Go Yankies!

[El TC]

If anyones gonna drop a nuke in that reagion it's gonna be the chosen ppl.

Yeah, somehow ppl forget what the Americans did to Japan in WW2, considering how they lynched Saddam, not saying it was wrong, just mentioning it, for poisoning a couple of thousand ppl? pale in comparison

[Cole]

imagine how easier it would have been to just drop a nuke on iraq.

That would mean:
_bush is new hitler
_new sep 11 attacks
_chaos?

some ppl agree to that, though if i recall wasnt it the americans that nuked japan?

the sep 11 attacks wouldnt be so bad, theyd be limited to 1 a year and theyd know what date to increase security.

theres that already isnt there?

_But that wouldnt be some, but most agreeing it in that situation
_who said they would be limited to 1/year?
_Obviously you don't see what kind of chaos I mean...like Matrix's real world for picturing it!!

[Londo Mollari]

comparing numbers of nucleur weapons and numbers of troops etc. America has the most powerful military in the world. End of story. However, dropping a nuke in, say, Baghdad won't kill nearly as many people as nuking New York for example would. If war broke out then America doesn't need to resort to nukes, the Americans have a non-nuclear bomb capable of obliterating 9 city blocks

America do have military superiority, however the first country to launch missles would probably win!

[El TC]

America do have military superiority

I agree, but it doesn't help flying with F-18's and having lazer guided missiles and emp's if your enemy lives under ground, doesnt use computers and is used to the environment, i.e. see Vietnam.

What did it take to hijack those planes and fly into the towers? High tech gadgets? military superiority?


Why, with all this superiority, can they not subdue the insurgency?

And then have the nerve to threaten Iran and NK?

Sorry, but Americans are not fighters, they can not handle war, if they would go to war against NK, America would fall and they know that

[Cole]

America do have military superiority

I agree, but it doesn't help flying with F-18's and having lazer guided missiles and emp's if your enemy lives under ground, doesnt use computers and is used to the environment, i.e. see Vietnam.

What did it take to hijack those planes and fly into the towers? High tech gadgets? military superiority?


Why, with all this superiority, can they not subdue the insurgency?

And then have the nerve to threaten Iran and NK?

Sorry, but Americans are not fighters, they can not handle war, if they would go to war against NK, America would fall and they know that, everyone knows that cept G.W. and well, you.

NK have military mind, but we know the principal reason why US doesnt go after them, it is called China!!

[CRASSUS]

no its called they can bio launch missles against soul/seul and the millions of innocents their...

[CrimsonFrost]

Edit: Discussed and re-opened.

[El TC]

thanxs Crimson

[Emma Desala]

Persia Will Survive.
You know, Persia is rather much older then US.

It has survived Muslimfundamentalists, Mongols, Hindus, Opium, Nukes, Christians, Generic Heathens and a whole bunch of Commies and Capis.


Iran technically is one of THE most stable countries in M-E. Believe me, my father has been there for quite some time.
Both my pa and grandpa was there during the days of the Shah.
Pearl of the Middle-East indeed.


Then again, evil must be exterminated. Long live Bush.
Long live Putin, who will at any moment stop Bush from striking at Iran with the consent of the Security Council.



Regards,

[El TC]

I doubt the Security Council will give its consent and Putin offered Iran technology and enriched uranium for the sole purpose of providing for their energy needs which they declined. If they need it only for their own needs and not weapons, why did they not accept this offer? A proud people?

[Emma Desala]

Proud and self-sufficient.

Iran does not really NEED America, considering that it can trade with a whole lot of other countries. Also it is one of the most diverse countries in the M-E.

As for the SeCo, they would not submit again, but they've condemned Persia already. 'tis a sad sad story.

If Bush's bombards break ANY of Iran's archaeological treasures (like some of the more vandalous and infantile mess-ups did in Iraq) I'll personally go there and tell the General in charge to lay off.


Btw, Iran can simply win this whole by playing the Vietnam card from the start. Not fight. Sitdown-demonstrations and all. Not to mention the very powerful Persian presence on the Internet!

No, Iran is a tougher nut to crack for our Superheroes.
At NO point I mean to offend anyone.


Regards,

[CrimsonFrost]

America do have military superiority

I agree, but it doesn't help flying with F-18's and having lazer guided missiles and emp's if your enemy lives under ground, doesnt use computers and is used to the environment, i.e. see Vietnam.

What did it take to hijack those planes and fly into the towers? High tech gadgets? military superiority?


Why, with all this superiority, can they not subdue the insurgency?

And then have the nerve to threaten Iran and NK?

