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Jack wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:OH, btw, while the fiasco of the aftermath of hurricane Katrina was going on do you guys know that the 2nd amendment to the constitution was suspended and the police were ORDERED to go round and collect peoples weapons?

Sources please.

President Bush has signed executive orders giving him sole authority to impose martial law and suspend habeas corpus. this gives him dictatorial powers over the people, without any checks and balances.

i cant remember where i read that but its something i remember seeing and copying down into notepad. this should be very easy to research.

Dark Lord Shaitan wrote:destruction and demise, then we need to close the borders, recall all of our troops, declare marshal law .

i cant believe my eyes do you not understand what you have just said???

that above statement is wrong on so many levels i don't know where to begin.

firstly it is against the US law to put the troops on the streets (even tho this happening already) the founding fathers of america knew to well the dangers and made a law to stop just what you are proposing.

secondly, have you guys not ever wondered why you cant protect your borders?? its the same problem that we in britain face, they want to flood the streets with the dregs of other nations.
have you never wondered why society is in such shape and why we can no longer leave our front doors open any more???

if i was an American i would be demanding to know why my government has just pulled 1200 boarder patrol men from the US Mexican boarder and sent them to Iraq on better pay.

Well our founding fathers never invisioned a state of affairs that we are in now. Ok, maybe not marshal law, but something definately needs to be done to stop the madness as they say, and fix everything. As a veteran, I know the pride some of the old vets feel when they look at the flag, something many americans have forgotten today. They don't know the hardships that it took to keep that flag the way it is. Sure they teach of all the wars and such in history and in other classes, but they don't get the teachings from people that felt it the way it was. They don't hear the stories of the vets who sat in a fox hole for 12 or more hours to make sure that the camp they were protecting didnt get over run. All they hear today is what Bush and his cronies are doing. The biggest mistake Bush made in all of this war is:



We are no where near the end of this, because it has nothing to do with Terror. It has to do with lining his own pockets. Even now, he is trying to get congress to lift the ban on offshore oil drilling. It won't help our gas prices for many years, but it will start to shove money into his pocket almost immediatly. Seriously though, the US needs to do something and soon. The government won't do it, all it cares about is lining their own pockets. No I am not calling for citizens to walk into the streets carrying any weapon they can get their hands on, but maybe they need to send a clear messege to the government that they won't take it anymore. Myself and about 100 other vets I know in the area I live in have decided we are not going to vote, and the numbers are growing.

reading what you wrote has just made the hair on the back of my neck and on my arms stand up.

nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see power restored to the people. its a shame that we in england have a more corrupt government than that of the USA because ultimately the power does NOT lie with the prime minister or parliament but does in fact still reside with the queen of england, the fact that she does not use the power but delegates the power to the prime minister and parliament (ever wondered how the the thrown can sack a prime minister and summon the prime minister at will when the thrown is meant to be nothing more than a figure head?) does not mean she is powerless far from it. the power in england lies with the thrown but the thrown does not use the power to keep public anger from being directed at the thrown and to keep the thrown immune to such anger, otherwise we would ask for a constitution, bill of rights and a republic just as they have in the USA.

if the American people could remove the unconstitutional federal reserve it would give the rest of us a fighting chance at removing our central bank as well thereby removing corruption from government.
but to accomplish that you HAVE to retake congress and the way to retake congress is to vote for people who will sign an affidavit saying they will shut down the fed if they get elected and by spreading the word, which is what i am trying to achieve here.

i'll quote Thomas Jefferson:



"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
-Thomas Jefferson


"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set
the Government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs."
-Thomas Jefferson

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations
that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
-Thomas Jefferson



i firmly believe (and nothing can sway me from this) that the founding fathers of the USA knew to well the evils of a central bank because of the wars that Great Britain was forced to fight because of the bank of england.

they saw the evil of such an institution and wanted nothing to do with it, my hat is off to the founding fathers because they cared that much for the land and its people.

