The State of the Community: An opinion by Psi

[Mordack]

It pains me to disagree with you, Noobert, because I'm quite a fan.

Tekki is irrelevant to this discussion. No offense, Tekki, because you know I'm a fan.

They're being.. generous? Generous in deigning to enlighten the simple users as to why they did what they did? Don't you see, Noobert? Don't you grasp it? There's a gap between users and moderators right now. I happen to think that the reasons they sacked her are valid. Valid, and understandable. If they'd published them, maybe people would at least accept it, but this veil of secrecy is wrong. Moderators are public servants, and the public deserve to know what they're up to.

I realise I just **Filtered** my chance to being a mod again, as I did apply, but nevermind. It needed to be said. Transparency IS important. The more the users know, the more comfortable they feel. They need to know why the mods do what they do. Their reasoning. Otherwise it falls apart. Otherwise there's a gap.

Yes. They are being generous because Moderators put up with enough **Filtered** to know now that it doesn't matter what you do, people will always be dissatisfied with what you do. This is the number one rule on any forum. I'm stating they are being generous because other forums wouldn't give you the same leeway that this one does. Other forums would in fact warn the originator of the thread, lock it, etc. You cannot please everyone, and in this case it would do more harm than good to post the reasoning behind this. Zeratul was right because it isn't their business to know why a Moderator was fired. Why should it be? Tekki was removed for something she did that violates the Moderator's handbook. Why should the public have the right to know something that pertains only to the Moderator's? Do they deserve to know why somebody was removed? Maybe, maybe not. It's a matter of opinion.

Transparency is very important, in this I agree, but in this matter Mordack. Tell me. What would you do? Give them the information, or not? I voted in favor of giving them this information as you can see by the creation of my own topic in the Moderator forum. You have had a change of heart since the creation of that topic, it seems.

Why would posting your opinion matter? Deni, Zeratul, and Eärendil know you are a very capable Moderator if not Admin itself. I highly doubt anything short of giving the middle finger to the Moderator team will have any effect what so ever on your application, Greg. You know that. Anyone who is willing to state his opinion, regardless of the outcome I would vote for in a heart beat. Just as long as they aren't a **Filtered** in a box.

No, I have not had a change of heart.

I would have given them the information from the start. It might have been difficult, because Tekki has a lot of friends, but hey, they could have weathered it.

But you know what's more dangerous than a lack of transparency?

Inconsistency.

A mod team which is is seen as weak, and playing to popular feeling at every opportunity, is as bad as one which ignores everybody. Sometimes you do have to make hard decisions. Sometimes you do have to upset people. But you do it. You do it firsthand, and you tell them. My warning to the admin about latently revealing Tekki's identity is that it would portay them as people who pander to public opinion, rather than people who know that they're doing. It's important to be honest, yes, but it's just as important to not be seen as not changing your mind every four or five minutes, and not to be people who rely on having your ass kissed every two seconds.

[Noobert]

No, I have not had a change of heart.

I would have given them the information from the start. It might have been difficult, because Tekki has a lot of friends, but hey, they could have weathered it.

But you know what's more dangerous than a lack of transparency?

Inconsistency.

A mod team which is is seen as weak, and playing to popular feeling at every opportunity, is as bad as one which ignores everybody. Sometimes you do have to make hard decisions. Sometimes you do have to upset people. But you do it. You do it firsthand, and you tell them. My warning to the admin about latently revealing Tekki's identity is that it would portay them as people who pander to public opinion, rather than people who know that they're doing. It's important to be honest, yes, but it's just as important to not be seen as not changing your mind every four or five minutes, and not to be people who rely on having your ass kissed every two seconds.

Stating this now, I have nothing against Tekki. So she doesn't hate me for this but I have to say it.

That's the thing though. People have been fired in the past, same reasons given as now, and nobody made a big stink about it. Not on this scale. The reason it is on such a scale is because of Tekki, and what she did following her removal. You can see by what she has on her MSN "Proof it appears is never required" but has yet to come forward with her own statement. Perhaps the players should be crying for Tekki to tell us the reason why she was removed, rather than the Administrators seeing as she is the reason why this has all happened. You speak of consistency, and yet that's exactly what the Administrators are doing but receive criticism. They have not gone back on what they have posted, but reinforced it by not giving the information.

I've spoken in private, and on MSN with fellow Moderators to get their opinions on this and most simply want nothing to do with this whole business because of the amount of hatred the players are showing towards this team. Would you want to give the information to players who spit at you on every post? Very highly doubt it. Nobody responds well to people who are **Filtered**.

If you do not receive the answer you players are looking for from the Administrators, perhaps, instead of frothing at the mouth like a pack of wild dogs, you should be asking the one who is responsible for this instead.

[killtacular]

You act like Tekki is the only situation we the users are upset about.
Noobert please get real. Tekki was only an example I'm sure I can find 20 other suspect , Hell I have posted 2 other situations I have dealt with the admin just being short with me not giving me the time of the day. Do you know how many others that are bit frustrated on how things are done?

I hate to say it but damn where is Tok'ra when you need him?

[Mordack]

[Would you want to give the information to players who spit at you on every post?

