Christians Central

[Come_Forth]

Uzzah - strength, a son of Abinadab, in whose house the men of Kirjath-jearim placed the ark when it was brought back from the land of the Philistines (1 Sam. 7:1). He with his brother Ahio drove the cart on which the ark was placed when David sought to bring it up to Jerusalem. When the oxen stumbled, Uzzah, in direct violation of the divine law (Num. 4:15), put forth his hand to steady the ark, and was immediately smitten unto death.

So do you all think he went to heaven or hell (God is the one who killed him)? The gnostics believed that the God of the OT was a demon, I can understand that. The theology you all posted a few days ago comes mainly from the NT but I do not find love in the OT.

[TheWay]

its called Dispensational theology, the idea that God although unchanging used different economies to deal with his people. The basic break down is this.

the dispensation of innocence (Gen 1:1–3:7), prior to Adam's fall,
of conscience (Gen 3:8–8:22), Adam to Noah,
of government (Gen 9:1–11:32), Noah to Abraham,
of patriarchal rule (Gen 12:1–Exod 19:25), Abraham to Moses,
of the Mosaic Law (Exod 20:1–Acts 2:4), Moses to Christ,
of grace (Acts 2:4–Rev 20:3 – except for Hyperdispensationalists), the current church age, and
of a literal, earthly 1,000-year Millennial Kingdom that has yet to come but soon will (Rev 20:4–20:6).
Each dispensation is said to represent a different way in which God deals with man, often a different test for man. "These periods are marked off in Scripture by some change in God's method of dealing with mankind, in respect to two questions: of sin, and of man's responsibility," explained C.I. Scofield. "Each of the dispensations may be regarded as a new test of the natural man, and each ends in judgment—marking his utter failure in every dispensation." Wikipedia

That should answer the issue of the seeming ddifference in scripture.

As of God killing the man himself. Well this is why you must actually read the whole story m8 before attacking the consequence. Certainly there are a ton people out there who spend time looking for negetives in scripture while not accounting for context and the complete story. If you read the story you will find that the ark was never to be taken or carried in the way that the people choose to. The Ark carried the very presence of God since The holy spirit had not yet been given to man it rested in the Ark and so was a very holy object. As such a holy object there was a correct way to handle it so that it never had the cahnce of falling or even getting unsteady. So you see when you look at the whole story you find that man broke the law and as such this man suffered a punishement. The fault therefore doesnt lay with God but with the men that choose to disobey at there own risk. Like in many case we desire to blame God when actually we are the ones to blame.

That was a great question though i hope I answered it and i encourage you to continue to bring these issues to this post so we can clear them up

[Come_Forth]

Yes, I know what the theory is and I know the background to the the above mentioned story. It would seem that Dispensationalism is really just trying to account for the inconsistincies in God's nature during the Bible. It is only an interpretation, where does God actually approve of this theory in the Bible? I just used that as one example, because God kills people left and right. I was wondering if that meant they are going to hell since God killed them?

[Mojo Rising]

Uzzah - strength, a son of Abinadab, in whose house the men of Kirjath-jearim placed the ark when it was brought back from the land of the Philistines (1 Sam. 7:1). He with his brother Ahio drove the cart on which the ark was placed when David sought to bring it up to Jerusalem. When the oxen stumbled, Uzzah, in direct violation of the divine law (Num. 4:15), put forth his hand to steady the ark, and was immediately smitten unto death.

So do you all think he went to heaven or hell (God is the one who killed him)? The gnostics believed that the God of the OT was a demon, I can understand that. The theology you all posted a few days ago comes mainly from the NT but I do not find love in the OT.

I can't begin to know whether he went to Heaven or Hell, because I don't know what his relationship with God was. God did NOT kill Uzzah; Uzzah's disobedience of God's law killed Uzzah. Let me give you a hypothetical situation that is analagous to this situation and is not based in the spiritual realm so that you may more easily understand. The commanding officer of an Army base orders a highly electrified fence to be placed around the perimeter of the base. Everyone on base is ordered not to touch the fence because, if they do, it will kill them. One night, during guard duty, a storm blows up with high winds and a section of the fence is looking like it might blow down so one of the guards reaches out to shore it up and is instantly killed. Did the commanding officer of the base kill that man? No. The man's disobedience of his superior's orders killed that man.

And, I must say that I find it quite ironic that you are using the words of a book that you DON'T believe in to find arguments that there is not a loving God. I will grant you that you can find dozens of examples much like the one you posted above that, if you presuppose that you can understand the mind of God (which is what you are doing), you can say, "How are these the actions of a just and loving God?" The Bible is meant for instruction, not for use as a weapon. I have demonstrated how and why I believe that my God is a just and loving God and I have given you any number of passages to contemplate and to instruct and to explain my beliefs. Why is it that you seek to try and tear me (and all other believers) down?

You say that everything that has occurred can be explained away with science and that which cannot be hasn't been discovered yet. So it is OK for science to say "I don't know" to answer fundamental questions about the universe, but Christians are supposed to have all the answers? Well, let me clue you in; we don't. We are just as imperfect as the scientists who don't know the answers to everything. What we do have is a faith that the answers will one day be revealed to us (if it is God's will for us to know them).

