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Ghost children. My word, man, you are a genius. The transience of childhood with the permanence of existence and the transparency of .. politicians? Although I have to object to your defining a monster as instinctive, without moral compass. Unless I misread that, in which case it is my own competence that is shaky.

You know what are not monsters? Dolphins. There. Had to be said.

Jedi~Tank wrote:

EAT THE WATERMELON wrote:

Jedi~Tank wrote:

EAT THE WATERMELON wrote:if my wife send my ex best frind to kill me id choke her too



if the jedi took my kids when said wife died OF NATURAL CAUSES not my choking her
id go vader and take over the galaxy too


how is he in the wrong?

Retorical, vader went vader before his kids wete born.

wich also proves hes a good man


he was willing to do anything for his wife,

he promised her he would learn to stop death after his mama died

but he got REALY ... vader (for lack of a better term) after his wife passed

At that point he wasnt a good man, he was a fool because he followed the path that led to destruction despite knowing better. He became a good man later on at the end when he repented.

im not sayin he wasnt an idiot, he did some prety messed up stuff... (slaughtering the jedi children who looked up to him for 1)

but he did what he did for what he thought to be a good reason

The Emperor convinced Aniken that his wife was going to die and told him the only way to save her was to join him and use the 'dark side' to gain the power to give/sustain life.

Aniken had already lost his mother, and fear of losing his wife drove him to do the unthinkable...... kill the younglings & turn on his own.



If you watched the movies it was made clear that the reason Jedi's are not allowed to have wives & kids was for exactly this reason.... because loving someone enough to do anything to save them inevitably leads to abusing the power they had.

So really Aniken was certain to go bad from the moment he fell in love........... kinda like an Adam & Eve forbidden fruit angle, only when he left the garden of Eden he came back with a bulldozer and turned it into a wasteland lol

MEZZANINE wrote:The Emperor convinced Aniken that his wife was going to die and told him the only way to save her was to join him and use the 'dark side' to gain the power to give/sustain life.

Aniken had already lost his mother, and fear of losing his wife drove him to do the unthinkable...... kill the younglings & turn on his own.



If you watched the movies it was made clear that the reason Jedi's are not allowed to have wives & kids was for exactly this reason.... because loving someone enough to do anything to save them inevitably leads to abusing the power they had.

So really Aniken was certain to go bad from the moment he fell in love........... kinda like an Adam & Eve forbidden fruit angle, only when he left the garden of Eden he came back with a bulldozer and turned it into a wasteland lol

my point exactly

Anakin held a belief, what you are suggesting is whether belief has an overriding factor on societal norms and socially acceptable behavior, of course such a "belief" is held by many who for better or worse live their lives according to the dictates of one religious sect or another. The problem with that is Anakin was supposed to believe in the tenants of the jedi order, and failing to do so caused him to turn to a far less difficult path, one that ultimately led to his death. Of course the general population lives by a set of laws that we deem necessary and attempt as best we can to curb the population and corral them into a definition of normal that does not truly exist thereby giving people a hope for safety. When i wake up more perhaps I will continue to think on this. Is personal belief more important than societal beliefs

Angnoch wrote:Anakin held a belief, what you are suggesting is whether belief has an overriding factor on societal norms and socially acceptable behavior, of course such a "belief" is held by many who for better or worse live their lives according to the dictates of one religious sect or another. The problem with that is Anakin was supposed to believe in the tenants of the jedi order, and failing to do so caused him to turn to a far less difficult path, one that ultimately led to his death. Of course the general population lives by a set of laws that we deem necessary and attempt as best we can to curb the population and corral them into a definition of normal that does not truly exist thereby giving people a hope for safety. When i wake up more perhaps I will continue to think on this. Is personal belief more important than societal beliefs

yes

most definitly, but let me rephrase myself.... im not saying he was right but he did what he felt best to protect his family, at any cost, ofcorse it backfired and all but if you thought going evil would save your smokin hot wife who was carrying your children..... wouldnt you do the same?

EAT THE WATERMELON wrote:if my wife send my ex best frind to kill me id choke her too



if the jedi took my kids when said wife died OF NATURAL CAUSES not my choking her
id go vader and take over the galaxy too


how is he in the wrong?

Dont know how you're agreeing with me and others who said totally different things to you lol

He was in the wrong

1) He joined the Jedi knowing the rules and broke them

2) He should have taken what the Emperor told him to the Jedi, they would have told him the truth that the Emperors could not save his GF and none of the bad stuff would have happened

3) He murdered children for the sake of a lie, didnt even get proof that it would help him save his GF


Basically a naive teenager with to much power committed murder, turned on his friends and started a war which killed millions just because he couldnt keep it in his pants. TBH most teenagers would do the same, so thank whatever god you believe in they dont have such power

EAT THE WATERMELON wrote:

MEZZANINE wrote:The Emperor convinced Aniken that his wife was going to die and told him the only way to save her was to join him and use the 'dark side' to gain the power to give/sustain life.

Aniken had already lost his mother, and fear of losing his wife drove him to do the unthinkable...... kill the younglings & turn on his own.



If you watched the movies it was made clear that the reason Jedi's are not allowed to have wives & kids was for exactly this reason.... because loving someone enough to do anything to save them inevitably leads to abusing the power they had.

So really Aniken was certain to go bad from the moment he fell in love........... kinda like an Adam & Eve forbidden fruit angle, only when he left the garden of Eden he came back with a bulldozer and turned it into a wasteland lol

my point exactly

Ok so his cause was noble in the minds of romantics..but he sought the power he needed at the expense of everyone else. Thats not good, thats selfish, thats greed, thats bad.


Remember what yoda said when Annakin asked about the someone he knew with a problem...." you must train YOURSELF to let go of everything you fear to lose".

Why did he say that? Because jedi are forbidden to marry? Or was it sound advice to a young man that had so much potential to be a savior or a destroyer?

hmmm...

...

...

Im pretty sure this is a rather opinionated discussion about how Anakin/Vader was wrong/right. Its a matter of opinion clearly, and I personally dont think anything is wrong other than the fact Jedi lie, and bend the truth to what they believe, and the Sith use the force "freely" and that is frowned upon by the self-righteous (and arrogant) jedi.

I do not think Anakin was wrong in what he did, he had almost nothing left of a life he clearly wanted to keep. He had nightmares his wife would die during childbirth, he wanted to save her. Sidious picked up on these feelings, told a story of his mentor (and how he killed him) giving anakin slight hope that she could be saved. Sidious did say she could not be saved by any Jedi/lightside techniques. A confrontation between the two happened that night.

Anakin told Mace Windu (Master of lightsaber combat), and Windu went to arrest the guy, when that happened Anakin "needed" sidious to save his wife. That much is clear (and if anybody knows anything bout sidious, he didnt actually die fully at death star in epi6). Anakin had to save Sidious so he could save his wife, which is not what happened, because of this Anakin turned in hopes to gain favor and learn this technique before his children are born, even if it meant killing his best friend and everyone who trusts and looks up to him.

It makes sense to me at least why he did what he did. He had all the best intentions, though he probably could have done it a better way. Genocide of an enemy you need isnt the best way, but it was damn efficient for around 25 years. The fact he redeemed himself in the end, makes it all better.

seriously though, go read the comics. lots of information in there you cant get from movies. Great during quiet times, and waiting for turn changes.