Yes.

Only by explaining to such people, do you connect with them.

I was a moderator for five years. Even when people flamed at me, I never believed in being anything less than transparent with them. That's part of the job, in my opinion. You deal with people you once hated. You deal with people who stole ALL your planets. You deal with people who implied you were homosexual. You deal with people who wished physical harm on you. You read it, and you get on. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be a moderator. End of.

[Noobert]

Yes.

Only by explaining to such people, do you connect with them.

I was a moderator for five years. Even when people flamed at me, I never believed in being anything less than transparent with them. That's part of the job, in my opinion. You deal with people you once hated. You deal with people who stole ALL your planets. You deal with people who implied you were homosexual. You deal with people who wished physical harm on you. You read it, and you get on. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be a moderator. End of.

What you should do, and what you do are two completely different things. It's that simple. People have said what you have said, and done the complete opposite. Besides, most people who have said that now don't even play the game so they do not have to deal with that.

I agree with you, as I always have Mordack because you put a lot of thought into your posts but how can you deal with the entire hate of the community when they do not even attempt to make things better but only complain? They are complaining about the Moderators, using the excuse of what happened to Tekki as the foreground to their "All Moderators are bias or unjust" (generalization) statements. You want to Admins to start being transparent on everything they do? I'd suggest getting players more involved, instead of people sitting quietly until they see something they dislike and then go "OMG, WTH IS THIS. YOU ARE SO BIAS. NEW ADMINS NOW!"

You act like Tekki is the only situation we the users are upset about.
Noobert please get real. Tekki was only an example I'm sure I can find 20 other suspect , Hell I have posted 2 other situations I have dealt with the admin just being short with me not giving me the time of the day. Do you know how many others that are bit frustrated on how things are done?

I hate to say it but damn where is Tok'ra when you need him?

Get real? You should get real for a moment. Why do you think this whole thing started? It's because of what happened to Tekki, and what she did on MSN afterwards more than likely that outraged individuals into raging hard on this forum which lead to others voicing their opinions who barely care for this forum to begin with. Do you think this would have happened if people had not been outraged at what happened to Tekki? Think again.

You posted two examples from what? October, I believe you said? That's a long time ago. People can change, and I believe Zeratul has and always will be one of the nicest Admins on this forum. As I said to Deni, the Admins are balanced out unless you offend them.

Deni - Aggressive.
Earendil - Neutral.
Zeratul - Far to Kind.
(That's not a bad thing)

Tell me though, how many people have actually spoken out in the correct places to do so about how frustrated they are in how things are done? None, or next to none. You want to change this forum? Stop **Filtered** in General, and move your ass over to one of these two places and stop complaining. It's that simple.

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Look at what RoKeT did. How many Moderators have agreed that this is worth a shot in doing? All it took was some **Filtered** effort on the part of a user from this community to put forth an idea, and something is already happening. I'm honestly sick and tired of people crying about how things are done who don't even make an attempt but use the excuse "It won't change anything", so either man up or shut up. It's really honestly that simple because I'm tired of having to say the same things over and over again to people who don't care either way as to what is said.

[lordernest]

Well finally some real discussion.

Well i think in my personal opinion the only person who can calm this whole thing is in reality only one person; JASON himself.

The reasons because certain elements are mostly enraged he is not more involved like he was(Sadly i do not know Jason and i have been playing more than 3 years , only hear whispers of the man.)

The sad fact is also that both "factions" are right in this case because even though this discussion will most likely be a failure, i do feel that sometimes steam must be released or it will build up. I also know that people need more transparency but also more fun in this place, i mean i look here and there and theres i legit no more posts in the Goa'uld/System Lord section not even by the notorious Tok'ras. That used to be fun posting Oh I am the lord of blah blah and my Jaffa will destroy you Shol'va and all that fun but now its like a graveyard.

Yes, the ombudsman needs more powers but lets face it that post will never get it because in essence The Staff whoever they are somehow change their views(usually for the worst and some are better). Also, it does not matter if one of The Staff got kicked because he is replaced by another puppet usually but besides that yes soem of the Mods are cool and even the Admin is cool nowadays. However, i still feel as i hav ebeen observer that even though having feuds made it exciting and fun to come back on and on again it did destroy how new people react to being ingame.

Sadly, the community is now like on invite only; it used to be new players who introduced themselves who find a mentor and just work their way to some rep; now they are abused and massed for resources for the mostly pointless wars that go on these days. That is depressing in it of itself because how do people usually mass the most the former potentials that usually left because of RL or personal issues and now most gamers here are scavengers who seek to reap the rewards from the graves of some great men who left for w/e reason.

You could cay as well that even this may be pointless banter it will continue and pop up again and again and like i said above only one person could have the power to calm the peoples and that is Jason because he is the real power here and he has to some neglected us as he deals with RL but still it is a shame i never even seen one of his posts in the forums or even of an Reintroduction for newer players because i can assure you that perhaps 50% of people even know heard of no tot mention seen/heard from/ or even knew Jason. Yes, i know that will most likely not happen or even be considered but still i felt like saying what me and some people i know mentioned.