whatever you all do please act quickly because if this bill goes threw we can ALL be classed as terrorists just because we are communicating...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFrkyZbMis0

this also needs to be seen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TShPYA-OuPs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCvK41mjZdo



i've just found this report about the suspension to the constitution. its not what i saw last time but this is much more detailed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw_KZItjBEA

Dark Lord Shaitan wrote:Well our founding fathers never invisioned a state of affairs that we are in now. Ok, maybe not marshal law, but something definately needs to be done to stop the madness as they say, and fix everything. As a veteran, I know the pride some of the old vets feel when they look at the flag, something many americans have forgotten today. They don't know the hardships that it took to keep that flag the way it is. Sure they teach of all the wars and such in history and in other classes, but they don't get the teachings from people that felt it the way it was. They don't hear the stories of the vets who sat in a fox hole for 12 or more hours to make sure that the camp they were protecting didnt get over run. All they hear today is what Bush and his cronies are doing. The biggest mistake Bush made in all of this war is:



We are no where near the end of this, because it has nothing to do with Terror. It has to do with lining his own pockets. Even now, he is trying to get congress to lift the ban on offshore oil drilling. It won't help our gas prices for many years, but it will start to shove money into his pocket almost immediatly. Seriously though, the US needs to do something and soon. The government won't do it, all it cares about is lining their own pockets. No I am not calling for citizens to walk into the streets carrying any weapon they can get their hands on, but maybe they need to send a clear messege to the government that they won't take it anymore. Myself and about 100 other vets I know in the area I live in have decided we are not going to vote, and the numbers are growing.

When the goverment doesnt control its own currency there is not much that can be done.
Who owns the federal reserve btw. which banks?

as i understand it, full ownership of the fed or the bank of england has NEVER been made public.

i suspect its the Rothschild's, Rockefeller's, schiff and warburg familys and possibly others.

well...this certainly is an interesting topic

for starters:

the value of gold increases for a very simple reason, gold is rare, it is effectively the benchmark for the value of any commodity

are tony blair, george bush and gordon brown liars, almost certainly. Politicians lie, or rather as i like to say "bend the truth", if you could imagine a politician telling the truth they would not last a second.

for example, if alastair darling was to admit that an economic crunch is coming due to mortgages etc and there is nothing he can do about it, he would be forced to resign within hours


have you ever considered that the ulterior motives of bush/blair and co. are in fact to benifit the american and british economies? We need fuel, so we obtain it, in any way deemed necesarry, if that amounts to invasion then so be it. Historically, thats how things get done and life progresses.

As for the queen of england, she is head of state and commander of the Royal Armed Forces, ROYAL navy and airforce. All UK troops swear allegiance to her. Britain is a democratic monarchy, she does not have absolute power, the monarchy's power is limited. if she was absolute ruler there would be a civil war, happened before

Avenger you're doing the classic conspiracy theorist tactic to convince people. Put forward SO many arguments that while people are taking the time to discus some of them you move straight through to the next one. In this one thread you must have raised around 20 different issues! You've provided pretty much no evidence for any of them. So do us all a favour and don't bring up any new arguments, let us discus these ones first and then move on to the next.

The idea that something ceases to be a theory when you have a shred of evidence for it is silliness. Gravity is a theory! If anything this is substantially less than a theory. For it to be a theory you need a lot more than just idle speculation. For starters you need a motive. Why are they doing all this? You need an explanation of why the existing story is less plausible than yours. Why should people believe you and not what they already know? There's a lot more to a theory than just 'this could have happened because I say so'. But don't get bogged down in this point please. The rest of what I am writing is much more worthy of your consideration.

The Queen cannot fire the Prime minister on a whim and such a statement shows no understanding of British political procedure. People who spend to much time reading American political literature end up with the idea that if it isn't expressly forbidden in the constitution then anything goes. In many other places around the world this is not the case. In Britain and indeed Australia (where I live) our constitutions are nowhere near as comprehensive as in the USA. Instead a lot of our rights and political processes extend from conventions rather than expressly written laws and documents. In other words it's much more closely linked with precedent (like courts work) than legal statute. Bagehot - a well referenced British political philosopher spent much of his life writing about and studying the way the British political system worked and said that the monarch has: "the right to be consulted, the right to encourage, the right to warn." He was pretty much right on the money. The last British prime minister to be dismissed by a monarch was close to two centuries ago.