Sorry, but Americans are not fighters, they can not handle war, if they would go to war against NK, America would fall and they know that, everyone knows that cept G.W. and well, you.

NK have military mind, but we know the principal reason why US doesnt go after them, it is called China!!

I would have to point out that North Korea has burned their bridges right now by their supposed nuclear testing not too long ago. This test has alienated them from the Chinese whom specifically instructed them not to do so. (Along with international condemnation.)

Here are my thoughts if we got into either a war with North Korea or with Iran. (This is after some discussion and doing "What if" scenarios on military simulators with my Army Counter-Intel buddy whom has a Masters in Military Warfare.)

North Korea

If we went into battle with North Korea, it would be a literal slaughter for both sides. Because of the armstice and the lack of desire for a major assault on Korea, most of the battle hardended troops have been moved to more active places such as Afghanistan and Iraq. Both sides have been building up arms for years on both sides of the DMZ and heavily invested in artillery, etc. The initial artillery barrage will be devastating, causing easily tens of thousands of casualties on both sides. North Korea will have to rely on a lightning quick strike that does not lose momentum to take South Korea. (ie the blitzkrieg technique of the Germans back in World War II.) However, in the instance of an attack by the US, the only real force they face is intense patriotisim by certain NK elements. The majority of the people are starving, lack medicene and are generally ignorant of worldly politics / materials because of the isolationist policies of Kim Jong Il. The military lacks any real military experience considering they haven't been at war for nearly 50 years. (Most men of any wartime experience are dead or unfit to fight.) Once the military is defeated, civilians may not exactly welcome the US with open arms, but they will not fight either.

With that said, China will probably silently turn its head if the US invaded North Korea on the unsaid idea that the US does not invade it's borders and that the US does not establish a formalized control over NK. (ie looking for a new leader to rise up that is recongized by the international community as not being a puppet of the US.) The US can thank this to Kim Jong Il not listening to China and conducting nuclear tests. (Along with his increasing loss of sanity such as declaring himself a god of sorts.)

The only real chance that Kim Jong has is to use his extensive chemical, biological or nuclear weapons against the US. If this happens and is seen on international news, the US will immediately decimate whatever city that Kim Jong Il is staying in with nuclear weapons. (It is partially the reason that China doesn't support NK as much, they probably secretly fear that NK is more then willing to use WMD's.)

In either case of conventional assault, or CBR attack, North Korea will lose. The majority of their food comes from China, the majority of their money from ilict trade such as with Iran and black market dealings. They will not be able to fight a sustained war against the US.


Iran

A battle with Iran would be a quite different scenario then with North Korea. While NK has an isolationist policy and a leader with hardly much sanity left, Iran is an established country with solid leadership and a strong national religion. They have experienced troops whom fought in the fairly recent war with Iraq, they have battle hardend terrorists and insurgents that good combat experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, and through ilict / illegal deals have much better technology then North Korea. (Not nearly as much as the US, but enough to pose a threat.) They also have CBR weapons, but will probably not use them unless they feel they are on the brink of defeat. (Or unless they can manufacture a US CBR attack and try to use it as an excuse.) Other Middle Eastern countries will probably support Iran because they will feel that this is an expansionist policy by George Bush to establish American influence in the Middle East. It is also quite possible that the current president would launch a nuclear attack on Israel.

They are a stronger foe then North Korea, but in a battle with the US they would lose. The US has much better technology on their side, and nullifies Iranian guerilla tactics because nearly the entire US military has become battle hardend from over 3 years of fighting in Iraq / Afghanistan while learning how to fight in an urban warfare scenario. Along with soldiers already there who could launch a pre-emptive assault, naval units are already available to surprise bombard Iran. A full out attack on Iran is unlikely, and will likely be restricted to CIA Paramilitary and Special Forces units. (Or joint attacks with Israeli Mossad and SPECOPS units.)

The only reason the US could lose the war in Iran would be the same reason the war in Iraq is difficult. Short attention spans. Because of the short attention span of Americans, they get tired of war after a set amount of time that does not involve national defense or an absolutely solid reason to hit back hard. (ie Pearl Harbor, 9/11, etc.) The media whom is generally considered a liberal entity will continue to erode public support for any war through a constant barrage of negative comments regarding the war, such as body counts, highlights of terrorist attacks, interviewing "prominent terrorists" etc.

If the US public continues support of the US military, they will destroy the Iranian military and paramilitary completely. But it will take time, and money. (Along with the will to stick it out.) Al-Qaeda knows this which is why they wage a relentless media assault by allowing people such as CNN reporters to interview them, take pictures, broadcast their beheading videos, etc. Osama Bin Laden has long since recongized the only way to beat the US military is by eroding public support. (Which he has failed due to 9/11.) This tactic has been adopted in Iraq, and is obviously beginning to have an effect.

