The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

K I think you misunderstood was saying.

Spyridon wrote:but for me, free will was made up by humans as they don't want to believe that they're being controlled by something else or another being. I guess I believe we have this fear that we can't control our own lives and the decisions regarding it. We don't want to feel like puppets on a string.


I was referring to the notion humans subconsciously believe that we alone can control our decisions on any matter without outside influences. When you get a person caught between a rock and a hard place, they cry that they don't have a choice, that their ability to choose has been taken from them. And I agree with you that they'll blame it on someone else. But lazy is not the term to use. I think a better term is denial.

As for the second post, I misunderstood your question as I thought you were asking for the definition in this context.

I know I believe that all men should be held accountable for the actions with the punishment determined by mitigating and aggravating circumstances.
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

Ashu wrote:I'm waiting Semper! ](*,)


I am getting there.. this is actually like an essay lol. and my forum time has been diverted elsewhere... it's on 2000 words at the moment, and I am only at replinorbes post... :lol:
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

:shock: awesome i look forward to reading it and poking lots of holes 8)
Flow with it


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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

lol well here my thoughts.

*takes a sip of irn bru*

The question of free will is whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions and decisions. Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between freedom and cause, and determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic.

The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. In the scientific realm, it may imply that the actions of the body.

We as humens ave free will to have the choice to do something for expample

1. If you was told to kill some => you didnt do it go to A.
=> you did do it go to B.

A. say after 3 years of your life your father/mother was killed by that person you where told to kill he wouldnt of done it if he was dead.

B. you could save alot of lives but also take one and ruin alot of lives wich is better.

Free will is there but EVERY choice you make effects Millions of people.
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

well said.
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

Thanks
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

Nice going, sammy. :D
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

I know im good when does the legue start???
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

Thriller wrote:There are different types of determinism, It wasn't very clear in your post but i take it you are taking the hard line and saying choice is an illusion.
Aye.. I know there are different types. I am taking a hard lined version, yes.
Even though the evidence you presented doesn't disprove the existence of free will. Your argument only shows that we are influenced by previous experience.
Why do you say that? Don't just say it lol.. give us something to work with. I am fully aware that this is not a topic I a lone could prove or disprove. :wink

I don't think you really grapsed what death was saying.
Oh here we go... lol. I promise to keep it civil, if you do this time..however, lets avoid *points to comment above* more situations like that, let's put our money where our mouth is..
i'll explain my take with an example.
Ok.. go on...
when you fire a beam of light at a screen using double-slit apparatus it does not arrive at a single point, nor do the photons arrive in a scattered pattern like bullets fired by a fixed gun at a distant target.

The light arrives in different concentrations at separated points. The distribution of how the light will hit the screen can be calculated reliably. So in a sense, the behavior of light in this apparatus is deterministic, but there is no way to predict where an individual photon will make its contribution (scale predictable/ sequence not)
[-X
Ah... nnn..no no no no...the argument here, is not about predicting what something will do when it is caused. It is about whether it is being caused by something external to itself. We can never predict what a human will do because there are soo many different possibilities. What we can do though.. is question why they did something and did they do it because they 'chose' to do it without being caused to so, or, and this is what I am saying... because something made them do it.

In the case of your photons...the person splitting the light has put those photons in that situation to contribute. Just because we humans cannot predict where it will happen, does not mean we have not caused it to happen. As you so rightly put it.. we just don't know..so we say random.. :lol: At the same time though.. we're talking about humans, not the universe science and everything in it... we don't maintain photons are sentient beings that claim free will now do we?

In the same way..big group of people, all huddled together. Bad smell (someone farted!).. this in time will cause them all to leave the group. The individual differences, created by our own biological disposition, which has been put that way due to environment, AND our psychological disposition, again made the way it is.. by our empirical knowledge, which comes from the environment will all effect when each person leaves the group. They will make a choice, not because they can.. but because the brain with all these factors calculates something unpleasant (and of course will link the bad smell to something potentially harmful so will activate that idea of self preservation and move..). Our actions are determined not by this 'soul' or qualia made character... but by our biology and cognitive psychology and the environment.

