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Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:06 pm
by ~Zekk~
Thor God Of War wrote:~Zekk~ wrote:Your missing the point: The laws of physics as we know them are incomplete, and as far as I'm concerned, are in certain areas wrong.
So, tell me, how can God, the being that is supposedly "older" then the universe its self(and thus, universal physics), be limited by the incompleted "laws of physics" as we understand them?
(Wait, I just repeated myself didn't I? I hate it when people make me do that... -.-)
Sorry to make you repeat yourself. What I'm just trying to understand by myself is how if
god transends all of the known physics, then how does it interact with the rest of the universe if it doesn't exist as a physical form of any type?
Right there! You've got my point, you just don't get it.
From what I've said above(and here now), God is a being that exists outside and above the laws of physics that we understand. Because we, as a race, are very immature and childish. Or perhaps I should just be nice and say "young".
But anyway, God knows what we don't: "So why does God have to be limited to the laws of physics AS WE(humans) UNDERSTAND THEM?"
Third times the charm, right?
But I believe the answer is, s/he/it doesn't. The universe is large, we are small and young. We have much to learn. If we don't destroy ourselves first, someday we may all come to understand things in detail, but for now as the others have said: There is no way to prove, nor disprove the existence of god. S/he/it is like that, ya know...they like being mysterious and sneaky.
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:14 pm
by Thor God Of War
I will have to concede on that point because of our very limited knowledge of the universe. However another thing bothers me about god and religion. First off why are morals so similar to the range and effect of human emotions and concurently why is all of religion(ALL of it) so similar to the basic morals of the human race? Is it possible that religion and the idea of god was born out of the need for a universal moral control so as to establish a fortified and functioning sociological ideal.
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:23 pm
by ~Zekk~
Religion as it has evolved, is now nothing more then a way to control and influence the masses. Or at least keep them happy for a while.
God has nothing to do with religion as it has evolved, and I believe every religion and faith has its own individual connection with god and reality. Another way of saying it would be, "God in all his grand wisdom, has come to us in many different forms, for many different people."
I firmly believe that religion is not required to obtain spiritual enlightenment, especially as religion is now. And even as it originally was, it was not a requirement. Merely a way to help "believers" find they're path to enlightenment.
As for morals, everyones morals are different, depending on how they're raised or how they come to believe things work. A strange example would be me, being raised in an uber strict Christian environment. Yet, there are many things I disagree with them on. Especially sexuality.
But, as for "human" morals, I do not believe humanity as a whole people has come to the point where they can accept such a thing. I could write a whole essay about why, but I'm tired and hot so I don't think I should... <.<
So, yeah...I'll leave this at that for now. Good night!
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:49 pm
by Legendary Apophis
Big Bang...enough proof for me.
You wanna tell me it's atoms explosion or something...I'll answer...what was before big bang?
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:57 pm
by R'zul
assuming god exists, trying to distinguish his existence from our level of thought would be entirely futile. being the so called 'supreme being', he would obviously be working on such a level that we could never even begin to grasp the mysterious ways he would work in.
an analogy i like to use for that idea is this. imagine a 2D man on a piece of paper, quite happily moving back and forth, up and down. this 2D man is then approached by a 3D man, who freaks the little 2D bugger out immeasurably by moving him sideways. this 2D man is used to his existence within his back and forth, up and down world, and the sheer concept of sideways would be completely out of reach for him to comprehend.
similarily, us thinking about god, is like the 2D man trying to think past the 3D man and his sideways, and into the 9D man with his new-ways.
(can someone tell me if i have stolen this from someone or somewhere, as i dont know how the idea got in my head, and i dont want to pretend this is my original thought. but wherever i got it from, it always gives me a giggle)
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:20 pm
by Fear Of The Duck
i think this idea was revealed unto you by some ultimate supreme being (it has to be that, cos the same idea occured to me some time ago).
basically God has to be unlimited (otherwise what kinda god would He (yes, yiz can call me a male shauvinistic pig) be? just a goa'uld or something.)
this means He has to exist within AND outside our spacetime (yers 2d/3d analogy, note that this also gives Him the absolute knowledge of everything while we keep our free will).
on top of that He is also unlimited by the laws of logic (otherwise the very concept of unlimited God is contradictory) that's why "we could never even begin to grasp the mysterious ways He would work in".
pops wrote:what was before big bang?
hmm.. good question...
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:34 pm
by ~Zekk~
Apophis The Great wrote:Big Bang...enough proof for me.
You wanna tell me it's atoms explosion or something...I'll answer...what was before big bang?
The big bang cannot be proven either. In fact, it's slowly being dis-proven as knowledge of the universe grows.
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:23 pm
by semper
By common conception of all religions believing in God, God is a perfect being.
Because God is a perfect being it cannot exist or pertain qualities with/of the imperfect and finite. Otherwise it would be a direct contradiction. God cannot have limited size, age, power. It does not need legs, a spine, or a body, it cannot have any of them. It does not have a gender (gender is a imperfect attribute, a sign of imperfection.) IF God exist's to the idea religion thinks it can exist God is above any form of basic human comprehension. It cannot talk, It cannot communicate in any sense we could ever understand. Immediately the old testament of the bible is nullified by its own beliefs.