Although there hasn't been much fanfare, the terrorists in Iraq have already essentially been defeated. Most of the violence now involves the Shia and Sunni conflicts; A conflict begun by the terrorists as a last ditch tactic to embroil the military in a civil war. The US will win the war in Iraq with the continued support of the American people and funding.

May I point out regarding Vietnam that the NVA were essentially beaten. The real reason the US lost we because of the same reason I espoused before: Loss of US public support. People grew tired of the war, or were vocal opponents of it towards the end. Because of this along with a cutoff of funding from Congress, the South Vietnamese were ruthlessly slaughtered and Vietnam became a communist state. (Hm, who is usually espousing anti-war views? Thanks a lot liberals.) So the "Vietnam quagmire" scenarios are self defeating. With continued funding and US support, the South Vietnamese would have triumphed. (On a side note, I'd love to see the Phoenix Program re-enacted in Iraq as was in Vietnam.)

Finally on the nuclear bombing of Japan.. This can be a touchy subject for some people, but I agree with it being done. It was horrific without a doubt, and I don't advocate it being used as anything but a final tactic. Analysts at the time told the War Department that an assault on Japan itself would easily number over a million Allied casualties. If I am at war with another country, and I realized that dropping a bomb would save over 1 million of my countryman's lives, you better be damned sure I will drop that bomb. May I also point out that after the first bomb was dropped, Japan STILL did not surrender. That is the how far they were willing to take things. 3 days later, the 2nd nuclear bomb, "Fat Man" was dropped. After all of these horrific casualities, Japan yet STILL would not surrender. It wasn't until over a week later the Emperor finally conceded defeat after the Soviets killed over 1 million Japanese troops in Manchuria.

It's easy for us to denounce the nuclear attacks of Japan, but try talking with a World War II vet instead about it before deciding that. Or better still, ask your grandparents who probably would have been conscripted to fight in that horrendous assault on the Japanese mainland. Our nuclear bombing was the right thing to do.

Whew, this was a much longer post then I initially expected to make, but I had quite a conversation with my buddy and feel pretty strongly on these subjects.

Even if you disagree, I hope you got some interesting tidbits of info out of it.

[El TC]

North Korea

If we went into battle with North Korea, it would be a literal slaughter for both sides. Because of the armstice and the lack of desire for a major assault on Korea, most of the battle hardended troops have been moved to more active places such as Afghanistan and Iraq. Both sides have been building up arms for years on both sides of the DMZ and heavily invested in artillery, etc. The initial artillery barrage will be devastating, causing easily tens of thousands of casualties on both sides. North Korea will have to rely on a lightning quick strike that does not lose momentum to take South Korea. (ie the blitzkrieg technique of the Germans back in World War II.) However, in the instance of an attack by the US, the only real force they face is intense patriotisim by certain NK elements. The majority of the people are starving, lack medicene and are generally ignorant of worldly politics / materials because of the isolationist policies of Kim Jong Il. The military lacks any real military experience considering they haven't been at war for nearly 50 years. (Most men of any wartime experience are dead or unfit to fight.) Once the military is defeated, civilians may not exactly welcome the US with open arms, but they will not fight either.

With that said, China will probably silently turn its head if the US invaded North Korea on the unsaid idea that the US does not invade it's borders and that the US does not establish a formalized control over NK. (ie looking for a new leader to rise up that is recongized by the international community as not being a puppet of the US.) The US can thank this to Kim Jong Il not listening to China and conducting nuclear tests. (Along with his increasing loss of sanity such as declaring himself a god of sorts.)

The only real chance that Kim Jong has is to use his extensive chemical, biological or nuclear weapons against the US. If this happens and is seen on international news, the US will immediately decimate whatever city that Kim Jong Il is staying in with nuclear weapons. (It is partially the reason that China doesn't support NK as much, they probably secretly fear that NK is more then willing to use WMD's.)

In either case of conventional assault, or CBR attack, North Korea will lose. The majority of their food comes from China, the majority of their money from ilict trade such as with Iran and black market dealings. They will not be able to fight a sustained war against the US.

I just want to extend my previous points a bit more with some data here, hope it doesn't get too boring

NK is about the only nation which can engage the US in a TOTAL war. They simply cannot be called a weak nation or impoverished nation purely because they are the only mation to face down a military superpower as the US.