Now as far as I am concerned... that's no free will. Free will would be, purely and utterly...I like this, or I don't... no reason behind it. A simple, unaffected choice of the moment arising from, I don't know where, a soul.. a base line character or collection of feelings that are abstract from the physical reality. It's also not free will by definition, as our environment, an external factor has externally determined the choice.

Do this remove the ability of choice? It does not by definition, but the definition of choice, replies heavily upon the idea of free will. Does having alternative outcomes, really make it free will? Do we really make the choice in the true sense of the word when we use it.. or is the choice, just a part of the process? Does how the decision is made, make it choice, or can (to borrow a phallic example from Thriller) does a computer have free will, it chooses how to operate and run when in the home. The programmers might have created the hardware it uses..but they don't pull the strings when the computer is actually operating, their legacy and impression does. Much in the same way the environment does on us. (A bit more food for thought there.. as this is a discussion after all! :-D )


Newton was a cool guy Can't say I knew him all that well, we exchanged pleasantries at a county fair on one occasion, but he kept dropping apples on my head and mentioning something about gravity, so we never got a long. but the principles he developed are in no way THE manual, to how the universe operates Semper. I am pretty sure the idea of Cause and Effect was developed before Newton...It's like thousands of years old dude...unless you are referring to your particle physics jobby from above...

I digress.... You are right, scientific principles are not the hard line infallible manual by any means, and you insult my intelligence by implying I would think that... naughty naughty.. lets remember here, who is smarter eh? *points at self* :wink: HOWEVER, if you want to throw that out there, and really evolve the issue of doubt, then it really only leads us to say nothing is certain, and it is an infinite regress to solipsism...(As I said in the first post..)

I mean, logically...cause and effect is sound. More hard line philosophically thinking.. cause and effect is not sound. Just because one cause makes one effect, does not mean it will do that, in exactly the same way ever again even if we saw it happen like that a million million times in the same way. It is also a bit silly to just presume there are no, uncaused causes..

so instead of using what we don't know from science, philosophy etc etc ie.. a way to predict the photon thingy, whether anything except 'doubt' itself exist's... we need to stick to what we DO know with some assumptions and use that to debate with (I think you're smart enough to get what I mean by that.. obviously we do know we don't know a way to predict how the photon will act :? ). Ultimately there is no answer to this argument, as there is to very few others...but we do it for amusement, and everyone is not as ignorant as your messages imply. :-)


It's not all linear cause and effect, there are some very random elements in play in the universal theatre that we are just starting to understand or have yet to discover.


Duh... :roll:

RepliMagni wrote:Sorry if this doesn't make too much sense....about to go to bed, so this may be nonsense..... Okie Dokey!

It seems you're advocating a theory much akin (and probably a part of) biological reductionism - in the sense that all our actions, all our thought processes, everything we are and do, can essentially be reduced to biological/chemical processes that determine what we "choose". I am using inspiration from there yes... :) I have a major problem with this kind of reductionist thought - it fails to take into account complexity theory or ideas of emergence and chaos theory - events happen in the social world which cannot simply be reduced ad infinitum - social theory needs to take into account thermodynamic mathematics rather than Newtonian ideas of linear progression. Our biology influences us, for example if we have naturally high levels of testosterone, but that doesn't make us fight every person we see. Indeed it does not, but it increases aggression, increasing the odds and in certain circumstances it would cause just that. However, that is still, by definition at least free will, as testosterone is internal...but it does lead me back to environment, which I mentioned in reply to Thriller above...

However.. Complexity Theory - Maths and computer problem solving (I think?) Computers are trisky buggers, but if I am understanding you right.. your implication here is.. the brain is a computer (like I referred to in my opening post).. however algorithms are not the only suggested theory for the human mind to solve problems...