But wait. If God is perfect, then surely it can effect the finite and imperfect llevels of existence? Well no, because then its not perfect...oh dear. The idea of a completely perfect being, the way the bible and all God based religions imply CANNOT exist. It's impossible for such a thing to exist. You could say well thats just my limited immature thinking...well no, because thats like saying I have hair on my head and I have no hair on my head at the same time, just dam silly!
So we have a pickle dont we. Only way dear old Yahwe can exist is if it aint perfect. In which case it is flawed. In which case people would lose faith. In which case God dies basically... long and painfully.
Next. We have the idea of free will. Determinism. Cause and Effect. NO FREE WILL. Does God plan out our destiny? Is the lord all powerful? Well erm..if he does..then how can we have free will? If 'he' has a plan for us? Oh dear....
So? God. Firstly, always ignore religion. Marxist is the best. Religion = way to control the masses. Its true. Yes, it provides other things, gives people hope and relief from the inevitable doom of death. It helps explain things we cannot, and hell it can actually give people drive and other great stuff. So THOUGH religion IS a God dam HUGE contradiction of itself, it has positive uses.
I personally believe IF God does exist, by some means beyond even my comprehension and the many philosophical minds that this planet has seen over the past 2000 years or more, then your relationship with it must be personal, but never real, because it can never be anything due to God's nature.
The ONLY way for God to exist is to accept things far beyond our understanding, and to do away with religion, because despite its usefulness it does nothing good for God itself. So does God exist!? I bloody well dam hope so! But I seriously doubt it, and even if it did, whether it could actually do anything to help.
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:55 pm
by Saturnine
Zekk is making a lot of sense here guys.
The one thing I would diagree with is his atoms arguement. You don't end an atom. You change it...
Honestly, nothing in this known universe has an ending. Everything "changes".
I wrote a poem once called, "Phoenix Becomes Fire" in it I said:
"Show me a bridge burned that is not reborn as smoke and ash"
Nothing is ever truly destroyed.
Yes, Goo. The universe has "always been" and it will continue to be on to infinity!
This may/may not prove the existance of a God, but may in fact support the argument for the immortality of the soul. Nothing ends. When our lives end, what says that our soul energy doesn't "change" like everything else in existance? No one's ever came back to tell us, not even Houdini. Doesn't mean there is no life after death though.
I'm kind of on the fence about God nowdays. I can't remember the proper term for this now. Someone between an atheist and believer?
But once apon a time, I was very spiritual. I was a pagan witch.
Nice to see you around these parts again!
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:06 am
by Nuto vixen
Hallowed are the Ori
No, really, on a serious note this is an excellent thread to be having an intellectual conversation within about the may or may nots about religion and the existance of a 'higher being' who presses all the buttons.
When I was very young, and naive, I used to believe strongly in God (The Catholic one that have the nice shiney cars), and this was mainly due to the fact that I was bought up that way. I was told there was a god, and so, I went along with it, sort of like Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny.
As time went on though, my eyes started to open to the idea that perhaps I will not be struck down upon if I were to claim that I no longer believed in this 'god', and that he was basically good for nothing.
Fear of god played a huge hand in my childhood. I recall accidently eating some capicollo (italian cold cuts) on Good Friday when "red" meat is a no no, and then being told that I needed to pray to god for forgiveness, and I was crying and hoping that for this small mistake that I would not go to hell, or lose the love of a non-entity. This perhaps paints the image of my family to be rather nasty and fear mungoring, but I assure you they are not. It's just that they too have had the fear of god ever since they were small children, but they never saw reason to question it like I did.
Fear is a very powerful thing and it's quite easy to manipulate people when they are scared.
I could go on about a specific religion which is so disgustingly rich that it would rather create a pure gold statue of Jesus then feed, oh, say and entire third world country for three months.... But I will refrain and keep it civil.
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:24 am
by Skunky
The answer to your question is 'No'
Atoms can neither be created nor destroyed they can only be transfered from different types of energy to an other type,
kinetic > gravitational
There is no beginning nor no end of the universe if god was real then there would have to be a beginning to the universe and he would of had to create it, and it is physically impossible for god to survive the only way for that to be possible if he was alive in a paradox or parallel universe. but that would mean he isn't 'all powerful nor all knowing' so he wasn't the the answer is 'NO' the definition of god is that he is supernatural, and all knowing, i.e a superhuman
sorry for not writing it out properly but im too tired and im ill but in a few days ill write my whole theory out
hope you enjoy reading it, it probably doesn't make sense but in my head it does,
regards
LH
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:54 am
by ~Sokar~
its a good topic..
i am in school now so i had no time to read all of the posts, maybe later.
i am a roman chatolic and i grew up in a quite religious family. i belive in god, but if i believe in her?him?it i have to believe in the devil in the angels and the other stuffs which are in the holy bible as well..