FEMA building concentration style camps? Nice try with that one but that is a mere attempt to make us think of them as Nazi's. What makes something a concentration camp? If indeed FEMA are building anything at all (and I haven't seen any evidence here that they are) a mere physical resemblance does not make it a concentration camp. Not until there is some combination of having people in them who are there because of their race/religion/political beliefs who are being tortured, kept without food and water, being experimented on, executed and buried in mass unmarked graves can you call them 'concentration type camps'. Any attempt to is a mere attempt to win people over to your argument with emotional blackmail rather than to provide actual evidence.

Police in post cyclone Katrina... What would you suggest should be done? People are raping, shooting, stealing from and killing each other. Patrolling the streets is far from ideal but the other options are far worse. I was not aware they were taking people's guns but if you ask me that does not sound like a bad idea given the situation! I think this would be a perfect time to answer your question: "if something is unconstitutional can that be classed as a DIRECT attack on the constitution and the peoples freedom?" Of course it CAN be classed as that but that does not necessarily mean it should be in all cases. Post cyclone Katrina is an excellent example of this. People were (and still are) DYING! Democracy and freedom is lovely and we should do everything in our power to preserve it in every possible case but when people are without homes, food, clean water, clothing and are living in constant fear of rape and murder then there are more important rights at stake than the right to be able to walk the streets at any hour of the night they wish without police telling them to go back inside. When different rights are not compatible with each other SOMEONE has to step up and prioritise them. Did they make mistakes? Absolutely but I would not be prepared to call an attempt to save people from rape and murder a direct attack on their freedoms, at most it was an indirect result of trying to protect more fundamental freedoms. i.e. the right to life.

It is true that the reserve banks of the world use to have less power. But we do need them today. We live in a global community with global currencies. I can't explain economics to you in a paragraph but basically without a dollar that can fluctuate in value you will end up with living conditions like they are in countries where the government controls its value like in say.. China. Free trade creates jobs and stops wars. It insures peoples freedom.

There's four things to start with. Try to actually discus those before moving on and raising your next 20 points.

you know what America needs, i'll tell u what America needs

[spoiler]agood 5 cent beer again[/spoiler]

you say i raise 20 odd subjects, what you fail to realize is that all these subjects/problems are all related and NOT separate, the tie that binds is the control of money. the bankers have all the money and can print it at will but thats not what they are after, they have all the gold reserves of the world why on earth would they want paper money, its just paper, the reason is, if they have it then we need it because we can never have enough, it keeps us on a leash.
contrary to belief economic down turns, recessions and devaluation of our money does not just happen its engineered to happen, the great depression for instance was engineered to happen by the big 4 wall street financiers (if you read the biography's of John D Rockefeller, Paul Warburg, Bernard barouk sorry i forget the name of the 4th, they all marvel at the fact that they all got out of the stock market just before the crash) they did this by calling in their 24 hour broker call loans which meant that stockbrokers and customers had to dump their stocks on the market at any price to pay back the loans, as a result of the frenzied selling the market crashed and that day was known as black thursday.

as republican Louis T McFadden put it.
"it was not an accident. it was a carefully contrived occurrence...the international bankers sought to bring about a condition of despair here so they could emerge as rulers of us all"

the dollar is now worth 3 maybe 4 cents of what it was say 50 to 60 years ago and if any of you thinks the dollar will survive another 5 or 6 years (let alone 50 to 60) you are sadly mistaken, the dollar WILL be crashed and all money will go the way of the Dodo...since when did paper get so detached from true money the gold and silver
how can $20 worth of gold be worth more than a $20 bill? it cant but thats what we have been taught to believe. and this is fact. gold is now worth 3 times what it was pre 9/11 while the same amount of paper $ isnt worth the ink and paper used to make it...did you guys know there are already shops in new york that refuse to take the dollar and are now dealing in euros?


