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jim, you have to understand how taxation works...

the running of the government is made possible by the tax corporations have to pay and by the indirect tax we pay.
indirect tax is the tax that is put on the things we buy.

now, the income tax (or council tax for the UK) is a direct tax and i don't know about the rest of the world but in the USA a direct tax is against the law as stated in the constitution (or is it the bill of rights? i can never remember).

nobodyhere wrote:jim, you have to understand how taxation works...

the running of the government is made possible by the tax corporationsrate have to pay and by the indirect tax we pay.
indirect tax is the tax that is put on the things we buy.

now, the income tax (or council tax for the UK) is a direct tax and i don't know about the rest of the world but in the USA a direct tax is against the law as stated in the constitution (or is it the bill of rights? i can never remember).

I know how taxes work lol
I just didn't know about the US system, and indeed indirect taxes on what we buy, on alcohol tobacco and oil stuff for my country too, represent a good part of total, like 45%, while rest being taxes depending on what people earn, taxes on undertakings, and taxes paid by everyone even non workers but to pay health programs (public here, so no hustlin, and rank 1 for health, above italy, while US is around rank 32 I guess) and other state intervention programs, such as public transports, redistribution of earnings to poor social classes etc...
I'd like to know what is meant to pay this tax, if it's deduced from original wage, or paid on the taxes and earnings report file everyone has to do(sorry for bad translate I dont know proper words). And what is it meant to do? Pay public debt? Pay the social programs? Pay the schools and other public sections?
If the rate is variable or static based on your capital, or on your wage, so if it depends on your earnings etc...

nobodyhere wrote:[if the government is borrowing federal dollars to do whatever the hell it likes why are the people of the USA paying federal income tax to back up this debt, does that not mean you have been enslaved without even feeling the shackles being placed on your wrists and ankles???

no... not enslaved... scammed..

suppose:

gov wants to borrow money so it issues it's papers $100 each. there's 10% interest on them. so ppl think: "let's buy this and earn a tenner"
suppose everybody buys one.
at the end of the year gov has to buy that back + 10%. where are they going to get the money from? they can issue another papers or pay from the tax money. assume it's tax.
question: did ppl earn $10?

@pops: ever heard of the laffer curve? what does it tell you?

Corran Horn wrote:

nobodyhere wrote:[if the government is borrowing federal dollars to do whatever the hell it likes why are the people of the USA paying federal income tax to back up this debt, does that not mean you have been enslaved without even feeling the shackles being placed on your wrists and ankles???

no... not enslaved... scammed..

suppose:

gov wants to borrow money so it issues it's papers $100 each. there's 10% interest on them. so ppl think: "let's buy this and earn a tenner"
suppose everybody buys one.
at the end of the year gov has to buy that back + 10%. where are they going to get the money from? they can issue another papers or pay from the tax money. assume it's tax.
question: did ppl earn $10?

@pops: ever heard of the laffer curve? what does it tell you?

That's why I don't support the taxes with variable rates growing as you earn extra cash each category going up from the less earning to the most earnning, because we never know what can happen, and after it turns people against each others. I'd say set a common rate, and the poorest don't pay. Like that poors don't get angry and totally in problems, and rich people pay, but won't get angry either! They earn alot, but don't pay alot, and other people same is for them: NO PRIVILEDGE TO ANY WHO CAN PAY!!!
What would be stupid is setting x amount of money for all people, that would either gets very little at the end, or ruin the poorest paying categories. So I say let's do a 15% (poorest ones who pay)-30% (most rich ones) rate on final wage. Not really static but well better than the 80% (yes!) some people have to pay!!!

heh I lacked of things to say now this thing seems a better base to talk about

Earendil wrote:

nobodyhere wrote:

Earendil wrote:also the debt / lack of 'paper' currency is other due to many other countries hoarding the US dollar

not true...

the 16th amendment to the constitution of the united states does NOT grant the government any new powers of taxation, even the US supreme court has said the same thing.

That has nothing to do with what i said....

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Would have surprised me otherwise.
The taxes became common since the middle age and developpement of new feodal society when were replaced warmonger lords by the aristocracy and then they used to collect taxes from the population, even if tradition didn't admit long term taxes, as they were only acceptable for famine moments or wars. Taxes were unacceptable until XIIIth century, before only the ones I just mentionned were ok.

Earendil wrote:

nobodyhere wrote:

Earendil wrote:also the debt / lack of 'paper' currency is other due to many other countries hoarding the US dollar

not true...

the 16th amendment to the constitution of the united states does NOT grant the government any new powers of taxation, even the US supreme court has said the same thing.

That has nothing to do with what i said....

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

yes it does, it all ties in, don't be fooled into thinking its all separate.

look up the supreme courts ruling on the 16th amendment. the supreme court ruled that the 16th amendment gave no NEW powers of taxation to the government.

if the 16th gave the gov new powers of taxation why was it not passed threw a full congress and instead was passed at X-mas time when most senators were home with their families??