Again, it's internal when dealing with humans (so this is a bit of bleh, lol)...we have Problem Space Theory and things like the Gestalt Approach that go beyond just algorithms, fully into heuristics and restructuring. Have a ganders at Newell and Simon's works and their GPS, 1949, 1979 and 1990 I think it is... it is a way to quantify how our mind process the information and our way of perception to mitigate problems. It's levels of chemical hormones and neurone activity that gives us these senses of qualia and things like the minds eyes, the concepts of memory. However, individual differences do effect our rationality (ergo the problem with the GPS), an example here is emotional responsiveness... is part of our individual differences, however it has an effect on our rationality..which of course if addressing the problem we have.. free will and all.. BUT! if you look at Tversky and Kahneman, 1982 I think.. then they have this 'framing effect' theory, and they can.. by using external means get people to solve a problem in a certain way.

We're dealing with Cognitive Psychology above though, and thats a bit of a heavy area to get into, then again so is particle physics and computers in general! :lol:

Idea of Emergence - I liked this one, that everything is constantly getting more complex (beat me around the face later if I am wrong...) That's fair.. but surely things have a natural peak? Its a presumption I am throwing out there just for an opinion. However.. when addressing this.. perhaps so, perhaps...the truer sense of free will may one day emerge, but reducing it as far as we can, only increases the knowledge and understanding surrounding something, opening new doors and questions.. apparently the universe is infinite.. so is this not a natural progression anyway?

Chaos Theory - I will give you, was a toughy to one to get my head around. It seemed to be saying, things are in order, but they're not..which just lead me to believe physicist's have no clue what they're on about. However, I read on..and I think it's actually a proof for determinism, no? The links, between the events may not be able to be proven, or linked! Alas, though there is a causal nature implied, especially if you use the butterfly effect as a thought. The series of events come from a starting condition that is 'sensitive' to input, I believe was implied. That is reducing the entire concept to a very different level. At the same time though.. for it to occur inside humans, our biological systems, again its a different system than choice, is it not? I did struggle with this bad boy lol.. I am not going to lie, Physics are not my strong point, so if I have gone off on some 'random' (lol) tangent that makes no sense.. do say so.


As for social interaction affecting our "choices" - of course society moulds us, shapes our decisions all the time. But they are decisions nonetheless. We decide which cognitive processes upon to act, which ones to ignore. Why do people act differently in a crowd? Because of levels of interaction; people act differently under certain social conditions, but the choice to do something isn't suddenly removed. If you don't believe in free will, if you think everything is decided by the natural and social contexts upon which they happen, does that remove blame on the person? Is it a valid defence to hit lots of people and then claim you have high levels of testosterone? Will it stand up in court to say that "my friends told me to do it"?
Which ones we choose to ignore id decided by our character, which has been created by the environment. Ergo.. our memories.. our empirical knowledge make the choice for us, and they have all originated from our enviroment, from our observational learning and rational (which is only accessible because of the external environmment (why don't we remember things from 0-5? Or much of it.. other than several images? A main theory is that we cannot because of our lack of knowledge, emotion and the likes.. ((another is a freudian theory of suppression.. I am somewhat sceptical about this though as the implication is a rationalist theory - within the terms of epistemology of course))).

You could very well say that your friend told you to do it, and the likes. but if you don't get punished, you do not learn.. you do not become an example to others. Memory is not reliant on free will. Behaviour is.. and with or without free will negative feedback still would have an effect.


*Sorry if I went off on one and didn't relate to the topic at hand....I'm so tired* :P



have by no means replied to everyone.. but at long last.. I have replied!
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

I wasn't really making an argument i was just clarifying a post of someone else semps.

illustrating how it is impossible and illogical to say that choice is an illusion. But it is fun to speculate on.


