StarGateWars Forums

First nice to meet the both of you lol, and I will try my best to answer any questions that arise. Thank you both for having good attitudes about this post.

Okay Gods desire for worship and the penalty of Hell. First it is important to look at a very distinct difference in the issue, seeing this distinction should clear up your issue Come_Forth, at least I hope it gives a decent answer. The penalty of hell is not earned based on the lack of man worshiping God it is based on the fact that God is perfect and we are not. Let me explain, If you presupose for a second that there is a God then would he have to be perfect in order to be God? Most religious and secular scholars agree that that is a certainty if there is a God who created everything he is perfect about from that if we are talking about the GOd of scripture then we are indeed talking about a perfect God, if then he is perfect how can we enter in to his Kingdom we would bring imperfection, this is the fundemental idea of sin that sin is to fall short of perfection. So the penalty of Hell is automatic upon our birth as children of sin. So from the start we deserve hell because as I said in the earlier post if given the choice to choose ourselves or God we would choose ourselves. For the purpose of the answer I will avoid the issue of innocent children although if you wish to know I will discuss what I know about that as well. Okay so as you can see Hell (namely mans seperation for enternity from God goodness) is what we deserve from birth but God is merciful and as sent his son to pay the penalty for our sin, here is the catch if I offer you 1billion dollars in a brief case but you do not accept it and you say to me I dont believe there is any money in there so stop annoying me with your lies well then all though you were given the gift you never accepted it, so it could never do anything for you in your life this is how hell works. Hell is what all of us imperfect people deserve from birth. Now many people argue about wether they are indeed sinners but lets be real have you ever meet a perfect person even if someone doesnt act wrong I assure you they have thought wrong at leats lol and come on look around us at what man does to each other and tell me we dont deserve hell.

Let me close with this I am stating Christian Doctrin which I believe to be true, however you are certainly entitled to disagree, I may sound as I write that I am stating facts and I am writting that way because I believe them to be facts, however you have the right to disagree and I would neever take that from you. You may say that it is wong of me to say I am right because that means I am saying you are wrong but flip the statement and you will find that same thing to be true for the [person on the other side who says that what I am doing is wrong lol

Oh yeah and about evidence well there are is a ton morality, nature, creation. All these point to God which I can elaborate on but this post is long enough now

wow this is alot of work lol but I am enjoying it these have been very tough questions I hope I am answering them sufficiently

The choice in the gun example of whether or not to give the person your money is free, but it is weighted because the person will shoot you if the money is not given. In real life it is even more screwed because it is not God who is telling me to worship him or not, but a book that people say is His word.

I'm not sure that example fits with Christianity.
Perhaps a better one would be a loan:
You have the choice of taking out a loan (secular indulgence) and paying the interest... or working through the temporal life with a more selfless, sacrificing outlook - and retiring.

In the robber example - you get nothing for keeping the money but a bullet to the head. In real world, we find ourselves behind the trigger - and usually the greedy man who pulls it gets away with the loot (not speaking terribly literally) - and unless there is another arbiter behind the Grim Reaper, both the victim and killer are condemed.

---------------------------------

You have at least reasoned through your beliefs which I respect. Every belief system has some faith in it the question is whether or not the faith is reasonable. My religion is science, it has faith as well, but I believe that for me it is reasonable.

@ Xeno we always get back to this, secular people can be just as moral just in different ways. When I was a Christian I did not see how people who did not believe in God could be moral, but now I have seen the light so to say. The morals are just different, but both groups are moral.

I am just dropping in to this thread to say howdy. I myself have many arguments and infinite questions, but I personally respect your right to believe. Just not something I impose on myself.

Spacey wrote:

Corran Horn wrote:and: wait till come forth finds this thread

This thread is being considered with implications. As of now, the purpose of this thread is:

WeaponZero wrote:...so the Christians that play this game can have somewhere to come communicate and encourage each other, of course anyone is welcome just be kind. I do not want this to be a place of argument...

That is the topic. Questions and discussions that deviated from those lines have been allowed hesitantly. I will take a stronger stance if needed.

I would like to thank you for keeping an eye on this thread, as i was the one who sent the report to the mods about it

You mods dont get to hear thanks enough so i thought i would send thanks to you

Xeno we always get back to this, secular people can be just as moral just in different ways. When I was a Christian I did not see how people who did not believe in God could be moral, but now I have seen the light so to say. The morals are just different, but both groups are moral.

Aye, we do seem to find ourselves back here a great deal.

You claim that morality is instinctual, and I say that its nature is not the issue. If our morality does not in part arrive from a God or being, then we, on a logical level at least - should pay as little heed to it as the natural functions of birth. Suppress both with pills, and move on.

Again, I am not interested (in a general sense) of the nature of morality, but whether or not I should have any reason to oblige its call.
The way I see it, if you're going to be atheist - you may as well live the high life: but just as not all Christians fully embrace the concept that what they do here can seriously impact their future - not all atheist's embrace their (theoretical) freedom.

-------------------

The Xeno

Aye, we do seem to find ourselves back here a great deal.

You claim that morality is instinctual, and I say that its nature is not the issue. If our morality does not in part arrive from a God or being, then we, on a logical level at least - should pay as little heed to it as the natural functions of birth. Suppress both with pills, and move on.

Again, I am not interested (in a general sense) of the nature of morality, but whether or not I should have any reason to oblige its call.
The way I see it, if you're going to be atheist - you may as well live the high life: but just as not all Christians fully embrace the concept that what they do here can seriously impact their future - not all atheist's embrace their (theoretical) freedom.

