The EU Situation (not an EU bashing thread).

[Cole]

in keeping with the diktat, yeah the EU will fail when Greece leaves the eurozone as it will bring down any confidence whatsoever in the eurozone markets which is already preciously low as it is atm. Any lower and the whole thing could just implode.

as for cole

[spoiler]Yes we have changed our currency in recent years in fact we had an even harder cahnge than you had from Franc to Euro as we decimalized our currency from the shillings, sixpence & Crown etc that it was into Pounds & Pennies and yet everyone in the UK managed no trouble at all and carried on as we could handle doing a lil maths in our head.[/spoiler]

I don't really see why some people are eager with the idea to see the Europe economy fall down (as a consequence of removing the eurozone -not talking about the splitting idea there- which most of you aren't even part of). Not refering to this particular post, but just the general view I get out of some of you.

[spoiler]Off Topic:
As I said, I adapted to the Euro from Franc within few years, was a kid back then. But why would I want the currency to go back to Franc, considering the potential devaluations and changes of conversion ratio. You say the UK changed, but imagine if you had to change back to your previous currency, but with different rates than the ones you left it to your current one?

It's making things more complicated than they are. And again, I don't see what would be your involvement in that, Kit Fox. Ah...yes. Pound would be advantaged and get the upper hand? Don't really see why tbh.[/spoiler]

[Juliette]

[spoiler]Off Topic:
As I said, I adapted to the Euro from Franc within few years, was a kid back then. But why would I want the currency to go back to Franc, considering the potential devaluations and changes of conversion ratio. You say the UK changed, but imagine if you had to change back to your previous currency, but with different rates than the ones you left it to your current one?
It's making things more complicated than they are. And again, I don't see what would be your involvement in that, Kit Fox. Ah...yes. Pound would be advantaged and get the upper hand? Don't really see why tbh.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Off Topic:
That's why I said "tied to the Euro", and not a loose and separate currency. To do that would damage the cooperative purchasing power of the Eurozone.
I proposed fixed conversion rates between Euro and local currency, and a fluctuating Euro. Think of the local currencies as 'local expressions' of the universal currency.[/spoiler]

A European Union without Greece would be (somewhat) similar to a UK without Scotland.. if Greece quits, Turkey should definitely NEVER enter.
If economic strength is used as a measure for membership, Spain, Portugal, Greece, and a few of our eastward possessions should be stripped from the Union as well.

[Cole]

[spoiler]Off Topic:
As I said, I adapted to the Euro from Franc within few years, was a kid back then. But why would I want the currency to go back to Franc, considering the potential devaluations and changes of conversion ratio. You say the UK changed, but imagine if you had to change back to your previous currency, but with different rates than the ones you left it to your current one?
It's making things more complicated than they are. And again, I don't see what would be your involvement in that, Kit Fox. Ah...yes. Pound would be advantaged and get the upper hand? Don't really see why tbh.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Off Topic:
That's why I said "tied to the Euro", and not a loose and separate currency. To do that would damage the cooperative purchasing power of the Eurozone.
I proposed fixed conversion rates between Euro and local currency, and a fluctuating Euro. Think of the local currencies as 'local expressions' of the universal currency.[/spoiler]

A European Union without Greece would be (somewhat) similar to a UK without Scotland.. if Greece quits, Turkey should definitely NEVER enter.
If economic strength is used as a measure for membership, Spain, Portugal, Greece, and a few of our eastward possessions should be stripped from the Union as well.

[spoiler]Off Topic:
Well, if some countries would want to see their former currency back within this form, oh well...but as long as France isn't among them, I'm sort of neutral with it. Even though I would prefer it not to happen as I'm sure it would unfortunately have to be all or none to do that change. I'm personally 100% against a return to Franc from Euro in France...I have various reasons for that and I don't feel it's necessary to go further off topic from this off topic lol. But if it was the only way to save Eurozone and all, oh well I guess I would take this sacrifice and accept it, as some other countries did already sacrifice themselves (Germany for example).[/spoiler]

I am sort of worried about the Greece future if it was to leave us. I went in Greece and saw how things were as it was already in troubles, I would be saddened if they were to go bankrupt.
Turkey in Europe, that would be a bad thing. Even if they were to recognize the Armenian genocide (one of the points required from them if not mistaken), that would still be a bad idea to have them join (it would be offtopic of me to say why).
I am rather worried with the idea of these potentially leaving the Union, bad consequences for the Union itself, but even worse for the leaving ones.

[byrne_1]

Put it like this, EU should not increase membership, letting bloc of countries in at the same time wasn't a good idea any way in the past. Its pay back time for EU as they want to take control of everything.

Turkey being part of EU, is a whole new ball game. EU got enough problems to sort out internally.

[MEZZANINE]

Look at the original EEC membership, the EEC made sense the members all benefited from what what essentially a trade deal.

