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[KMA]Avenger wrote:1, given that even the holly book, The Torah, explicitly states that a Jewish state of Israel is forbidden, should it even exist?
There is a fairly small movement that believes this, the Neturei Karta. As to yet I couldn't find any reference that would even bother quoting the Torah to show where it says that a Jewish state is forbidden. In fact, most Jewish Rabbis and scholars are in favour of a Jewish state.

The argument is based on what is called the "Three Oaths", which are from the Song of Songs:

* I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please (Song of Songs 2:7).

* I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please (Song of Songs 3:5).

* I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem: Why should ye awaken, or stir up love, until it please? (Song of Songs 8:4).

From these various interpretations are made as to the content of the Three Oaths, a fairly simple interpretation being:
What are these Three Oaths [written in the Song of Songs 2:7, 3:5 and 8:4 ]? One, that Israel should not storm the wall [RaShI interprets: forcefully]. Two, the Holy One made Israel take an oath not to rebel against the nations of the world. Three, the Holy One made the nations vow that they would not oppress Israel too much

I don't proclaim to understand how they managed to arrive at the Three Oaths from the given three verses, but it shows that it is a matter open to mis-interpretation and debate.



also, Palestine was NEVER a land without people for a people without land, unless the Canaanite people who inhabited that land originally (and whom the Palestinians are direct descendants of) are a fictitious people!
If you want to follow this line of debate, you'll have to agree that the USA shouldn't be allowed to exist, either. The land originally belonged to the native peoples of the country, and was forcibly taken from them by the settlers. By the same argument, South-Africa will have to be divided into several smaller countries: one for the white people (a piece of land that was bought from Zulu king Dingane) and one for the Zulus, one for the Xhosas... The list goes on.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:or should it disbanded and returned to its rightful (for lack of a better word) owners?

i'm going to make this a poll in a few days, but first we seriously need to think about and have greater understanding of what it is we are voting on, read this again because all to quickly people vote on these boards without reading...

but first we seriously need to think about and have greater understanding what it is we are voting on.

there will be no anti-Jewish propaganda or hate posting going on here by ANYONE who wishes to discuss this topic like an adult and with an open mind!

lets take a look at a chart of Israels growing theft of land from the Palestinian people since the late 1940's first of all:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

now lets have a look at what true Jews think of this theft. this is a site where it shows pictures of orthodox Jews rallying all over the word:

http://www.nkusa.org/

[spoiler][/spoiler]

1, given that even the holly book, The Torah, explicitly states that a Jewish state of Israel is forbidden, should it even exist?
wrong

2, and having seen that the Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed, how is this any different to whats happened in the Balkans, Iraq, China/Tibet, and MANY other country's round the world? how can we justify the invasion of Iraq under the pretext of "Freeing" the Iraqi people and bringing down a dangerous dictator (a dictator who was placed in power, financed and kept there by the Americans i might add) when exactly the same thing is happening in Palestine??
wrong, false parallel and false assumptions about your premises being correct

3, when Palestinians go blowing themselves up, how can we condemn this act but by the same breath, find no condemnation for what the Israelis have done and continue to do?
Correct, both sides perpetuate the violence. But, again you presume to much

4, allot people don't know this but, an American woman in her early 20's was run over with an Israeli (American built and supplied) bulldozer while trying to stop the destruction of a doctors home!
Rachel Corrie-the girl with the biggest dream and biggest heart.

this is a 9 minute video about Rachel and parts of this film are not easy to watch:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FyrQL-ZhMy4
WTH, are you trying to prove with this
5, how many of you know about this Irish woman who was shot by Israelis for simply protesting?

Mairead Maguire, irish Nobel Peace Laureate (1976).

3.5 min video:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YUF05gKJJgw

theres so much MORE that i have learned about whats going on in Palestine and why its happening, suffice to say that its NOT what people think or what the media is spinning. don't listen to the medias lies about Palestine. given that Israel is supposed to uphold human rights why is there no outcry from the rest of the world?! because of media spin!

also, Palestine was NEVER a land without people for a people without land, unless the Canaanite people who inhabited that land originally (and whom the Palestinians are direct descendants of) are a fictitious people!

whats happening is nothing short of genocide in our modern age, so how is this different to what Hitler did? we went to war with Germany because of Hitler and similar events, how quickly we forget!

well i don't speak the language and i don't trust translations, i would sooner trust a Rabbi telling me what is written and what is not. 1 Orthodox Jew saying something is written is 1 thing, but when you have Rabbi's telling you the same thing, well its upto the individual to see if he's being lied to but bear in mind that there are pictures of Orthodox Jews holding banners that say in English that the state shouldn't exist.

as for america and the natives that were wiped out, those thoughts did cross my mind but that's long in the past and we are not likely to bring those people back, same with africa and every other country/peoples this has happened to. same cannot be said for whats going on in the here and now.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:i'm not looking to point fingers as to who is right and who is wrong, i think the situation deserves more respect than that, and that's not what this thread is about.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:since when did this become personal?

this thread is about the injustice that's being done to the Palestinian people with the help of American backing and our ignorance.

btw, was you taught at school that 80% of Israel is actually owned by the Rothschilds?