Chaos theory predicts events through probability. Since a deterministic series of events for predicting outcomes may not exist or is unable to be acounted. This form of higher mathmatics was evolved to help calculate the outcomes of events evolved in advanced physics calculations.

eg. eg their is a 40% chance A will happen and a 60% B will happen, since both events have potential to manifest and are not exclusive. They both need to be included in higher and/or more inclusive calculations. (to put it very simply...just for you :lol:Mr. phsych major )

P.S how do you keep up with your 10 hrs of class a week?
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

I feel the whole issue of free will is a confused one, brought on by people combining a "common sense" idea of free will (i.e. one which has not been thought out in a philosophical way) with the philosophical doctrine(s) of determinism.

The traditional idea of free will is something like this: being unrestrained in your choices by any factor which is not under your control.

When you think about it, this definition turns out to be nonsense.

To be unrestrained by anything would mean that you're not restrained by your own beliefs, character, experiences - anything that makes up the "self". For the self itself is beyond our conscious control: it is a result of our genes and our experiences, neither of which we have control over.

So a "choice" that was made with no restraint would be completely unformed - there could not be any reason for it, for this odd definition of free will takes it that if something has a reason then it is determined, and thus not free.

But this would mean that, under this definition of free will, "free choice" is the same thing as "random choice". And something random, I would say, is not a choice at all. There is no choice involved in the rolling of a die. A choice which is removed from the self isn't your choice at all.

So if you're using this definition of free will, of course we're not going to not possess it, because it's a load of nonsense.

The problem isn't determinism. The problem is our definition of free will.

I don't have a completely satisfactory definition to provide. However, I would argue that it would be something along the lines of Spinoza's ideas: that free will lies in yourself being the cause of your activity, rather than a cause external to you causing your activity.
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

This arguement reminds me a lot of Tales of the Abyss (PS2 game). They had a religion which could read the memory of the planet, and people relied on it for everything up to and including what they would have for dinner. People's lives had been ruined because of it, including most of the character enemies in the game.

Anyways, the questioning was does the memory of the planet control what people do, or was in merely one interpretation of the future, which could be used as a tool to guide what you should do?

I personally think that free will does exist, though some people exercise less often than they should.
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

Wow. How come i always miss these? Ha.

Right, my two cents. I follow (mostly but not exclusively) Existentialism and i'm fast forming my own ideas about a great many things esoteric and becoming increasingly infuriated by the blockades empiric thought puts up. Admittedly, Empiricism was certainly required to get scientific method to it's current level however sadly, as a whole, the idea has forgotten a sense of epistemology. Personally, due to my Esoterical beliefs about things i'm often met with apparent fear and paranoia from empirical thinkers.

That's my justification of Esoterical thought and epistemic evolution, now onto the juicy stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Experiment_with_Time

It is my belief that the philosophical debate always comes to absurdity because both sides of the argument are true. We live both in and not in a deterministic state. Free will is certainly not as we have previously thought, i think. Freewill (and the amount a being can exert it) depends solely on precognition.

There have been two important experiments concerning this as far as i am aware, with good results. The first is a given fact, i'm sure. 1. When you are shown a rabbit the same areas of the brain light up as when you are simply asked to think about a rabbit. This is determinism in action, in fact it's blatant Dualism, which is just awful. Awful awful, sociopathic, wrong wrong AWFUL dualism. There is no experience of the rabbit in either case - in both cases the experience of a rabbit was brought into reality by some unseen force, coincidentally; you had no freewill. 2. Experiments in time show that, in some cases, the area of the brain will light up before the experience is brought into effect. It's not a very exact science, which is why empiricists hate it with a passion lol. Basically, you have to note the exact time you become aware of a thought, describe the thought and then find the thought pattern on the EEG, SPECT, etc and see what exact time it occured within the brain. In some cases it occurs before the subject became aware of the thought. This is interesting, no?

It's my belief that some of us are simply better at exerting our will upon reality, i believe that (as it says in common law, religion and mythologies) freewill is a gift that humankind is supposed to evolve.