Look at the current EU membership and the differences between them, its no wonder they dont all benefit from the same rules, currency and interest rates. One size can never fit all.

EEC - Trade deal between countries of comparable economic wealth

EU - Trying to Federate and govern as much territory as possible

This wont end soon, and it wont end well

[Cole]

[spoiler]

Look at the original EEC membership, the EEC made sense the members all benefited from what what essentially a trade deal.

Look at the current EU membership and the differences between them, its no wonder they dont all benefit from the same rules, currency and interest rates. One size can never fit all.

EEC - Trade deal between countries of comparable economic wealth

EU - Trying to Federate and govern as much territory as possible

This wont end soon, and it wont end well

Off Topic:
I agree on only one thing with such arguments: some additions to the EU of the last decade (not talking about the eurozone here and Greece's case; not saying either that *all* of the 2000s additions were a bad idea) were not a good idea in the sense that said countries were not yet ready to join. That, I cannot deny...[/spoiler]

I must add that I lost track with on and offtopic stuff...

[[KMA]Avenger]

This wont end soon, and it wont end well

TBH mate, i can see it coming to a very quick and abrupt end, and i fear what "they" will do to distract us from the inevitable.
The reason i say it will end quickly is because the bailout money is fast running out and all the bailout money is covering is the interest, where's the cash for the principle going to come from?

I must add that I lost track with on and offtopic stuff...

Actually, i'm surprised that after 2 pages the discussion is still pretty civil given the nature of the topic

[[KMA]Avenger]

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/245 ... -beg-again

[[KMA]Avenger]

I dunno if you guys have been following what's going on in Greece, but the situation is VERY bad. love it or loath it-i don't see the EU lasting much longer.
1 thing i can see happening, the EU will force it's will more and more on the periphery states in an effort to save itself.

If the Greeks manage to overthrow the Govt, or if the protests/riots continue this will spread to Ireland, Spain, Portugal and quite possibly France and Germany as well since they are holding LARGE amounts of Greek debt.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... tests&aq=f

The above link is a general search: Greek protests.

The links below are from the Alex Jones show interviewing Max Keiser live from Greece with guests George Noulas and Kiriakos Tobras, whose webiste is stopspeculators.gr. both these guys are going after the politicians and the banksters that have shafted Greece and the rest of the EU members.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kssMNSZ7_ZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i0FVplD ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7pLpVd4 ... re=related

Please listen to the above if you want the truth of what's happened.

[MEZZANINE]

Ah yes back to Greece, if the Greek economy collapses we will all feel the knock on effects. Greece owes so much money to banks all over Europe that to w/o these debts would essentially put a lot of our bank back into debt themselves.

Choice right now is bailout Greece or bailout the banks again. Whatever your feelings are on the EU I think everyone prefers Greeks to Bankers lol

[DavyC]

Choice right now is bailout Greece or bailout the banks again. Whatever your feelings are on the EU I think everyone prefers Greeks to Bankers lol

If you look at how the Greeks got themselves into the mess, they don't seem all that different from bankers

Also, the fact the UK did not hold a referendum over the Lisbon Treaty is the fault of UK politicians and not the EU itself. I think Ireland was the only country to hold a referendum, other countries didn't because the leaders knew the populace would reject it. I'm not 100% pre-EU, but it's done a lot for Ireland so screw you guys

[Ashu]

No, if you were for EU you'd be thinking of the larger picture, which includes Ireland, rather than what money they gave you then and now. The concept of EU is to help the countries that are a bit under the development level of say France and Germany and such to get there and to help each other. Right now Greece is in need, help should be offered.
Right now, at this moment the EU is not living up to what it's supposed to, its brought more issues at a collective level and done nothing for the citizens of the countries that comprise it, rather build up the income of a select few.

[Cole]

Right now, at this moment the EU is not living up to what it's supposed to, its brought more issues at a collective level and done nothing for the citizens of the countries that comprise it, rather build up the income of a select few.

I think Brdavs already provided examples that Slovenia (that's at least one country among the newly joined ones which also uses Euro if not mistaken) benefited quite a bit from EU.
Don't remember in which thread, thus I cannot quote those.

[Ashu]

So just one country out of how many bankrupt o just under?

[Cole]

So just one country out of how many bankrupt o just under?

Why assuming one example=only example? That's anti EU assumption.

Also, the overall state of Portugal/Spain before joining EU...well that wasn't really positive (worse than now, and much worse than pre-2008 situation). EU helped quite a bit those two, yes they are in troubles now, but it's because they focused too much on few markets, Spain focus on property sector. Same for Ireland, it did benefit its entry in the EU. Now that troubles come around, many people point out it would be better outside of it. But they tend to forget the multiple downsides to have own currency, when the currency isn't as strong as the pound is, for example.