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Faith and/or religion is not what created society!

Social groupings and therfore a society was formed long before we learned how to talk, these groups were based on a mutual need for protection / food / water / resources. Faith had no part in it.

Another reason for the forming of social groupings & therfore society at large is that without interaction with other members of your species you tend to go a lil strange, this phenomenon has been observed in animals as well not just humans. Animals who have been excluded from a social group for a long period time find it very hard to adjust to living in a group again, some dont ever readjust and live out their lives alone.

urogard wrote:Let's use occams razor:

1) Some random bloke creates a whole universe leaving no proof whatsoever of his own existance but on the contrary many indications of how stuff came about without him being any part of the equation.

2) there is no such random bloke but people just created him in their minds for various reasons (sadness, greed, power, ignorance)

Yeh, that's a hard one

Whom is this bloke you speak of?

Kit-Fox wrote:Social groupings and therfore a society was formed long before we learned how to talk, these groups were based on a mutual need for protection / food / water / resources. Faith had no part in it.

When man was created he could speak.

No early man could vocalise sounds, he couldnt talk.

remains found of such early ancestors provides us with the data we need to make this conclusion, the voicebox simply wasnt developed enough to make the sounds needed for coherent speech such as you or I are capable of.

kit-fox i do believe you are wasting your time trying to prove any point to them. they will not listen to anything other than the bible.

n3M351s wrote:When man was created he could speak.

And when the church said the earth is the center of the universe, that was the inifite truth too.

oh yeah i nearly forgot, it was just a bunch of lies. And it's not important that until the church stopped at least this spread of lies, that tons of people got burned and killed whilst being called heretics and blasphemers.

LiQuiD wrote:kit-fox i do believe you are wasting your time trying to prove any point to them. they will not listen to anything other than the bible.

I certainly hope not. Part of the founding morals of this section is to debate and discuss.

The bible has little place here, it is unfounded truth, ignorance at its height. The very thing is a massive contradiction, ask any great scientist or philosopher or intelligent person.

However, just because the bible is a pile of pigs wallop does not mean God does not exist...

(NOTE: I hope anyone knows, that if they take part in a official judged debate, the bible is not a valid source, unless you are debating something from it. IE Jesus performing miracles, fact of fiction? Metaphor? You would use the bible to list the so called miracles he performed...but you would not use the bible as a valid counter argument to evolution.)

urogard wrote:

n3M351s wrote:When man was created he could speak.

And when the church said the earth is the center of the universe, that was the inifite truth too.

How should I know if the Earth is the center of the universe?

However according to Humphreys Model it is.

urogard wrote:oh yeah i nearly forgot, it was just a bunch of lies. And it's not important that until the church stopped at least this spread of lies, that tons of people got burned and killed whilst being called heretics and blasphemers.

I don't know why you keep bringing this up. It is not relevant to this debate. Not that I've heard of them burning and killing heretics and blasphemers anyway so I can't answer what your saying.

Semper wrote:The bible has little place here, it is unfounded truth, ignorance at its height. The very thing is a massive contradiction, ask any great scientist or philosopher or intelligent person.

Great scientists, philosophers and "intelligent person" would be ignorant to take the Bible as total unfounded truth. The people and places in the Bible did and do exist, there are other references non related to the Bible that verify these people and other happenings from the Bible. The Bible should be taken as History, however the Religion is the faith in God. You can deny that Jesus never rose from the dead, but that is your belief, and there's no reason why that should stop anyone else from believing what they want to. In this day and age many people seem deface and disregard Religion. Its your own choice, if you don't want to believe it then don't, but don't stop those that want to believe it from doing so.

Semper wrote:However, just because the bible is a pile of pigs wallop does not mean God does not exist...

I could say the same about your post.

n3M351s wrote:

urogard wrote:oh yeah i nearly forgot, it was just a bunch of lies. And it's not important that until the church stopped at least this spread of lies, that tons of people got burned and killed whilst being called heretics and blasphemers.