I don't disagree with determinism, but i certainly are not a part of it. I feel it would be a whole lot better out here if folk quickly learned the benefits of taking a responsibilty for the future of their actions in the moment and always respectfully learn to better the moment from the experience of the past. For those who cannot commit to the bravery this entails there is "God's Great Failsafe" - Determinism and, ultimately, dualism.

I, personally, (and this is my opinion alone which i alone am responsible for) feel that dualistical thinking is sociopathic. How is anyone going to behave consistently when they only have two things to consider-
a) Every moment is predefined and you have no way to influence events
and
b) if an event occurs, say murder, by you, in an horrific, brutal and nasty manor, this is simply an event which you were powerless to stop and so therefore you are going to be unjustly punished by the moral good. Your reward for being unjustly treated by humanity in response to events you had no power over all you have to do is admit that someone once died and was made into a link between your self and god. Once you have accepted this, you must apologise (pressumably for the horrific death said link was subject to through this deterministic process) and if you follow this action to the conclusion you will be granted eternal peace upon your death.

Are you mad? You are aligning yourself with the enemy! Eventually, i believe, determinism and organised religion will be looked upon with joviality and utter contempt, respectively. It won't be for a while though, there aren't enough people with the courage to begin shaping our future.

To finish - i feel determinists are like Sith and Jedi. They are both allowing themselves to be some kind of pawn in a battle of good and evil; a battle over which they have no power and no understanding. The truth is, we don't need that fight anymore, we don't need to present any further comparisons. There is enough which happens through human error to base comparisons on. What we need to do is work hard on refining the truth of universal law and of morality.

Ironically, empiricism grants this - we have no way, as yet, of answering this philosophical question, do we have some thing like freewill? So, forget cause and effect and focus on epistemic change in order to observe it's effect upon how we feel about our human condition.

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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

Taure wrote:I feel the whole issue of free will is a confused one, brought on by people combining a "common sense" idea of free will (i.e. one which has not been thought out in a philosophical way) with the philosophical doctrine(s) of determinism.

The traditional idea of free will is something like this: being unrestrained in your choices by any factor which is not under your control.

When you think about it, this definition turns out to be nonsense.

To be unrestrained by anything would mean that you're not restrained by your own beliefs, character, experiences - anything that makes up the "self". For the self itself is beyond our conscious control: it is a result of our genes and our experiences, neither of which we have control over.

So a "choice" that was made with no restraint would be completely unformed - there could not be any reason for it, for this odd definition of free will takes it that if something has a reason then it is determined, and thus not free.

But this would mean that, under this definition of free will, "free choice" is the same thing as "random choice". And something random, I would say, is not a choice at all. There is no choice involved in the rolling of a die. A choice which is removed from the self isn't your choice at all.

So if you're using this definition of free will, of course we're not going to not possess it, because it's a load of nonsense.

The problem isn't determinism. The problem is our definition of free will.

I don't have a completely satisfactory definition to provide. However, I would argue that it would be something along the lines of Spinoza's ideas: that free will lies in yourself being the cause of your activity, rather than a cause external to you causing your activity.


Nice, but i don't think anyone nowadays would be using your first definition of free will, at least i haven't got that sense from reading along. But thanks for bringing up spinoza
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Re: The NONexistence of Free Will. :O!

I very much agree. Well done Taure for bringing up my much loved Spinoza! Danced all over Cartesian Dualism with grace.

You are either a Spinozist or not a philosopher at all - Georg Hegel.
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GhostyGoo wrote:Yesno.
the3rdlibra wrote:if it's a silly turnip head competition you want, i'm going to decline as i think i may have met my match in you vegetable brains.
Cersei Lannister wrote:Debasing? I am not the one drawing crazy pictures of force fielded stick figures.
Energise
Magical Monkeys & Grapefruit Migration:|:Hallowed are the Gò.Ó'ri™ **fixed**
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