many ppl think that the bible is some kind of history book, written by ancient ppl who cannot describe or understand the things they saw and lived through. for example i watched a documentary film on national geograpich channel where scientists said the the city of sodoma (i hope i write it right) destroyed becouse under the surface there were chemical things, oil and gas and other stuffs and with a little fire it exploded. the bible say that it was destroyed by god cause of the ppl behavior, they become bad, scum of the society..
i belive in that scientific explaination, and i believe in some others too, but on the other hand i believe in god too..
if i have to imagine, i think its some kind of energy or higher intelligence something. i cannot write it in perfect english but the easiest way for me to explain what i think about, it is some kind of ascended beiing like in stargate.. i dont know why but i believe in it. its exist, it have to exist.
the question for me is not that do the god exist or not, the question is that, what is god exactly?
another interesting question is that what are the real true things in the bible (or in the other holy books: Thora, Koran, Holy Bible, Satanic Bible, ect.).
i think that we can understand many things with the help of science, but we will never know the truth about it, cause we are just too "stupid" to realise and know the whole thing, we are "just" humans and can never see through all the things in the life and universe..
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:37 am
by ~Zekk~
~LionHeart~ wrote:The answer to your question is 'No'
Atoms can neither be created nor destroyed they can only be transfered from different types of energy to an other type,
kinetic > gravitational
There is no beginning nor no end of the universe if god was real then there would have to be a beginning to the universe and he would of had to create it, and it is physically impossible for god to survive the only way for that to be possible if he was alive in a paradox or parallel universe. but that would mean he isn't 'all powerful nor all knowing' so he wasn't the the answer is 'NO' the definition of god is that he is supernatural, and all knowing, i.e a superhuman
sorry for not writing it out properly but im too tired and im ill but in a few days ill write my whole theory out
hope you enjoy reading it, it probably doesn't make sense but in my head it does,
regards
LH
Well, to be fair, in no religious text I've ever read has god claimed to create the universe. Only Earth and its inhabitants. He also says that he always has been and always will be, or something like that. So what you just said kinda makes sense.
Also, how can you prove that THIS is not merely a pocket universe, a small part of the true universe that is outside this one. Kinda makes ya wonder about alot of things, don't it?
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:44 am
by Skunky
~Zekk~ wrote:~LionHeart~ wrote:The answer to your question is 'No'
Atoms can neither be created nor destroyed they can only be transfered from different types of energy to an other type,
kinetic > gravitational
There is no beginning nor no end of the universe if god was real then there would have to be a beginning to the universe and he would of had to create it, and it is physically impossible for god to survive the only way for that to be possible if he was alive in a paradox or parallel universe. but that would mean he isn't 'all powerful nor all knowing' so he wasn't the the answer is 'NO' the definition of god is that he is supernatural, and all knowing, i.e a superhuman
sorry for not writing it out properly but im too tired and im ill but in a few days ill write my whole theory out
hope you enjoy reading it, it probably doesn't make sense but in my head it does,
regards
LH
Well, to be fair, in no religious text I've ever read has god claimed to create the universe. Only Earth and its inhabitants. He also says that he always has been and always will be, or something like that. So what you just said kinda makes sense.
Also, how can you prove that THIS is not merely a pocket universe, a small part of the true universe that is outside this one. Kinda makes ya wonder about alot of things, don't it?
Wooohooo my mumble jumble makes sense 
basically there are a lot of different opinions and views people can take, and yes it does make you seriously think about things which I've never really done. basically were not gonna know the truth until the end comes, but who knows it is possible that there is life after death.
regards
LH
Re: Does God exist?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:17 am
by Apadamek
~Zekk~ wrote:~LionHeart~ wrote:The answer to your question is 'No'
Atoms can neither be created nor destroyed they can only be transfered from different types of energy to an other type,
kinetic > gravitational
There is no beginning nor no end of the universe if god was real then there would have to be a beginning to the universe and he would of had to create it, and it is physically impossible for god to survive the only way for that to be possible if he was alive in a paradox or parallel universe. but that would mean he isn't 'all powerful nor all knowing' so he wasn't the the answer is 'NO' the definition of god is that he is supernatural, and all knowing, i.e a superhuman
sorry for not writing it out properly but im too tired and im ill but in a few days ill write my whole theory out
hope you enjoy reading it, it probably doesn't make sense but in my head it does,
regards
LH
Well, to be fair, in no religious text I've ever read has god claimed to create the universe. Only Earth and its inhabitants. He also says that he always has been and always will be, or something like that. So what you just said kinda makes sense.
Also, how can you prove that THIS is not merely a pocket universe, a small part of the true universe that is outside this one. Kinda makes ya wonder about alot of things, don't it?
You can second guess yourself 99.9999999999999...% of the time without batting an eye. is this reality real? Am i really just in a coma and this a dream? Am i just dreaming? is this some test to see if i am a good person in front of god?
You have to base assumptions on what people have proved to be right.