I don't know why you keep bringing this up. It is not relevant to this debate. Not that I've heard of them burning and killing heretics and blasphemers anyway so I can't answer what your saying.

You also deny the existance of the great inquisition?

n3M351s wrote:

Semper wrote:The bible has little place here, it is unfounded truth, ignorance at its height. The very thing is a massive contradiction, ask any great scientist or philosopher or intelligent person.

Great scientists, philosophers and "intelligent person" would be ignorant to take the Bible as total unfounded truth. The people and places in the Bible did and do exist, there are other references non related to the Bible that verify these people and other happenings from the Bible. The Bible should be taken as History, however the Religion is the faith in God. You can deny that Jesus never rose from the dead, but that is your belief, and there's no reason why that should stop anyone else from believing what they want to. In this day and age many people seem deface and disregard Religion. Its your own choice, if you don't want to believe it then don't, but don't stop those that want to believe it from doing so.

Semper wrote:However, just because the bible is a pile of pigs wallop does not mean God does not exist...

I could say the same about your post.

oh..bad move...
Your presuming too much! I did not say 'total' unfounded truth, nor did I say you cannot believe what you want to believe. In fact the mere fact I then went on to say you can have God without the bible should show that...

You can say the same about my post, however you would be wrong.

Right..lets get down to business then. As I seem to have bumped into someone who cannot see the folly of their ways...

The bible, a 2000 year old book. A 'history' of ONE religion. From a certain point of view, a history of fictional (factual) events, as too are the writings of the Buddha? Yahweh? (Yahweh vs God?) Hold the phone..don't more people with the ability to voice their opinions on a larger scale (now and throughout time..) believe in the catholic and Christian era of faith? I can see some...parallels here, if you will but read...lets look at...word of mouth! One of the biggest tools in business for advertisement, and a common feature in human psychology. Lets say, I heard the other day that this amazing new song had come out. Already I am dis positioned to think its going to at least be good because I have been told by someone I truth that it is, in their opinion, and they themselves will have been told by someone else, or heard it on the radio that its great or maybe even seen it in the top spot on the charts. All of a sudden its gets around and around..and before you know it, we have bleeding love by Leona Lewis, fist female artist to top the US charts in 20years, and selling 4million singles world wide. She now has a massive fan base, that copy her, that adopt the same ideals as her and general ways of life, if they can.

Lets add to this now...Jesus. A guy who performs miracles, but on top of the word of mouth, lets add the rules of Chinease whispers into it. To rhetorically evaluate his miracles. Blind man able to see? Hmmm.... walking across the ocean? Returning from the dead? All, potentially very clever metaphors to sell the ideas he was preaching, used in word of mouth to create support and wonder. I mean why not? Just because it was 2000 years ago does not mean everyone was a stupid tit unable to understand the basic human character...

lets..continue down a similar road...but slightly off the point. Lets take a look at modern day religion. The bible, the faith preaches to us, not to kill...not to hop on the bad foot and do the good thing with any member of the same sex...not to steal... ok. So how do you explain to me, why now many many many followers of Christianity and the catholic faith have adopted abortion, and accepted homosexuals in the church or in their lives or by bloody god! As priest's! But here is the funny part...does it not also say in the same book...to accept others..or tolerate and love all. It seems very contradictory to me...one minute there are all these wonderful rules...that we should not break, yet only a few hundred pages (if that) down the line, we're being told to accept everything and everyone, and just let them break the rules of the book, we like to try and preach to other people as being right and a great guide to leading lives.

Its amazing how this great tolerance too, has jumped up into the fray in only recent years, when people have started to break out of the shackles of religion and question the bible. All of a sudden, the church becomes more accepting to keep or get new members. I think I smell a wonderful pile of BS tbh On top of that, lets not forget the wonderful history of the church, with its very active role in war, the general day to day demeaning of the peasants...just adds to it all to me. Yeah you can say, human faults, but then...who wrote the bible again and in what time periods? Do remind me...