Also, if the forums were moved it would lose more than half of people on it already because of general forum laziness. But i think that if Jason reintroduced himself and brought some fresh ideas for the community in general than most of the people would quiet down and be happy he came back and took the reins so to speak. Finally, i like it here and im probably gonna stay because i love this game and the forums because of both bad and good experiences(i'll admit i was rather a rude brash person myself in my earlier days which resulted in my checky game history).

[Noobert]

I like the above post. Now where did I put..ah! Bravo.

[Juliette]

So interesting how we got back to the core values of being a community -more specifically the staff of one- like I, and others, have defended since day one.. accountability, authority, restraint, responsibility and transparency.
A double-edged blade which has my full backing; as we all know. It's just too theoretical. Back when I was ambitious, I wrote a piece on it for the Administration.

[Tekki]

So interesting how we got back to the core values of being a community -more specifically the staff of one- like I, and others, have defended since day one.. accountability, authority, restraint, responsibility and transparency.
A double-edged blade which has my full backing; as we all know. It's just too theoretical. Back when I was ambitious, I wrote a piece on it for the Administration.

OMG... LOL... Juliette... just LOL.... you do remember though that issue with the 'coma' that you lied to 3 or so forums about?

Let's be honest here, there is no transparency, there are no standards that are public. There is only the whim of the admins and the mods. Either you toe the line or you don't, and if you don't, you get fired or ridiculed until you leave.

This forum is not a nice place for anyone who is not in the 'in crowd' and heaven help you if you have an opinion that differs. Let's look at the feelings of those who are/were playing in Purgatory. They, in the end, LEFT the forum entirely because it was such a hostile environment for them. So much for that community.

There is no community. And there will not be until there are standards that are public and there are actual responsibilities and punishments for those admins/moderators who lie to the community.

Moderators should fear the forum users. When the forum users fear the moderators, you know there is something wrong. And there is something very wrong atm.

[Cole]

"You're not entitled to talk because of what you did/said/think xx years ago", if we were to go this path, let's be honest here, almost everyone here would have something that doesn't make them irreproachable. That's of course if we were to do as you do on your post, keep blaming people for past mistakes they apologized many times about.

[Tekki]

Did you even read it Cole?

Where do I say keep blaming people forever? Infact I don't. I say we want and need transparency and process. Something that is not there.

What I find though interesting is that Juliette later applied for a modship without revealing her past. I'm sorry the past does make up a part of the person and should have been revealed at her application. It was not. So there is no transparency in that case either.

I would suggest Cole that you read the entire post, before you start making assumptions.

[Cole]

I've read it, the perg players who received hostility towards them was mostly coming from people in the big alliances who felt they didn't deserve to hold their in game ranks in the top 100 or other things like that, same as the hostility towards the non waring stat builders; snipers; vultures came from the same big alliances. I could name many other artificial categories of players blamed for this or that reason, even though a great part of forum browsers/users like me didn't give a damn about people using perg, being stat building peaceful players, being snipers,...if everyone tdid take same gameplay, this would have been boring as it would have been everyone being a replica more or less done correctly of the other.
People massed the stat builders in the top G&R because they were taking their spots or whatever, and blamed the ones who didn't follow the "one way" to go. But that's not new, it's several years old this behavior.

[Tekki]

Perhaps but in the end the Purgatory people left the community and the forum. Because there was no moderation in their favour, especially when the mods and admins are doing the massing and the disparaging on the forum.

[Kjarkur]

People should be judged for the job they are doing today, not by their actions in the past. In fact, while we can argue back and forth about who should have said what, it does not change the fact it belongs in the past. We make mistakes to deal with them and move on, bringing them up again and again is in nobody's best interest.

What I would like to know, is her past affecting her job here? I do not see how it could.

Let's look at what we can do better in the near future, instead of what could have been done before

We all have big changes in our lives that are more or less a second chance.

-KJ

[Juliette]

"You're not entitled to talk because of what you did/said/think xx years ago", if we were to go this path, let's be honest here, almost everyone here would have something that doesn't make them irreproachable, and therefore most shouldn't point out the limits of this or that thing. That's of course if we were to do as you do on your post, keep blaming people 'eternally' for past mistakes they apologized many times about.

No, her point is valid.

OMG... LOL... Juliette... just LOL.... you do remember though that issue with the 'coma' that you lied to 3 or so forums about?

Yes. Do you remember your mistakes, sweetheart? These things are past. They have no bearing on the current situation.

Let's be honest here, there is no transparency, there are no standards that are public. There is only the whim of the admins and the mods. Either you toe the line or you don't, and if you don't, you get fired or ridiculed until you leave.

A matter of perception, primarily. In the few cases where it is true, we need to work on identifying, isolating, and handling those responsible.

This forum is not a nice place for anyone who is not in the 'in crowd' and heaven help you if you have an opinion that differs. Let's look at the feelings of those who are/were playing in Purgatory. They, in the end, LEFT the forum entirely because it was such a hostile environment for them. So much for that community.

Ah yes, that is a story of pettiness indeed. I agree there.




Edit: Traitor comment was both a low blow and an invalid argument. Removed.