought with the proceeds of Crime

As such it wont happen as the first thing the government seizes that was legitmately owned will see a case of brought against them for theft, probably lodged with the EU courts. Quite rightly too & its a good bet the UK elgov would lose, also quite rightly. Bad idea from start to finish

EDIT: Or in a nutshell, the government cant sit on their moral high horse telling us what we all can and cant do and then break those rules themselves

or in an even smaller nutshell

You cant do bad guy stuff & say 'its ok we're the good guys' because you wont be anymore

It's NOT theft, it's no different to fining people, then sending in the bailiffs to seize possessions when they cant or wont pay the fines, just cutting out the middlemen, lots of bureaucracy, and getting the goods before they can be hidden.

But you are right about the Euronutters, these are the same people who think prisoners should get to vote while at the same time appointing a president that no one voted for.

I think we should smuggle all the ASBOs into Brussels and leave them there with no passports

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[MEZZANINE]

Of course its theft, the proposals dont say that such seizures will replace fines, but instead indicate that such seizures of property will occur and then fines will also need to be paid ontop, so your analogy sort of falls down right there.

Thats theft by any definition, ok state sponsored, but its still theft

It all well for some poncy students or politicians to moralise about the rights of criminals, quoting BS crime figures saying crime is falling, but I know for fact that crime figures only drop because less people bother to report crime, they either deal with it themselves or accept and live with it. Personally Im more the eye for an eye style of justice, these ASBO scum steal, vandalize, harass people, they take and take and take, and dont play by the rules, they dont respect other peoples rights so IMO they forfeit their own rights.

Me, my family and friends are lucky, we can take care of ourselves and each other so no ones messes with us, but in the area I live in I see others not so lucky every day, it's time the police got some teeth because right now they're a bad joke, last time I spoke to a copper he was telling me that he was going to arrest me if I took the law into my own hands over a gang of kids who just smashed car windows in my street, so not only would he not arrest them, he was trying to tie my hands and stop me from stopping them, how messed up is that ???

[Jack]

I'm surprised to see Avenger seemingly in support of a form of social control program.

[jedi~tank]

Disarm the public, institute government initiated behavioral programs.. where have we seen this in recent world history?

[Ashu]

Disarm the public, institute government initiated behavioral programs.. where have we seen this in recent world history?

Nazis in the Second World War and present day communist China.

[[KMA]Avenger]

I'm surprised to see Avenger seemingly in support of a form of social control program.

I've never advocated or asked for "wild west" style peace keeping and justice, so why are you surprised Jack?



@MEZZANINE, i understand what your saying but i can't agree with it. KF is correct.

The key to stopping and preventing antisocial behaviour is obviously 2 fold, education and active engagement. active engagement meaning a programme must be put in place so when an AS offender completes whatever form of education/re-education s/he has gone through-they can put those new found skills to practical and economic use.

Taking away someone's property because they beat some kid up or smashed in a window wont solve anything, in fact, i would go so far as to say it will embitter them more towards law and order.

[MEZZANINE]

Disarm the public, institute government initiated behavioral programs.. where have we seen this in recent world history?

In the UK we're not armed, but I guess we could go the USA route, a gun in every home, tens of thousands of people shot every year, the largest 'slave labor' prison population in the world, hmm people living their whole lives in work camps, thats sounds familiar, where did I read that in the history books ??? maybe we should all swear allegiance to the fuhrer, err I mean Flag everyday lol


Every country now and throughout history has tried to indoctrinate it's young with the values, ideology or religion it thinks is right to varying degrees, this has to happen because if the vast majority dont think the same way the society splinters and collapses. Our society is relatively free and lax compared to most and modifying the behavior of a criminal element who break basic laws like do not steal, and do not hurt people has to be better than segregating and locking them all up IMO

I'm surprised to see Avenger seemingly in support of a form of social control program.

I've never advocated or asked for "wild west" style peace keeping and justice, so why are you surprised Jack?



@MEZZANINE, i understand what your saying but i can't agree with it. KF is correct.

The key to stopping and preventing antisocial behaviour is obviously 2 fold, education and active engagement. active engagement meaning a programme must be put in place so when an AS offender completes whatever form of education/re-education s/he has gone through-they can put those new found skills to practical and economic use.

