Heh, until such time as the Ark of the Covenant appears and starts zapping world leaders, or God presents some other sign; I don’t think I can reach ‘pwnage’
But an informative exchange of ideas based upon the presupposition of a higher power, that I’d welcome (though I’d still prefer the public sphere)
Xeno Do you believe that we can choose to believe something? I know for me I have never really believed that God existed and never had an urge to believe or not to believe. I know you will say that it is sin in my life, but I live a pretty good life. I do not believe that I made a decision not to believe in God. Believe me life with a belief in God seems happier and I wanted to believe because my family and friends do but I could not.
Human’s are bound to pursue what they believe will make them happy, that is an irreversible fact of human life. That, what they
perceive as happiness can be devil worship, suicide, mass-murder, grand theft auto, ice-cream, wealth, or etc. Free will is what allows us
to pursue those things that are opposed to God’s message; it allows us to perceive unjust murder as something that would benefit us, it allows us to perceive theft as something that would benefit us.
Indeed, if we do not accept a higher moral authority; then by all means might must make right, for there will be no justice but that which is created by sweat and blood.
With basic instincts i meant our basic emotions and things that makes us human... Charity is no humanity, nor it is greed... We can't explain humanity in 1 word... It is a mixture of all things we feel... Each man has at least once in his time felt every emotion... if oyu wan't to admit it or not... at some point in your life you hated someone so badly you wanted him dead...
I do agree with you there. I was just making sure you weren’t approaching from say… a Calvinist-protestant view point, in which man is seen as naturally corrupt.
Which leads me to this:
And what do you know, we're still here and we have managed to contain our urges so we can live more or less peacefully. The worlds population is still going up, [u]human ethical standars are going up. I can honestly say that none of the people i know would do anything to make a profit while hurting someone.[u]
A belief in Orthodox Christianity (possible catholic, and some of the splinter groups, idk) assigns man’s nature a set value. The ancient pagan philosophers (on the whole) did the same. That is to say, man does not change: We become neither more holy in nature, or more sinful.
I myself try to avoid associating with the type of people you mention, however, my avoidance does not mean they do not exist. I’ve seen my car egged, my lawn-mower(s) stolen, the windows on main street riddled with some idiot’s air-rifle, the theft of laptops from a local school by a gang, etc.
On the corporate/national level, I’ve seen scandals and lying, take Nixon and Clinton (Clinton doubles as a case of sexual looseness)… Enron of course; and also the poisoning of the journalist and spy.
And on a global level, we have issues such as nuclear weapons, terrorists, AIDS, genocide, economic issues and etc.
I cannot see how the world’s society is any better or worse, after the ravages of time.
Indeed, if anything, most people fall into the opposite camp: They want to believe that the past was a golden age, when that is also not true.
We used to need religion. When people didn't have as high morals as we do now. But that was 5000 years ago... we have long passed the need for beliefs. We have a very highly developed sense of justice and ethics. We don't need God to tell us what to do.
And on what basis do those laws, ethics, and justice originate? What traditions did they develop from? If we have used Christianity as a building block for the moral foundations of modern government, how can we possibly remove that brick? Atheism, you say, but atheism denies a higher power, and by consequence a higher moral authority. If the ‘ethical’ standards of a government have no divine authority, then we will have a situation in which might makes right.
And that is not morality, its not even justice.
It said.. Atheists have never fought a war. On the other hand every single religion has been spread using force. Crimes that NOONE can forgive not now not till the end of times. Hundreds of millions of people were killed to keep religion alive. It is an act against it's very nature. Religion teaches peac and sympathy, we kill people to teach people these things. Shuldn't we be the ones to learn? Obviously we haven't.
I think the author was looking through a very small scope. In fact, there is quite a heated debate going on about Stalin and whether or not he can be used to refute such a statement as “atheists have never fought a war”, he among several other world leaders.
But to answer your question, Religion
does not always preach peace and sympathy. To assume such, would suggest you are mostly familiar with Christianity, or perhaps Buddhism.
To a Satanist, I would imagine bloodshed is welcome.
Now, do remember, wearing a gilt cross does not make you a saint. Claiming to be a Christian does not make you one. Therefore, one must look beyond the men and at the religion before determining its gospel’s message. Otherwise, I’m sure you’d find Cain and Able to show some linkage to the Jewish faith being ‘blood thirsty’: Absolutely, you would abhor the Catholic and Islamic faith.
If you can provide me with a specific instance of Christian conquest (I’d guess the crusades spring first to mind), I’ll be happy to discuss it, speaking in generalities would be an arduous task.
If you ask me that is the purpose of humanity. That is what we were made for... To see what we can do with ourselves.
Unless we put that into a moral context, then we will have people pushing the envelope of every experience, murder, death, shag dancing etc.
While I assume that you do mean the pursuit of something good, I.e. we should see how virtuous we can be… if there is no God, there can be no virtue.
If there is a God, then we must delve into which interpretation of Him correct, for that will define such things as Virtue.
P.S. Sorry I already have an account but I have to find the password... lol
I must have quit seven or eight forums becuase I forgotten my password/login name...
If interested, you could probably try Psi Kiya Trist, or another super admin, and see if they can reactivate your account for you.
](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall")
but i only argue with what i know from here *taps temple* and hence what i have been taught so as far as my philosophical knowledge on god and religeon goes, the fact gender is linked to it..is a big mistake..but then..to quote my dear friend "Philosophy is just being able to argue and prove your own points of view"...(blooper a surprisingly wise person wen he wants to be.)..but good one guys..was a refreshing change..