Please reread some of my earlier posts (and the earlier posts of others) and try to read them with an open mind and an open heart. I do not wish this to devolve into some argument about whether or not God is loving and just. You don't even believe He exists and I accept that. Please accept that I believe He is loving and just.

[Come_Forth]

Why do I attack God by using the Bible? The answer is fairly obvious, it is impossible to prove that God does not exist, just as I cannot prove that Thor does not exist, what I can do is attack the nature of this God that is put forward by the Bible. Why do I attack the Bible? I believe it is false and that is reason enough, the best we can do is pretend to have answers about the afterlife etc. I just posted today because it was my turn, and I did not want to be rude and ignore the posts. I guess I should go make a Atheists' Central thread

[Fear Of The Duck]

hmm... Bible as the greatest prank in history..?? interesting theory
seriously: Jesus attacked pharisees cos they got the God's Word wrong. how can i be sure the priests of today got it right?

why attack the Bible? to make us read it and try to understand it better in order to repel the attacks.

the truth: God doesn't have to be logical. He's not limited by the laws of logic, paradoxes are possible for Him (that's why we'll never be able to understand Him).



side note:

Uzzah - strength

tnx for explaining why chargin' soldiers always yell that.

[TheWay]

Come_Forth, I very much welcome an Atheists' Central thread. That would be great to have so we could eneter into a fair and open dialogue. I welcome your questions and your doubts. Questions and doubts are not be feared but rather to be welcomed and confronted with truth.

I answered your questions with valid points then you responded to those points by arbitrarily rejecting them. The idea that God worked with man in differents ways throughout time is a valid point please dont dismiss it without merit or reason. Theology takes the ideas in scripture and systematically orders them, so they may then be studied. So the fact that any theological statement isnt named in scripture doesnt take away its validity. Your question of God's nature was also answered twice and answered well each time, once in a very theological way and then next a very down to earth way (Awesome explanation by the way Mojo). In all I am just saying that if you want to question things in our faith that is fine but please be open to our answers. I am willing to openly address anything you wish to and I will do my best to never write off your issues I will either say you got me I dont know or I will give your issue correct attaention and answer it with a valid responce. Come_Forth you strike me as a very intellegent person and I enjoy our dialogue even if at times I seem confrontational, dont be alarmed it is simply the nature of the debate to be some what confrontational.

Also if science is the answer please explain to me how you can account for the lack of evidence in theory of Macro Evolution. Namely these issues

The origin of life
The origin of protein…the odds against a simple protein forming by chance are 100 to the 160th power to 1. The simplest organism requires at least 100 different kinds of protein molecules to live and reproduce!
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy): universal tendency towards greater randomness. (disorder) This law has never been violated.
The origin of one celled organisms. (Protozoa) There are over 30,000 types with vastly different structures and systems. Common ancestry even of these is impossible.
The gap between protozoa and metazoa (many celled animals) is huge, and no transitional forms exist. The simplest metazoa have thousands of cells.
No intermediate or "transitional" forms exist. (No "missing links") The oldest bat is a fully formed bat, etc.etc.
Unbridged gaps between body structures. (Reptiles-amphibians, invertabrates-vertabrates, mammal-cetacean, etc.)
Sudden appearance of fossils. Pre-Cambrian fossils are non-existent, while the Cambrian period has a host of complex fossils!
Sudden appearance of flowering plants.
Origin of birds & the origin of flight. (Insects fly, birds fly, and bats fly!)
The number of chromosomes does not increase with complexity.
The necessity of perfection in both plants and animals for cross-pollination. (Survival of either impossible without perfection)
The necessity of complete and perfect instincts. (Job 38 & 39)
Reproduction: the sex mechanics had to be completely functional and accompanied by contact/desire!
Irreducible complexity! Per Darwin’s Black Box, by Michael Behe

and

1. ORIGINS -the chance of life originating from inorganic chemical elements by natural means is beyond the realm of possibility (Hoyle )

2. DEVELOPMENT -to produce a new organism from an existing life-form requires alterations in the genetic material which are lethal to the organism (Maddox )

3. STASIS -enzymes in the cell nucleus repair errors in the DNA (Barton )

4. GEOLOGIC COLUMN -out-of-place artifacts have been found in earth's sedimentary layers which disrupt the supposed evolutionary order (Corliss )

5. DESIGN -irreducible complexity within the structure of the cell requires design (Denton, Behe ).


(DNA REPAIR: The genome is reproduced very faithfully and there are enzymes

which repair the DNA, where errors have been made or when the DNA is

damaged. - D.H.R. Barton, Professor of Chemistry, Texas A&M University,

Nobel Prize for Chemistry )


(CHANGE WITHIN GENETIC BOUNDARIES: Microevolution does not lead beyond the confines of the species, and the typical products of microevolution,

the geographic races, are not incipient species. There is no such category as

incipient species. Richard B. Goldschmidt )


(MUTATION ACCUMULATIONS RELENTLESSLY FATAL: Any random change

in a complex, specific, functioning system wrecks that system. And living things

are the most complex functioning systems in the universe.Science has now

quantitated that a genetic mutation of as little as 1 billionth (0.0000001%) of an

animal's genome is relentlessly fatal.The genetic difference between human and

his nearest relative, the chimpanzee, is at least 1.6% Calculated out that is a

gap of at least 48 million nucleotide differences that must be bridged by random

changes. And a random change of only 3 nucleotides is fatal to an animal.