Right, lets move further on...into the bible..the basis for religion, or at least the one all the bible sheep in here are trying to defend.. God. Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omni benevolent, Omnipresent, PERFECT, infinite, infallible. Wait a tick... this perfect infinite being has finite attributes! WHAT! No way! How can God be male? Men are not perfect, the male gender is not perfect we cannot produce by ourselves, we generally are more aggressive and irresponsible..fact... Yet God is male, masculine...
God, has existed, if only temporarily in a finite world? A finite existent... how can a perfect, infallible being become less than what it is? How can it be perceived, comprehended by the finite? To do so, surely it would have to make itself less than such... (ok..so how do I know we are not perfect..well..many animals out there can see, smell, hear and exist in far more better ways than humans can...) But..the Bible says God can do all this! It contradicts itself...again! OH NO! WHAT IS THE BIBLE GOING TO DO! Lets work under the assumption then, for a brief second of complete and utter brainless humour. That God CAN break the boundaries of logic, physics, nature and the meaning or nature of its very existence. Why did 'he' allow Hitler to do what he did, why has he allowed all the pain and suffering to occur if this God is perfectly good? How can it tolerate such negative acts and monumental breaking of the laws he dictated to moses so long ago. Thats not the act of a perfectly good God....testing humans or not...

lets keep a long these lines now shall we...God can see everything. It knows what is going to happen, its knows how it is going to happen, it can stop anything and it has a plan for all of us. Yet it has also provided us with free will. If we embrace God, its rules and follow its plan, letting the lord work in mysterious ways we go to heaven. If we do not, and we sin, we go to hell...however God is also perfectly good and ultimately forgiving. Sorry....Just looks like a lot of convenient answers thrown together in a time where no one could openly question them.

If ALL this can be doubted about the bible, and the religion you follow then how the hell can you still follow it, and its codes? There is common sense, and there is this. yes, you can claim faith and by joave I would encourage you to have faith in a GOD, but this faith in religion is illogical, and frankly brain dead. Carl Marx said it was a method to control the masses, I would agree that it evolved to that once it had been used as an escape from fear of death, fear of the unknown. These days, religion is this debacle that does not seem to know whether it is coming or going, too easily questioned with logic and intelligence and influenced, like all things, by herd morality. (I add its basic ideas may help a lot of people, and for that reason I would never have it removed if I had the choice..)

Religion NEEDS God. God does NOT NEED religion. You can believe in God and lead a whole, honest and 'good' life without religion using common sense and a good head. If you want to question me on that, lets say you think God and religion are the same thing or they need each other, then your talking out of your own backside I am afraid to say, because your belittling your God by saying it needs a finite idea for it to be relevant.

I believe I can rest my case, I most likely will not have made you see sense, but alas the hard liners, you never do...because of their own inability to comprehend critical thought. This is just the tip of the spear for arguments against religion though.

I have also taken note of Liquids previous post, and will make sure to keep my eye on him. He will edit out the swear words, but is on his last warning in this section of the forums due to his reluctance to apologize for it. As for calling you stupid, nothing wrong with that, if you cannot take things with a pinch of salt you do not belong in this section. (In other words, one more strike and your out Liquid..)

~Semper

(EDIT: Uruguard furthers my points by demonstrating more things that have come about due to the Bible and religion. More negative things... witch hunts anyone?)

As per request I am here to answer some of the statements or questions lobbied in this post but to save my sanity I will not address each person directly but rather I will address the idea or question presented to the best of my ability

Crusades. An honest study of the Crusades would show anybody who is being realistic that the crusades where neither about religion nor about Christianity but rather where about land and greed. Those that perpetrated this great travesty used religion as a tool to their own evil ends. This is not the first nor the last time this has been done. Hitler also used religion as a tool for his own gains, are you then going to blame Christians for the holocaust? There is nothing in scripture that supports what happened during these times. You may not agree with Christianity but please do not insult our beliefs by lumping us in with the indecency of vial acts. Now you can site times when people did evil things in the name of the church but frankly it is a bad argument because if someone goes out kills in your name you wouldn’t be held responsible since nothing you do supports that behavior and in the same way Christianity does not support many of the atrocities committed in its name, even to this day.