OK, lets put a different spin on this...

for those that don't know, the 5th amendment is there to stop people from incriminating themselves BUT if you fill out a 1040 (tax return) and lie about your years expenditure you can be prosecuted...EXCUSE ME????

isn't that a direct violation of the 5th?????

just so were all clear on this, i'm not American i was born in the UK but am not English but what is happening in the states is not only tragic it is against human rights as well as TOTALLY unconstitutional...how come a non American can see this and most Americans cant?

BTW, i forgot to mention that there is NO law that states in absolute terms that you have to file a 1040, so my advice to all Americans is STOP PAYING FED TAX!!!

this doesn't just help the American people but all the people of the world because those same people who own the federal reserve own every single bank on the planet...

and by the way, i would also suggest to all Americans that you go ask questions about why the federal reserve (A PRIVATE CORPORATION!!!) has taken control of Americas gold reserves.

wake up America, your nations wealth has been stolen by international gangsters!!!

Hmmm if they are private then I agree this tax must go...how the hell can such institution be private?
Production of dollars being private hmmmm...and tax being paid to people that we don't really know of...hmmmm

Caiman Islands

*cough* First, I'd like to point out the following:

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 wrote:To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

The only discrepency I see is that the Federal Reserve is considered a private institution. But wait, is it?

Perhaps not.

'The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.
As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government."

Hmm...

ok, i'll make this simple...

the government needs to build a new road or whatever else, it goes to the federal reserve and asks for "X" amount of cash, the cash is supplied to the government but the debt is transfered to the people and this goes on top of the already outstanding national debt, now this is the real sick thing...

the money is not backed up by gold, the dollars supplied are just numbers on a screen and the money is created, printed and supplied to the government from thin air...how can the fed magically create money from nothing?

pre 1913 when Woodrow Wilson created the treasonous federal reserve (and in 1 fale swoop stole the American peoples right to manage its own wealth) every dollar bill had the heading "redeemable in gold" post 1913 now has the heading "this note is legal tender for all debts private and public"

i have just 1 question, when did paper become actual money?

a paper note is meant to represent a nations wealth which it holds in reserve, and said reserve is used to back each and every single note.

make no mistake i have done ALLOT of research into this and i'm telling you, the federal reserve is not only an illegal (as well as evil) institute issuing illegal currency, it is also unconstitutional.

i'd like to ask 1 more question...

what does the average American think the war of independence was all about?

for that matter, can anyone tell me why womans lib happened?

America is a country built on a foundation of lies and corruption, by thieves and cowards, for greed and the collection of power to those in control.

And everything went downhill from there...

Ohhhhh! Now I'm gonna get it, ain't I...

Personally, I see all this arguing as pointless, since I stand by the belief that I'll live to see the USA fall as a nation (like Rome, Egypt, Sumeria, and all others of ages gone by), if they don't destroy the rest of the world first (those of ages gone by didn't have nukes <_<)...

~Zekk~ wrote:America is a country built on a foundation of lies and corruption, by thieves and cowards, for greed and the collection of power to those in control.

And everything went downhill from there...

Ohhhhh! Now I'm gonna get it, ain't I...

Personally, I see all this arguing as pointless, since I stand by the belief that I'll live to see the USA fall as a nation (like Rome, Egypt, Sumeria, and all others of ages gone by), if they don't destroy the rest of the world first (those of ages gone by didn't have nukes <_<)...

Only country born on a genocide it is afterall
And before saying I'm anti-american...GO READ HISTORY BOOKS!!!

Zekk, I'm a patriotic military brat, but unfortunately I think you're right about the falling part.

Most people who pay attention would have no choice but to agree. And the worst part is, you only brought it upon yourselves. And from the very beginning at that...

Apophis The Great wrote:

~Zekk~ wrote:America is a country built on a foundation of lies and corruption, by thieves and cowards, for greed and the collection of power to those in control.

And everything went downhill from there...

Ohhhhh! Now I'm gonna get it, ain't I...

Personally, I see all this arguing as pointless, since I stand by the belief that I'll live to see the USA fall as a nation (like Rome, Egypt, Sumeria, and all others of ages gone by), if they don't destroy the rest of the world first (those of ages gone by didn't have nukes <_<)...

Only country born on a genocide it is afterall

That's not entirely true, per se...but you get the point, at least.

Sadly, it's true. I could go into my opinions, but I really don't know how to describe them besides tired frustration. It's like watching a car crash in slow motion while in the car.

*continues to ignore Pops glib statements*

You could always get out of the car. I mean, really...it's going in slow motion, all you have to do is get the door to open and step out.

Though, I suppose that depends on how many others you want to step out with you, and how willing they are to do so...