This is all I could find in a limited amount of time but there is much more out there but I figure these should keep u sufficiently busy

[Mojo Rising]

Why do I attack God by using the Bible? The answer is fairly obvious, it is impossible to prove that God does not exist, just as I cannot prove that Thor does not exist, what I can do is attack the nature of this God that is put forward by the Bible. Why do I attack the Bible? I believe it is false and that is reason enough, the best we can do is pretend to have answers about the afterlife etc. I just posted today because it was my turn, and I did not want to be rude and ignore the posts. I guess I should go make a Atheists' Central thread

But why attack a person you do not even believe exists? That is what I am not understanding. Do you feel "attacked" by the posts of the Christians on this board? I do not believe that anyone has posted anything that even remotely sounds like an attack. We are merely offering our opinions on the questions that you pose. But if you have already formulated your opinion of God and the Bible, why do you persist in positing questions to which you have already answered in your own heart, knowing that nothing we can say will change your mind?

You purport that God does not exist; yet you insist that He has killed thousands of people for no apparent reason. That is like me saying that Santa Claus does not exist but he has brought me 1000s of presents on Christmas morning. Either you believe He exists and you don't understand His nature or you don't believe He exists and are just trying to get a rise out of people by taking verses out of context, interpreting them as if you know the mind of the God that you do not believe exists, and hoping someone takes the bait.

This thread was opened to discuss issues of Christianity, not attack God. Healthy debate is one thing but you have just admitted that you are attacking God because you believe The Bible to be false. I don't begrudge your assumption that The Bible is false; everyone is entitled to their opinion. We now know yours. Let's just agree to disagree on this particular point and move on. You said it yourself, no one can prove or disprove the existence of God; it is a matter of faith. So let's not belabor the point.

[TheWay]

Can all of you please pray for my Mom she is going to be having serious back sergery at the end of this month and it is very dangerous. Also pray for me as well please because I will be going up there for a week maybe longer to take care of her after the surgery, and I will be without my wife so it will be realy tough.

Thanks all

[Fear Of The Duck]

sure! i'm with ya! i hope everything will turn out all right.

[Solus]

Can all of you please pray for my Mom she is going to be having serious back sergery at the end of this month and it is very dangerous. Also pray for me as well please because I will be going up there for a week maybe longer to take care of her after the surgery, and I will be without my wife so it will be realy tough.

Thanks all

Absolutely man. its the least I can do. i know im not a regular in this thread, but hey that doesnt matter. you guys had no problem with praying for me and my troubles on multiple occasions, of course ill pray for you.

on another note, im not sure how relevant it is to you weapon zero, but I find that music has some ability to minister to me when I need it most. I was listening to P.O.D's latest album when i came across 'goodbye for now'. for those who dont know, the lead singer 'Sonny' had large issues in his life, his mother died while he was doing his final year of high school... about the same age as me i think. anyway, he has shown that he has a clear heart for god, and amongst the sorrow, god used him in life and thus songs like goodbye for now were written.

I make reference to this, not because of death or anything, far from it... its just that i was also listening to a song by thrice today and part of the lyrics say "i know one day, all our scars will disappear, like the stars at dawn, all of our pain will fade away when morning comes. and on that day, we'll look backwards we will see, everything's changed, all of our trials will be as milestones on the way."

comparing the last section of this with the POD song, i feel that despite whatever the situation, I know i can turn to him and I know that everything will be okay, and he will help me through these tough times. im sorry if i seem 'super spirro' but its been on my heart for the past few hours, I thought this would be the best place to share it.

weaponzero, thanks for your prayers in the past, but hey, we christian brothers and sisters have the same goal in mind, and when it says in the bible, (i dont know where) that when two or more are gathered in his name he is there, i dont beleive it just means physically. i know corran and I are praying for you, thus unison in spirit, praying together despite the lack of physical communication.

[TheWay]

thanks all for the prayers and Soulless your post reminded me of something many may not have relised and that is that when we die we will be given new perfect bodies like Jesus that dont have any scars perfect bodies completely perfect. Heres the kicker though Christ will have scars in his wrists, around his head, in his feet, and around his head. What I am saying is that God himself (the person of Jesus) will for eternity carry the scars we should have that being the scars from the cross. For eternity we will be able to see the price he paid for us a price he will carry forever

[semper]

omg..im actually having to bite my hand to the point of bleeding to keep control when reading this thread. Im sorry, I respect men with beliefs, but by God that dosent mean it cant be entertaining.

....I can stop biting my hand now.

[Solus]

thanks all for the prayers and Soulless your post reminded me of something many may not have relised...

well i hope at least some of what i said was of use

[Fear Of The Duck]

well.. lads.. can i ask for some moral support?
i have a difficult interview for a job i really want on wed.