Taking away someone's property because they beat some kid up or smashed in a window wont solve anything, in fact, i would go so far as to say it will embitter them more towards law and order.

Ah the softly softly approach, all very nice but it's already been tried and failed, yes the 'Carrot' needs to be dangled offering a better quality of life to those who work hard and play by the rules, but a great many realise that right now that 'Carrot' is out of reach no matter how hard they work simply because there are not enough good jobs and wealth to go around. You will always need the 'Stick' element to punish those who see hurting and taking from others as a better option. Since corporal punishment is no longer allowed and locking people up only works short term, seizing personal possessions seems the most humane punishment option to me, and if you read my 1st post I said possessions to be returned after Community Service has been completed and a trouble free period of time has passed, so it's confiscation NOT theft. Most parents already do this, if your children misbehave you dont let them play their consoles, or you ground them so they cant go out on bikes etc, when they are good, complete there homework, do their chores etc, parents reward with play and TV time and treats.

[[KMA]Avenger]

Ah the softly softly approach,

No mate, i am not advocating a "softly softly" approach...read my opening post.

all very nice but it's already been tried and failed, yes the 'Carrot' needs to be dangled offering a better quality of life to those who work hard and play by the rules, but a great many realise that right now that 'Carrot' is out of reach no matter how hard they work simply because there are not enough good jobs and wealth to go around.

Do you really want me to go down the road of "but we have no money and no jobs!" because you wont like what i have to say!

What i will say though, is that for me this is the heart of the problem...no money, wealth or jobs...and whose fault is that!?! I'll give you a hint...It's not the Govts fault and not the Bansters or the "Elites".

You will always need the 'Stick' element to punish those who see hurting and taking from others as a better option. Since corporal punishment is no longer allowed and locking people up only works short term, seizing personal possessions seems the most humane punishment option to me, and if you read my 1st post I said possessions to be returned after Community Service has been completed and a trouble free period of time has passed, so it's confiscation NOT theft. Most parents already do this, if your children misbehave you dont let them play their consoles, or you ground them so they cant go out on bikes etc, when they are good, complete there homework, do their chores etc, parents reward with play and TV time and treats.

I understand what your saying and to a certain degree you have a point BUT, take an ASBO's Ipod away, what's he going to do or say, oh well, i better behave or i wont get it back, or will he just go out and steal the first one he gets a chance or taking?

Try and put yourself in a "lout's" POV, it's the attitude and environment you need to change, not take their "stuff" and leave them with the hopes of getting it back sometime in the future.

As for doing that in the home, that works up to a certain age, and depending on upbringing the child will grow up with respect and humility...what if the child has not been fortunate enough to have parents who care enough to "talk" with their kids and raise them in such a manor?

Think about it.

Tackling the conclusions of a problem is not going to make the underlying problem go away, this has to be "nipped" in the bud-so to speak.

[MEZZANINE]

Tackling the conclusions of a problem is not going to make the underlying problem go away, this has to be "nipped" in the bud-so to speak.

The underlying problem has always existed and always will as it comes down to human nature, people will always compete, in our society we compete for money and the things money buys, most people obey the rules of the race, earning and paying taxes with in the law, some people get a head start with family money, some start later and have to work much hard to achieve the same, and some will see the race ahead of them, acknowledge that they are unable or willing to put in the work to be in the winning group and cheat, simply say these rules are to one sided so FUALL Im going to do it outside the rules, take what I want and damn who it hurts along the way.

There is no way to fix the underlying problem, upbringing and education can reduce it by lying to people, telling them they can all be winners, but the truth is not all people can be winners, even if everyone plays by the same rules/laws some will be becoming the richer ( upper class ), some will do OK the content ( middle class ) and some will fail and stay poor ( the lower class ). Proportionally more of the lower class will always give up on and break the rules/laws because that way of life in more beneficial to them UNLESS you have strong deterrents, consequences that swing the risk to benefit ratio away from breaking the rules/laws and back to accepting their lot in life.

Harsh YES, realistic YES. TBH I think that anyone who thinks the world can be made a fair and equal place is delusional lol People at the top want to stay at the top and people at the bottom want to get to the top, no one really wants to be equal.

[Kit-Fox]

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