Age of the earth geological formations. I for one believe that the current geological formations where not created through millions of years of erosion but rather in one catastrophic even namely a worldwide flood. I make this assertion based on a large degree of evidence so let me just explain some of that evidence.
1. Fossils are created by immense pressure which is easily explained by a worldwide flood which would direct immense pressure and all the other needed materials to fossilize many species of life.
There are two great examples of evidence for a worldwide flood.
1. The Grand canyon which has some great unexplainable occurrences namely the upside down fossilized trees. These trees cannot be explained by scientist because by all means of dating they are different ages at different points in their trunk meaning they do not lie flat across a strata of dirt but rather they exist vertically through many strata’s and hence are existing in many different ages at the same time. This occurrence is easily explained by a flood which would hold enough pressure and heat to carve through the Grand Canyon lifting the trees roots first floating on the top of the water and then redeposited by the tide into the ground some roots up vertically. This is further supported by my next example.
2. Mount Saint Helens which is smaller scale example of the Grand Canyon gives a detailed account of what a flood would do to the landscape of the earth and how it would do it. Now I could try to explain exactly what happened but then this post would be a paper so I request you look up what happened at Mount Saint Helens on your own. Please look at both sides of the argument and if able just look at some pictures and try to be non biased.

Christianity is a cult. You should study the definition of a cult and also understand that no scholars religious or not would classify Christianity as a cult. When I say study I mean go beyond the wiki definition and for that matter beyond the written and vague definitions to the heart of the term.

Where in the bible does it say I am not a God? Ephesians 2:10, shows we are his workmanship, John 1:1-5, Christ is the creator and gave life to man. The beginning of the book of Hebrews gives a clear testimony of the hierarchy God, Angels, Man. You can look at Genesis which also shows creation. Geez the entirety of the Bible says we are not God.

Never ever quote wiki in a intelligent debate lol, The phrase that Christianity isn’t a religion is generally referring to the fact that following any given precepts will not gain you entrance to this religions after life but rather it requires more than religion and that is a relationship with God through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ who died a subsitutionary death for all.
Denial of the Flood
Deny the flood all you want there are immense ecological evidences and countless ancient accords of a global flood from many different cultures dating back thousands of years.

The argument about the nuclear power. The dating of radioactive substances requires a known and traceable beginning that is provable. In order to use this process you must assume that all things where the same which many scientist today are very uncomfortable with especially since they believe in evolution which shows the earth would have been very very different at the time when it was created. This process and all others for dating the earth ultimately run into the same problem and that is that we have no idea what it was lie in the beginning and to apply today’s standards to that time especially if you believe the earth to be billions or millions of years old is ridiculous at best. We know there are tons of things that can much up both carbon dating and radioactive dating so I think it best for you to argue something else.

