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The same charges could be levelled not only at the roman empire, the british empire but also pretty much the entirety of Europe & the US as well.

All of which came after the Greeks so they should really have been more civilised & advanced right? Yet they did exactly the same, hmm.

You cant judge the society by todays socities, you need to compare how their society was to the others at the time. At the time they were much more advanced & civilised than the majority of the world and much more open as well (ie easier to observe)

EDIT: In answer to your question I consider an advanced civilisation one that can handle the challenges it faces without breaking its primary principles to do so.

so the saying goes, you cant do bad guy stuff & say but its ok we're the good guys

Kit-Fox wrote:The same charges could be levelled not only at the roman empire, the british empire but also pretty much the entirety of Europe & the US as well.

All of which came after the Greeks so they should really have been more civilised & advanced right? Yet they did exactly the same, hmm.

You cant judge the society by todays socities, you need to compare how their society was to the others at the time. At the time they were much more advanced & civilised than the majority of the world and much more open as well (ie easier to observe)

EDIT: In answer to your question I consider an advanced civilisation one that can handle the challenges it faces without breaking its primary principles to do so.

so the saying goes, you cant do bad guy stuff & say but its ok we're the good guys

But are the Greeks a "advanced" society. I'm not sure they are. Yes, they held off the Persians, but the moment the common threat was gone, they turned on each other. And I'm not certain that in the crucible of history, the Greeks "handled challegnes it faces without breaking its primary principles." That doesn't strike me as advanced, at least by the definition you've supplied.

I think this is going in the directions of a tangent, however, from the initial argument of the necessity of big government. From a historical perspective, the larger the population, the larger the government. Do some of the purposes of government become self-driving, rather than by the needs of the people? Certainly. It was brought up earlier (too lazy to look) that people could govern themselves more effectively then big government could/can, but haven't learned how to do, or whatever.

If this is true, what's changed in the history of the West to cause this? It's my perspective that this is the historical pattern. Rome supports this. So does the Persian Empire. The British Empire. Present day United States.

Hmm I tihnk we have two different ideas of what the topic is really about, how about we agree to disagree?

Tis probably the best idea methinks

well, i thought i was pretty clear, my bad for not making it so

the topic is about the intrusion of govt in every aspect (and i mean EVERY) of our lives, you guys wish to live in such a society? (btw, can anyone here tell me the name of their society?), i know i dont, govt has no right to do any of it, especially the british govt!

another point and fact to keep in mind is the fact that we have a defacto govt that is totally illegal, it has been for the past few hundred years!

i cant remember where i read it or how long ago this was (200/300 years), but our govt has been usurped and is a corporation, in fact, every govt dept is incorporated and this you can go find out for yourselves on the net (this is also the reason why nothing changes and only gets worse whether you guys admit this or not, it remains a fact....new labor? DO ME A FAVOR!). there is a website you check this on but cant remember the name, its Dunn and something. its where all corporations are listed so should be easy to find.

anyways, every british govt has been illegal ever since it was usurped, and also, we don't have public servants in office, they are govt (I.E. corporate) officers/employees...whatever.

anyways, at this point i bid you all the very best because i wont be coming back. last year i quit the game and today i quit this forum, but i leave happy in the knowledge that my misplaced topics in debate was a major reason the discussion board was created...

so i bid you all a happy discussion and hope and pray you lift the vail from your eyes and see the world the way it is and not the way you have been taught it is

Kit-Fox wrote:Hmm I tihnk we have two different ideas of what the topic is really about, how about we agree to disagree?

Tis probably the best idea methinks

Perhaps so. But I have heard it said that iron sharpens iron.