i say again...this is NOT a theory, i didn't sit down and watch zeitgeist and think "OH MY GOD, THOSE EVIL PEOPLE, THEY WANT TO KILL US I BETTER RUN AROUND SCREAMING ABOUT THIS"

my goal here is to get ALL of you to think enough to go do your own research and see for yourselves because no matter what i say or show you you wont believe what i say, i'm NOT a conspiracy theorist, i don't deal in "THEORYS", conspiracy theories are for nut jobs with nothing better to do than to "THINK" they found some dirty little government secret.

ultimately talk is cheap, i'm giving you all the info you guys need to go research and find out for yourselves 1st hand.

now if you'll excuse me i have a long day ahead of me and need sleep

Again, you didn't respond to any of my points, shall I assume this means you concede them all?

It IS a theory, I don't think you even know what the word theory means. A theory is an explanation for the way the world is. The theory of gravity, the theory of relativity etc. It does not make gravity any less real because it is a theory.

Another theory you seem to have no grasp of is economics. Have you even heard of terms such as 'inflation' and 'buying power'? I am by no means an economist and there are no doubt many people here that can explain this better than I can but if the dollar does not change in value then the economy cannot grow! Paper money its self has very little meaning, it is a mere representation of actual money. Printing more or less of it does not matter as it does not change the actual amount of money that exists.

You've finally raised a source to back up your claim. The problem being McFadden was a racist, anti-semitic man who believed Jews were responsible for the major economic and social problems in the USA. He was a supporter of Hitler and his campaign to cleanse Germany of all Jewish influence. The guy was a loony who should certainly not be used to back up any argument, let alone one of economics!

This was supposed to go after DLS's post, but my computer was about to crash before I could finish it (Vista revs the computer for about 30 secs, then shuts it down when it thinks something is wrong. Usually it's an update it thinks it needs. Not sure what's wrong atm.) Anyways, this was my saved response, unfinished due to new posts. Will come back later.

I will say that along with smoosh's mention of using an anti semetic for support, Andrew Jackson practically crowned himself king, pushing through his legislation, vetoing what he didn't like, and overruling the Supreme Court. I find it ironic that the man who stood up to the central bank and is used as a role model (in fighting those who are allegedly attempting to get rid of the Constititution) when he stretched his own powers and blatantly disobeyed the directive of the Constitution in his disobediance to execute the Supreme Court desicion, shown in detail here and in overview here.

Actually, we have drastically closed our borders since the closing of Ellis Island. I'd say more, but it would digress from the conversation. So... perhaps another thread would be better for immigration discussions.

As for the central bank discussions, while there is some I agree with, I also agree with DLS in the fact that societies look for scapegoats. Economy fails, blame the President. Disaster hits, blame the President. God rejects you at Heaven's pearly white gates. It's the President's fault.

Seriously, people need to be a little more self sufficient and stop instantly pointing fingers at the most visible. I love how people point at FEMA when they talk about New Orleans and Katrina. Does anybody wonder why Louisianna was the only state which got headlines for disaster relief failures when other states were hit? It's cause it had an inefficient (and probably corrupt, from what I've heard) state government which couldn't get any of the red tape cut, while other governor (Mississippi and such) navigated the bureaucracy known as our government and got the help they needed. Same thing could have happened in Louisianna if they had any idea how to do their jobs as politicians.

Sidenotes time !

(First, don't completely blame politicians for all the troubles in the world. Politicians are in many ways mirrors of their constituencies. Sure, we've heard complaints of pork barrelling. But if it's so hated, why did Wisconsin vote out a Senator who campaigned on anti pork and then went through with it? Sure, a lot of them are pretty slippery. But what do you expect from a bunch of guys who's jobs are ruled by picky people who only pay attention to [the politicians] when elections come about? Perhaps if people watched them over their terms to make sure they were doing what they promised, the politicians would fly a little straighter. But I'm rambling, so I'll wrap that side note up.