The argument that superman is as real as God is a great argument but it works in a Christians favor. You might say how is this? It is simple read Descartes who explains that a unicorn although it is myth exists in that, the parts of the unicorn exist and so we can extrapolate from other existing life ideas and objects to create this mythical being. So superman in the same way has attributes that we can see in other things although his attributes are enhanced, in reality superman does not contain any attributes that man does not contain at some degree whether through science or simple physical properties. In the same way though the attributes of God which are not contained in any living thing must be accounted for and so there must be something that exhibits these attributes. The very idea of Omni presence (existing everywhere at once existing outside time and space) Omniscient (knowing all, everything) or any of the other Omni’s, would point to the required existence of God in some facet (I must point out this argument does not prove the Christian God but rather that there is a god of some sort or something containing these ideas otherwise where did the ideas come from). Now I implore you to think on this and read Descartes because you may immediately think this is crazy but I assure you it is a sound argument and I wouldn’t want you simply sounding off from ignorance.
Christianity is primitive and barbaric. This argument is absolutely a lie and completely untrue, why don’t you go look up some facts before saying things that are clear falsehoods it is disrespectful to those who believe for you to be so lazy in your arguments. If you study the history of the world you will find that everywhere the gospel has gone that rights for all people including women and children have increased and education has immensely increased. Now you can site times when people did evil things in the name of the church but I already addressed that and frankly it is a bad argument because if someone goes out kills in your name you wouldn’t be held responsible since nothing you do supports that behavior and in the same way Christianity does not support many of the atrocities committed in its name. I have no doubt someone will bring the old testament now and I welcome it, as any time we discuss actual scripture which is a double edged sword piercing through bone and marrow to the deepest dividing soul, I am doing my part to bring the changing power of scripture to these forums

The Jewish God is different than the Christian one because the Old Testament God is mean and the New Testament God is not. This is also not true in reality Christianity recognizes that can never changes and is the same yesterday today and tomorrow which is why we can trust him. Although God may seem to be different, if you study the scriptures you will find that he is not and in actuality he has never changed although we believe in the theological view of dispensation which shows God functioning in different economies (A dispensation is a period of time which is identified by its relation to some particular purpose of God.) and he does so to show that no matter what we are under we will fail and we need God to be saved. The different dispensations are as follows –
1. The Age of Innocence, from the creation of Adam and Eve until they fell into sin.

2. The Age of Conscience, from the fall into sin to Noah's flood.

3. The Age of Human Government, from Noah to Abraham.

4. The Age of Promise, from Abraham to Moses.

5. The Age of Law, from Moses to Christ.

6. The Age of Grace, from the death of Christ to the rapture of the Church.

7. The Age of Christ, His personal 1000 year reign, yet future.

you say 'Without faith, there would be no society.' there would still be society, even if different from the one we have today. This is laughable since it requires a degree of faith to even function in the world. For instance before you sat in your desk chair or whatever you sat on to type your silly and illogical statement you made a leap of faith. I would venture to believe that you did not check the stability of your chair before you sat and that when you sit anywhere in general that you do not check to see if the chair is actually safe to sit in. Apply this process out to a million things you do each day that require a degree of faith and you will see my point. To deny God is one thing to deny the existence of faith is ludicrous.

The age of the earth. Please show me the evidence for the age of the earth since no scientist agree on this. I thought you had made the argument earlier that saying things that aren’t true is a lie.

Occam's Razor
The most useful statement of the principle for scientists is
"when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better."
1. We are intelligent beings that are very complex.
2. Complexity and intelligence points to a creator
3. We were created
Now in all honesty Occam’s razor doesn’t sufficiently make a point either way since the simplest of answer is debatable. But it is certainly simpler to believe in an intelligent creator then to make the leaps required to believe we where a genetic accident. Case in point if you where to walk into a junk yard and see a fully built and functioning 747 you would not begin a process of trying to explain how this plane accidentally was created by chance. Instead you would draw the logical conclusion that this plane given its complexity must have a complex and intelligent creator.
Now see that was simple
Society and Christianities role in it. There is no doubt society can be created without Christianity and so I see no reason to argue this point however I do disagree with how some may think societies formed but that is a different debate.