And to KMA, enjoy life.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:well, i thought i was pretty clear, my bad for not making it so

the topic is about the intrusion of govt in every aspect (and i mean EVERY) of our lives, you guys wish to live in such a society? (btw, can anyone here tell me the name of their society?), i know i dont, govt has no right to do any of it, especially the british govt!

another point and fact to keep in mind is the fact that we have a defacto govt that is totally illegal, it has been for the past few hundred years!

i cant remember where i read it or how long ago this was (200/300 years), but our govt has been usurped and is a corporation, in fact, every govt dept is incorporated and this you can go find out for yourselves on the net (this is also the reason why nothing changes and only gets worse whether you guys admit this or not, it remains a fact....new labor? DO ME A FAVOR!). there is a website you check this on but cant remember the name, its Dunn and something. its where all corporations are listed so should be easy to find.

anyways, every british govt has been illegal ever since it was usurped, and also, we don't have public servants in office, they are govt (I.E. corporate) officers/employees...whatever.

anyways, at this point i bid you all the very best because i wont be coming back. last year i quit the game and today i quit this forum, but i leave happy in the knowledge that my misplaced topics in debate was a major reason the discussion board was created...

so i bid you all a happy discussion and hope and pray you lift the vail from your eyes and see the world the way it is and not the way you have been taught it is

This is all beginning to sound very familiar.

Anyway, short answer: constitutionally, executive authority is bestowed on the Queen in Britain. That authority is exercised by the ministers in Her Majesty's Government (I wonder why it's called that....hmmmmmm.....). So seriously, if you were a Queen (who knows...), would you put up with some jumped up corp running things in your backyard? I think not.

And anyway, even if it is, it's perfectly legal, because the Queen has authorised it. So relax, and follow Caladon's good advice - enjoy life!

Don't worry, this information has not been spoon-fed to me by some government indoctrination machine - I've researched it from freely available, non-government sources on the internet. (With B&Q...) You can too!

Or not.....

Let me bid you farewell. I only hope your quest for the truth will bear greater fruit than it has here.

Dr. Sidney Theodore Freedman wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice

Good Luck KMA, stay calm and remember to relax once in a while

Caladon wrote:

Kit-Fox wrote:Hmm I tihnk we have two different ideas of what the topic is really about, how about we agree to disagree?

Tis probably the best idea methinks

Perhaps so. But I have heard it said that iron sharpens iron.

And to KMA, enjoy life.

Ok then here goes and try and stick with me as this might not make much sense, I'm not great at conveying thoughts through text.

When I think big government I think of a government that has become bloated with departments in deprtments and has replicated the same. A government that relies upon unaccountable and unelected officials & one that is out of control in regards to law making, and makes laws for all the silly little stuff to allow it to criminalise 99% of the pop while ignoring the real criminals and the advice of its own experts.

I dont think a big government neccessarily means one that has lots of departments or offices of power. I dont think that just because laws I dont agree with are made it is a big Gov, but somewhere along the line most large Govs turn inwards and begin to attack their own with the power they have been granted & then they have become a Big Gov that needs trimming down to size.

Did that make sense?

EDIT : A good example of laws been used as a weapon against the populace to enforce silly amounts of regulation onto the populace would be the Labour Party of the UK, they came to power in 1997 & in 2004 a survey was conducted of the state of the law looking at what they had done since coming into power. It was discovered that over 3000 new laws had been created, thats over 2 a day since been elected & that 80% of all the new laws were in fact civil laws not criminal. It has come out since that the criminal code/law under labour has been weaken so much as to make essentially non existant. Instead they use finacial fines (ie stealth taxes) for everything from reckless driving to littering.

'Well so you should be fined for littering' I hear you say, yeah ok if your an adult and you deliberately litter then yes a fine is appropiate, but you can be fined for littering if you feed the ducks at a local pond/river, if your child drops litter or if you unknowingly drop a peice of litter. Now if you consider that the minimum fine is a hefty £80 (which is more than would get a week on jobseekers benefits just to put it into perspective) and the maximum is £5000 thats a tad on the excessive side especially if you didnt do it knowingly or were feeding animals such as ducks and there arent any local regulations to stop you (such as dont feed the animal signs etc)

Ah, thank you Kit-fox, that was a telling response. I will have to agree with you. Government with bloated bureaucracy and nonsensical/illogical regulation/legislation is BIG government to me as well.

I think we agree.

Ahh, good to see we are actually talking about the same thing.

Too easy on thread like these to get into petty arguments about how both parties are saying the same thoughts in different ways.

That and of course whenever government threads come up a lot of folks are very skeptical about the sometimes very justified skepticism shown towards some Govs as they dont want to be seen rocking the boat as it were, but sometimes you have to rock the boat to avoid the shallow corals.