Second, on the topic of Katina and gun control, do you not remember the multiple shootings? Jack, I already know you're going to argue those people should have guns to defend themselves, but the truth is that not everyone sleeps with a firearm in their house. Some people just aren't comfortable, can't afford, etc. etc. Furthermore, such gun control actions were most likely directed at looters and criminals who were running around the streets; unless those guys were invented also, a doubtable claim considering the police reports that came out of New Orleans. However, a better idea might have been the deputizing and organizing of concerned citizens into citizen watch groups to combat armed criminals, similar to the awakening councils of Sunnis in Iraq. They could work with the NG to protect themselves/neighbors and then put away their weapons once the conflict was over).

@smoosh...

1stly, i'm going to drop the argument about the monarchy. i do NOT concede the argument to you, but to prove what i say is true will take way more time than i am prepared to invest but you can trust that i would not have brought it up if i had not researched it thoroughly and found it to be true.

2ndly, FEMA concentration camps, well i used the power of google and ran a general search. this took me all of 2 seconds...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=f ... gle+Search

3rd, the weapons the police confiscated was from people who were defending their family, home and processions from looters. the governor of new Orleans was so fearful of public reprisals because of the shambolic way in which relief and rescue efforts were handled that an order was issued to collect all weapons in civilian hands which is in direct violation of the 2nd amendment and by breaking into peoples home i think is also a violation of the 4th, someone can correct me if i am wrong.
violating the 2nd sets a dangerous president for the simple reason that when the time comes for FEMA to start filling their concentration camps they will try to take peoples weapons 1st.

4th, i agree that modern society does need a good solid banking system however, we don't need it in its present form and for your information, expanding markets is not necessary when you have a stable currency, economy and zero inflation, it is needed if you have those 3 things which as i said above are artificially created by the bankers themselves.

why do we need money, is it to grow rich or is to facilitate the exchange of goods and trade, if its to grow rich and to hoard it away then yes we need all of the bad things which are associated with money, if its just to facilitate the exchange of goods and trade then no we do not need any of it, and all you need is a steady flow filtered down from government (threw the commissioning of public works) to the public.

don't think how you have been taught, the teachers themselves are part of the problem because they have a curriculum to follow and so teach you what they are told to teach you and nothing more. try to think outside of the box and at least give what i say a chance instead of using the arguments you have been taught because they are wrong and for me to try to prove my point by using the books you yourself used would be impossible for me to do.

Ok then, so if you don't use 'books' why don't you tell us the methodology you used to research this? How long have you been studying it and for how many hours a week? Do you hold any sort of tertiary education certificates? Have you completed a thesis on any of this?

Just so we know where we're at.

smoosh

In Regards to Hurricane Katrina and the people of Louisiana. The People who could and I mean had the means to escape the storm got out, which left only the stubborn ,poor , the elderly , the handicapped and the disenfranchised left behind. Make no mistake there was plenty of warning that storm was coming. The government of Louisiana did all it could. Did it fail? yes because it was not prepared for the scope of the disaster. Nobody was, not even FEMA could have predicted the need for help so did they fail the neediest people in the region, yes they did. Now I might add that the psychological state of some of the disaster victims was that of survival which resulted in a very primitive experience. There was complete and utter chaos. The police couldn't handle it and the people were left to defend themselves. There was violence and robberies there were rapes there was looting hell even the police were caught on tape looting. There was a complete breakdown of society, and survivors were on there own for way to long waiting for relief which pushed this psychosis of the survivors to the brink.

The declaration Martial law had to happen it was the only way to regain order and release funds, equipment and supplies to the places that needed it most. Should they have taken peoples guns? hell yes, there were fractions of the population armed illegally documented doing harm and creating fear. It wasn't about because we can we will, there was chaos and suffering and our military is trained to handle this in a very specific way and did so swiftly and efficiently. Not to violate the people of Louisiana but to save them.

Our government doesn't just randomly declare marshal law when ever it wants it serves its purpose and did help the people in the case of Katrina.

hehehe, I love the gun debate, rarely is the contrast between the left and the right so visible.

Left: Guns are the PROBLEM
Right: Guns are the SOLUTION