The bible is not a valid source. First off let me say if that is truly the rules of your debate then your official debates are a joke and would not be accepted in any university anywhere. The bible and has been an accepted source for both history and philosophy for generations, it has come under more scrutiny than any other book in history and has stood the test of time. Now ether you disagree with the Meta-Narrative of scripture or the conclusions it makes does not deny its accepted validity. I had no idea this was a rule of the forum and as such I challenge that rule and require you show some reason for your bold and inflammatory statements. I also request you be removed as a mod for this forum based on using your presuppositional views to unfairly tip the debate in your favor. I have a great deal of respect for you and I am confused by this post I have read written by you I expected more from you then this. I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised given the leanings of most in this game. I am surprised by you Semper I really am. Semper I am adding this in at the end because I am not sure how my statements towards you will be taken and I want you to know although I am upset and I have called for your removable as mod I am not unwilling to readdress this belief if we can come to some common ground. I am sure for most intents and purposes you are a great mod and are clearly intelligent so I hope this can be resolved

edit sorry for the double post but because of the length of my last post it kept doing that shoot me back to the top thing when I tried to write anything which became unbearable so I started another post

I also just thought of this.

By closing the debate to the validty of scripture you ruin debates because I love when someone quotes Wiki cause then i can rip them a new one by showing that wiki is not a valid source. Of course I must prove why this is so which I have in other posts. In the same way why limit the debate please allow people to use scripture as source material and then allow the other person to call this material into debate based on its validity. We cannot just throw out sources instead we should allow the debaters to make their case. I mean normally I would disgree with experiance being a valid argument or source material but in many many famous debates including most on civil rights this was a great strategy.

I also think I would rather just discuss this rule rather then call for Sempers resignation, I think my words may have been a tad quick and hasty, but I will leave them there to show I to say things out of passion sometimes.

Semper wrote:(EDIT: Uruguard furthers my points by demonstrating more things that have come about due to the Bible and religion. More negative things... witch hunts anyone?)

PS: it's urogard, no second u and an o after the r

and the bible itself is only 1700 years old at best, look it up

Epic post Semper.

Semper wrote:The bible, the faith preaches to us, not to kill...not to hop on the bad foot and do the good thing with any member of the same sex...not to steal... ok. So how do you explain to me, why now many many many followers of Christianity and the catholic faith have adopted abortion, and accepted homosexuals in the church or in their lives or by bloody god! As priest's! But here is the funny part...does it not also say in the same book...to accept others..or tolerate and love all. It seems very contradictory to me...one minute there are all these wonderful rules...that we should not break, yet only a few hundred pages (if that) down the line, we're being told to accept everything and everyone, and just let them break the rules of the book, we like to try and preach to other people as being right and a great guide to leading lives.

I cannot answer that question as I am not Catholic. I am strongly against abortion and homosexuality and I can't understand why the Catholic Church would adopt such things. I know what your saying and its a hard question to answer. Though the actions of a person may be wrong, they still deserve to be accepted. Its only when they are accepted that they can see the error of their ways and take the steps to make it right. Still in my view: abortion = murder and homosexuality = wrong.

Semper wrote:Its amazing how this great tolerance too, has jumped up into the fray in only recent years, when people have started to break out of the shackles of religion and question the bible. All of a sudden, the church becomes more accepting to keep or get new members. I think I smell a wonderful pile of BS tbh On top of that, lets not forget the wonderful history of the church, with its very active role in war, the general day to day demeaning of the peasants...just adds to it all to me. Yeah you can say, human faults, but then...who wrote the bible again and in what time periods? Do remind me...

I have noticed that too, the Catholic Church is loosing members faster than any other church, in Australia at least and also throughout the world. However opposed to that other churches have grown enormously. It does seem that the Pope allowed these new changed to "keep with the times" to allow more freedom to keep members from leaving and to allow new members to join. Most of the events of the last millennium you mentioned were directed by the Pope. I wasn't there at the time but the Pope could have been acting on his own jurisdiction, its not the first time its happened. I'm not making excuses for him though. Again, I may have this all wrong, I'm no Catholic.

Semper wrote:Right, lets move further on...into the bible..the basis for religion, or at least the one all the bible sheep in here are trying to defend.. God. Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omni benevolent, Omnipresent, PERFECT, infinite, infallible. Wait a tick... this perfect infinite being has finite attributes! WHAT! No way! How can God be male? Men are not perfect, the male gender is not perfect we cannot produce by ourselves, we generally are more aggressive and irresponsible..fact... Yet God is male, masculine...

