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Hitchkok wrote:

Thriller wrote:That place a **Filtered** storm right now and getting a sense of any objective and fair course of action on behalf of the people is probably not really possible. Until some form of representational government is worked out. So social justice will have to wait for order (that's seems to be the course as show by history).

but, does it have to be a representational government?
my point is that self determination "In politics is seen as the freedom of the people of a given territory or national grouping to determine their own political status and how they will be governed without undue influence from any other country." (a wikipedia qoute).
self determination is also considered to be a natural human right.
so if a referendum in Iraq (and again, i'm only taking Iraq as an example) would have shown that the population (and for the sake of argument, let's assume an overwhelming majority, >95%) prefer a monarchy or other kind of dictatorship, we have one human right defeating another (the rights to vote for office and hold office). can any of them be given precedent? and under what justification?

Hitchkok wrote:

Thriller wrote:That place a **Filtered** storm right now and getting a sense of any objective and fair course of action on behalf of the people is probably not really possible. Until some form of representational government is worked out. So social justice will have to wait for order (that's seems to be the course as show by history).

but, does it have to be a representational government?
my point is that self determination "In politics is seen as the freedom of the people of a given territory or national grouping to determine their own political status and how they will be governed without undue influence from any other country." (a wikipedia qoute).
self determination is also considered to be a natural human right.
so if a referendum in Iraq (and again, i'm only taking Iraq as an example) would have shown that the population (and for the sake of argument, let's assume an overwhelming majority, >95%) prefer a monarchy or other kind of dictatorship, we have one human right defeating another (the rights to vote for office and hold office). can any of them be given precedent? and under what justification?

Brdavs wrote:Only one issue there... there isnt really an iraq nation. Nor an afghani nation.

Reallity of the situation is that heavy handed means of solving a minute problem were used. Reality is that west & us especially fail to coprehend is that they`re not dealing with post ww2 germany or japan that allready had a national identity and a statly tradition but a tribal/ethinic jigsaw puzzle that is only ever held together buy supperior force, and most often only nominally.
Nationbuilding is a failure.
The race is now on to install a puppet regieme that will lean "our way".

You could at best argue that western nations have a historic responsibility to help sort out the mess their invasive policies of the past caused by interfering with cultural/national development in those regions.

However the notion of "more civilized nations" that would justify us in spreading the precious "liberty" has been found as innapropriate. The fact this "help towards our way of life" usually costs way more lives than would have been lost otherwise and that the new "government" is never particulary more "poeople/liberty friendly" but only an ally against some other foe etc. it`s hard to argue.

Its realpolitik at its best. I just pitty the dreamers that think "Liberty and justice for all" & "vision of the founding fathers" has any relevance other than a ideological iconography nowadays.

MEZZANINE wrote:Democracy, one of my favorite movie quotes is 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didnt exist' ( Cookie to the first person the gets the movie ). Well I dont believe in the devil or god or any of that stuff but I do believe Democracy is the greatest trick ever pulled by the ruling class to convince people they are free.

The only reason we are trying to install democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan is because occupied countries resist, convince them that they are in control and they become happy little wage slaves, working their lives away to buy the crap we want to sell them.

And the USA, the champion of democracy has the largest slave force in the world, More than 2.1 million people are in jail in the US at any one time, thats is about 1 in every 140 Americans, and they are used as slave labour to make many products from licence plates to combat helmets.



As for WMDs in Iraq, I've heard it said that we thought they had them, BS, we know North Korea has them and is just as dangerous but we dont invade them, we invaded Iraq because we wanted to stop them getting WMDs, if Iraq had managed to get them they could have defended themselves and attack other oil producing nations nearby, if Iraq had invaded Saudi Arabia they would have controlled over 30% of the worlds oil.

Juliette wrote:Democracy is the weak attempt by an incompetent government to shift the blame for everything messy that happens right back to the people who elected them.
REAL democracy, like the Greek did (convene the whole citizenry every 9 days to talk about stuff) doesn't work on a larger scale. Greece required tyrannoi to get their civilization to bloom, as people finally started to look beyond their own generation and into the future. Sadly, that paradigm has shifted back to "What is important for today". Living life on a day-to-day basis leads to piss-poor strategic decisionmaking. I personally blame christianity. If it had not convinced massive hosts of people that we are living in the End Times, we would still be looking to the future. Now it's all "OMG the world is going to end in our generation".. Bah.

And that, is why democracy won't work. We lack the guts to endure a little hardship to gain prosperity for our children's children.

Plant a fig tree, or a vineyard. It will take decades before they produce results. That is what the Greeks did, and that is what shows us they no longer thought about tomorrow, but rather focused on the future. It's a crying shame we lost that.

Thriller wrote:
So you beleive democracy has turned into a tyranny of the ignorant? I can see that... that's why things like education are so important. Also we could use some actual leaders instead of just getting a micro manager in office. I think were going to move past the days of politicians making legislation through a focus group just to stay in power due to the fact the our generation has become disalutioned with the all flash no substance leadership of the past 50 years.

Hitchkok wrote:

Thriller wrote:
So you beleive democracy has turned into a tyranny of the ignorant? I can see that... that's why things like education are so important. Also we could use some actual leaders instead of just getting a micro manager in office. I think were going to move past the days of politicians making legislation through a focus group just to stay in power due to the fact the our generation has become disalutioned with the all flash no substance leadership of the past 50 years.

it hadn't turned.
it was always that why. demos litteraly means "rabble".

Crying NOOOOO wrote:@ mezz - devil's advocate is one of my top 10 all time favorites

Thriller wrote:I beleive the US describes itself as a democratic republic..... you can be both

Article Four of the United States Constitution wrote:“ The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government ”

Thriller wrote:

Hitchkok wrote:

Thriller wrote:
So you beleive democracy has turned into a tyranny of the ignorant? I can see that... that's why things like education are so important. Also we could use some actual leaders instead of just getting a micro manager in office. I think were going to move past the days of politicians making legislation through a focus group just to stay in power due to the fact the our generation has become disalutioned with the all flash no substance leadership of the past 50 years.

it hadn't turned.
it was always that why. demos litteraly means "rabble".

you can't just break down a word to give meaning to your interpration. Etymology doesn't really apply alot of the time

to illustrate my point
"Fornication comes from the word fornix, which means "arch." In Roman times, customers used to identify the brothels by a prominent archway at the entrance. (Coincidentally, we refer to the anterior, posterior, and lateral fornices as components of the uterus, but we also have a fornix in the brain, so interpret that as you will)."

Edit: Also i just looked up the etymology of democracy and it breaks it down to demos (δημος, which means "people") and kratos (κρατος, which means "force" or "power"). where are you getting your translation? Or are you trolling me hitch?