NK's war plan in case of US attacks is total war with the US, not a regional conflict. NK expects no help from its allies China and Russia and I doubt Russia or China would get involved in this war if it ever happened to begin with. NK's war plan further calls for TOTAL DESTRUCTION of the USA. If the US uses a preemptive strike against NK's nuclear facilities they will answer with WMD's against US targets.

All nations keep their military capabilities a secret. It is nearly impossible to make out NK's capabilities simply because it is nearly impossible to plant any US agents in NK for obvious reasons and since all their comms is underground, no US spy plane or satellite has ever reached a conclusive result about their capabilities.

Apart from that, it is however possible to draw some general conclusions from information obtained.

1. NK makes its own weapons

North Korea has annual production capacity for 200,000 AK automatic guns, 3,000 heavy guns, 200 battle tanks, 400 armored cars and amphibious crafts. North Korea makes its own submarines, landing drafts, high-speed missile-boats, and other types of warships. Home-made weaponry makes it possible for North Korea to maintain a large military force on a shoestring budget.

2. NK soldiers are highly motivated

North Korean soldiers are taught to fight to the bitter end. In September 1996, a North Korean submarine got stranded at Kangrung, South Korea, and its crew abandoned the ship. Eleven of the crew committed suicide and the rest fought to the last man except one who was captured. In June 1998, another submarine got caught in fishing nets at Sokcho and its crew killed themselves. Such is the fighting spirit of North Korean soldiers.

3. NK is combat ready

North Korea's militias consist of 1.6 million self-defense units, 100,000 people's guards, 3.9 million workers militia, 900,000 youth guard units. These militias are tasked to defend the homeland. The militias are fully armed and undergo military trainings regularly.

4. Artillery

North Korea's 170mm Goksan gun and 240mm multiple-tube rocket launchers are the most powerful guns in the world. The big guns are hidden in caves. Many of them are mounted on rails and can fire in all directions. They can rain 500,000 conventional and biochemical shells per hour on US troops near the DMZ. Gen. Thomas A Schwartz, a former US army commander in Korea, stated that the US army in Korea would be destroyed in less than three hours.

5. Tanks

US tanks are designed to operate in open fields.American and Western tank commanders do not know how to fight tank battles in rugged terrains like those of Korea. Tank battles in Korea will be fought on hilly terrains without any close air cover, because North Korean fighters will engage US planes in close dog fights.

North Korea has developed tanks ideally suited for the many rivers and mountains of Korea. These tanks are called "Chun-ma-ho", which can navigate steep slopes and cross rivers as much as 5.5 m deep. North Korea's main battle tanks - T-62s - have 155 mm guns and can travel as fast as 60 km per hour. The US main tanks - M1A - have 120 mm guns and cannot travel faster than 55 km per hour. North Korean tanks have skins 700 mm thick and TOW-II is the only anti-tank missile in the US arsenal that can penetrate this armored skin.

Further more, North Korea began to make anti-tank missiles in 1975 and has been improving its anti-tank missiles for the past 30 years. North Korea's anti-tank missiles are rated the best in the world and several foreign nations buy them. The US army in Korea relies on 72 AH-64 Apache attack helicopters to kill North Korean tanks. Each Apache has 16 Hell-Fire anti-tank missiles. As shown in the recent Iraq war, Apaches are fragile and can be easily shot down even with rifles.
The US army has A-10 attack planes to counter North Korea's mechanized units. In case of war, the skies over Korea will be filled with fighters in close dog-fights and the A-10s would be ineffective.

6. Underground tunnel systems

North Korea is the world most-tunneled nation. Tunnel warfare is conducted by independent company-size units. Tunnel entrances are built to withstand US chemical and biological attacks. Tunnels run zig-zag and have seals, air-purification units, and safe places for the troops to rest. It is believed that North Korea has built about 20 large tunnels near the DMZ. A large tunnel can transport 15,000 troops per hour across the DMZ and place them behind the US troops.

7. Special Forces

North Korea has the largest special forces, 120,000 troops, in the world. These troops are grouped into light infantry brigades, attack brigades, air-borne brigades, and sea-born brigades - 25 brigades in total.North Korea has the capacity to transport 20,000 special force troops at the same time. North Korea has 130 high-speed landing crafts and 140 hovercrafts. A North Korean hovercraft can carry one platoon of troops at 90 km per hour.

How good are North Korea's special forces? Well, remember the submarine that got stranded?. The sub had two special forces agents who had finished a mission in South Korea and were picked up by the sub before the sub ran into a rock. The two men fought off an army of South Korean troops and remained at large for 50 days, during which they killed 11 of the pursuers.