I've never thought about that before. Though I came to the conclusion that I do not think that God is either male or female but a divine being; a force that can take any form. He may take the attributes of man to associate with humans, that doesn't make him a human whom are not perfect.

Semper wrote:God, has existed, if only temporarily in a finite world? A finite existent... how can a perfect, infallible being become less than what it is? How can it be perceived, comprehended by the finite? To do so, surely it would have to make itself less than such... (ok..so how do I know we are not perfect..well..many animals out there can see, smell, hear and exist in far more better ways than humans can...) But..the Bible says God can do all this! It contradicts itself...again! OH NO! WHAT IS THE BIBLE GOING TO DO! Lets work under the assumption then, for a brief second of complete and utter brainless humour. That God CAN break the boundaries of logic, physics, nature and the meaning or nature of its very existence. Why did 'he' allow Hitler to do what he did, why has he allowed all the pain and suffering to occur if this God is perfectly good? How can it tolerate such negative acts and monumental breaking of the laws he dictated to moses so long ago. Thats not the act of a perfectly good God....testing humans or not...

God cannot be expected to step in and stop the heinous actions of this world. Pain and suffering came into the world after the fall of man. Man was his own demise and is his own greatest enemy. What happens to man was and is his own doing, not the act of God.

Semper wrote:lets keep a long these lines now shall we...God can see everything. It knows what is going to happen, its knows how it is going to happen, it can stop anything and it has a plan for all of us. Yet it has also provided us with free will. If we embrace God, its rules and follow its plan, letting the lord work in mysterious ways we go to heaven. If we do not, and we sin, we go to hell...however God is also perfectly good and ultimately forgiving. Sorry....Just looks like a lot of convenient answers thrown together in a time where no one could openly question them.

God has the attributes of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. And yes human have free will and have total control over their lives. Human minds are built on logic and cannot comprehend that God is not restricted by time.

Semper wrote:If ALL this can be doubted about the bible, and the religion you follow then how the hell can you still follow it, and its codes? There is common sense, and there is this. yes, you can claim faith and by joave I would encourage you to have faith in a GOD, but this faith in religion is illogical, and frankly brain dead. Carl Marx said it was a method to control the masses, I would agree that it evolved to that once it had been used as an escape from fear of death, fear of the unknown. These days, religion is this debacle that does not seem to know whether it is coming or going, too easily questioned with logic and intelligence and influenced, like all things, by herd morality. (I add its basic ideas may help a lot of people, and for that reason I would never have it removed if I had the choice..)

There is an answer for every question, whether you choose to believe it is another thing entirely.

Semper wrote:I believe I can rest my case, I most likely will not have made you see sense, but alas the hard liners, you never do...because of their own inability to comprehend critical thought. This is just the tip of the spear for arguments against religion though.

I've mentioned this a few times but no one seems to be taking notice. If you come to know the Lord, repent for a life of sin and accept Jesus as your Saviour, you will have NO DOUBT in your mind whatsoever that God is real. Faith comes before salvation.

Good job though Semper, you bought some new points to the table and raised the opposing side of the argument from a low level indeed.

Nemesis, if you are right about god then it means we're all as good as dead. According to you, you have all the answers, and you have a perfect moral guide, congratulations Nemesis, you're the pinnacle of human evolution, how does that feel? I'm betting it doesn't feel like anything, you would have us lobotomize ourselves into blind faith when, ultimately the end result is... nothing.
The bible doesn't give you any great insights, it doesn't answer the questions which really matter, and as a moral guide it's ambiguous to say the least. And in the world you want to make, where reason is effectively dead, those ambiguities would tear us apart, and at that point I'll bet you the last ten thousand years of staggering human development will be undone overnight, and we can't start again. So Nemesis, I hope you're really sure about that book of yours...