8. WMD's

North Korea is a nuclear state along with the US, Russia, China, the Great Britain, France, India, Pakistan, and Israel. North Korea has succeeded in weaponizing nuclear devices for missile delivery.
North Korea can produce about 100 missiles a year. It began to make missiles in 1980 and has about 1,000 missiles of various types in place, about 100 of which have nuclear warheads. These missiles are hidden in caves and underground launching pads. At present, the US has no fool-proof defense against North Korean missiles, and in case of war, North Korean missiles can do serious damages: several hundreds of thousands of US troops will die, and scores of US bases and carrier battle groups will be destroyed. The Patriot anti-missile missiles are deployed in South Korea but as shown in the recent Iraq war, the Patriots are not 100% accurate or reliable even under ideal conditions.

9. NK's defense against US attacks

North Korea began to build fortifications in 1960s. All key military facilities are built underground to withstand American bunker-buster bombs. North Korea has 8,236 underground facilities that are linked by 547 km of tunnels. Beneath Pyongyang are a huge underground stadium and other facilities. About 1.2 million tons of food, 1.46 million tons of fuel, and 1.67 million tons of ammunition are stored in underground storage areas for wartime use.

Most of the underground facilities are drilled into granite rocks and the entrances face north in order to avoid direct hits by American bombs and missiles. The B-61 Mod 11 is the main bunker buster in the US arsenal. A recent test showed that this buster could penetrate only 6 meters of rock. The latest GBU-28 laser-guided bunker-buster can penetrate to 30m. North Korean bunkers have at least 80 m of top-cover of solid rocks. North Korea has many false caves that emit heats that will misdirect unwary GBU-28/37 and BKU-113 bunker-busters.

Air defense

North Korea has reengineered US shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles captured in Vietnam, and designed its own missile, wha-sung. North Korea began to manufacture wha-sung missiles in 1980. Wha-sung comes in two models: SA-7 that has an effective range of 5 km and SA-16 with 10 km range. North Korea has more than 15,000 wha-sung missiles in place.

In addition to the missiles, North Korea has 12,000 anti-aircraft guns, including 37mm twin-barrel guns, 23 mm automatics, 57mm, 87mm, and 100mm heavy guns. These are mostly manually operated and thus not subject to electronic warfare.

Air

North Korea has three air commands. Each command has a fighter regiment, a bomber regiment, an AN-2 regiment, an attack helicopter regiment, a missile regiment, and a radar regiment. Each command can operate independently. North Korea has 70 airbases, which are fortified against US attacks. Underground hangars protect the planes and have multiple exits for the planes to take off on different runways. North Korea has several fake airfields and fake planes to confuse US attackers.

Korea is 100 km wide and 125 km long, and so US air-to-air missiles would be of limited use and effectiveness, because North Korean MiGs would approach the US planes in close proximity and commingle with US planes, and air-to-air missiles will become useless and machines guns will have to be used. MiG19s have 30mm guns, MiG21s have 23mm guns, and F-14s have 20mm Valkans. North Korean pilots are trained to hug the enemy planes so that air-to-air missiles cannot be used. In contrast, US pilots are trained to lock on the enemy at long distance with radar and fire missiles. US planes are heavily armed with electronics and less agile than the light, lean MiGs that can climb and turn faster than the US planes

11. Electronic warfare

The United States excels in electronic warfare and no nation comes anywhere near the US capability. North Korea began developing its own electronic warfare methods in 1970. It is believed that North Korea has advanced electronic warfare ability. It has numerous counter measures for US electronic warfare. During the recent war in Iraq, the US dropped e-bombs that disabled the Iraqi electronic devices. North Korea relies heavily on non-electronic command and control means, and hence US e-bombs will have limited impacts in North Korea.

North Korea trains about 100 hackers a year and has computer virus battalions in place. These hackers are capable of interrupting US communication networks. In a war game conducted in 1991 by US war planners, North Korea came out the victor with and without nuclear weapons.

Kim Jong Il has no doubt that his army can beat the US army.

Data from Han Ho Suk, A Strategy Of Massive
Retaliations Against US Attacks

[Emma Desala]

Nor do I doubt that.
I always expected the "poor" NK people was faking.


Long live Kim Yonh Il.



Regards,

[~BARBARIAN~]

septic tanks <------- yanks are just war mongerers who believe they have the most powerful army.

which in either case is not the truth..

Bush just wants to cause a little bit more damage before his term is up, but he wont be able to he hardly has any power as it is at the moment.. id love to see amercian troops over in Iran, theyd get wiped out would the yanks...

1 thing the yanks cant play at is guerilla war fare.. they suck at it..

1 thing middle eastern countries good at guerilla war fare.

i do not promote war nor wish for any war to take place.. either.