That is a great statement C.S. Lewis (chronicles of Narnia and many great Christian Classics) in his book Mere Christianty uses this type of thought process to show that the existance of morality proves there must be a moral law giver, because as you said if we were just animals why would we think murder or rape wrong, because animals certainly dont and yes I understand we have intellect but that should just make us better at those things because if it is as Darwin says the strongest survive then I should be seeking to be the strongest. I also do believe though just incase anyone is wondering that non christians are moral matter a fact I believe all people are moral some just repress the part of them that says dont do that. By the way since I am a pastor I can say this easily, Christians do just as many bad things as non, so this isnt an isue of who acts better since in christian theology none of us are good enough to obtain salvation on our own we are all as dirty rags scripture says.

also Come_Forth

You have at least reasoned through your beliefs which I respect. Every belief system has some faith in it the question is whether or not the faith is reasonable. My religion is science, it has faith as well, but I believe that for me it is reasonable.

If you are a man of science I would love to discuss the debate of intellgent design and Macro Evolution with you. Let me say this though I will discuss the matter from a totally scientific and philosophical approach to be true to the discussion.

Spam Bot

I am just dropping in to this thread to say howdy. I myself have many arguments and infinite questions, but I personally respect your right to believe. Just not something I impose on myself.
I am just dropping in to this thread to say howdy. I myself have many arguments and infinite questions, but I personally respect your right to believe. Just not something I impose on myself.

please feel free to post any questions you amy have and I will do my best to answer them from the limited knowledge I have or from the vast resources of intelligent writters I read lol


also thank you all for stopping in

The danger with religious faith is that it cannot be disproved. Is there anything that would convince you that a god does not exist? Show me evidence of God and my naturalism would collapse.The evidence points to a old universe, but even this does not hamper religious faith because even through the universe “appears” old it is not really since God created things with “apparent age.” If someone believes this then they are putting faith ahead of evidence, it would be like me saying that the universe is only 10 minutes old and everything was just created to look old. Another problem with Intelligent Design is that even it were proven that a designer did exist we would know nothing about the designer. The designer could be Thor, Zeus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. In my eyes the argument from design is flawed because IDers demand a designer for a complex universe, but are satisfied to write off the creation of their god(s). A god would have to be more complex than the creation it created it, so it demands a designer even more than the designed creation. I find it easier to say that in some form the universe has always existed. Ken Miller is a good person to read if you want to see proof of evolution. He is a Christian, but also an Evolutionist. Here is a 5 min. Miller video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1zeWWIm5M

The Xeno wrote:he way I see it, if you're going to be atheist - you may as well live the high life

Of course, I need the threat of hell to behave well.

Come_Forth wrote:...Is there anything that would convince you that a god does not exist? Show me evidence of God and my naturalism would collapse....

I am not religious, but wanted to say, for teh sake of discussion:

It can then be argued, can it be show that God (in whatever capacity; be that Allah, Budda, The father of Jesus Christ, etc.) does not exist.

My life is based in black and white. The sum of observations is what I can make conclusions on, neither saying that proof exists or not, but left saying the results indicate.

All this being said and done: I have seen a great number of strange things in my life. Things that looking back I hoped I had never seen. The only account that I can give for such things is a conspriacy/hoax of such grandeur that baffles my mind to consider.

I can only account for it as being that of a higher power...and all this being said: I'll still conclude that it doesn't come from a religious person.

WeaponZero wrote: If you are a man of science I would love to discuss the debate of intellgent design and Macro Evolution with you.

I don't think opening THAT Pandora box here is a good idea...



I drew the following conclusion:
- Without God's intervention there's no good in ppl.
- God is helping us, regardless of our faith, in being good, moral and decent. But we can reject His helping, we are free, the choice is our to make.
- To be granted God's help is not necessary to believe in him. The desire to be good, moral and decent is sufficient.
- Either God is not helping the souls in Hell in any circumstances, hence no good in them, or they have no wish to be good whatsoever. That's why they're in Hell and cannot get outta there.

Correct?

No Spacey I cannot show that show that some form of god does not exist. I also cannot show that the easter bunny does not exist. Even if a god does exist why should I pray to it or worship it? 30,000 kids starve daily, and their prayers obviously do not get answered. When I listen to prayers that people pray they are simple things that could happen anyway. I have never heard people pray for things that do not happen by chance such as growing a leg back. Even if a prayer is not answered the religious person never doubts, but has some reason why it was not answered. Even if God does not answer the phone people still think that he is there.

Spacey wrote:All this being said and done: I have seen a great number of strange things in my life. Things that looking back I hoped I had never seen. The only account that I can give for such things is a conspriacy/hoax of such grandeur that baffles my mind to consider.

One could argue it's just the chaos theory in action. Again, it's a matter of what we decide to believe in.


Regarding the worshiping:
I think it's like with woman: if you love her, you worship her (at least a tiny bit ). So this comes from within us, we worship God because we love Him, not because He wants us to.

Corran Horn wrote:One could argue it's just the chaos theory in action. Again, it's a matter of what we decide to believe in.

I just responded to a pm and I was considering talking about "Schrodinger's cat"...but decided against it.

I don't know what I believe...form what I hear of "God" (quotations used to represent whatever forum that one would believe in) would let/allow certin things to happen for a 'greater good'. To me that notion does not make sense...again: to me it does not make sense.

I have trouble understanding that two great evils can happen for a good.

IE. (- x) + (-y) = +z , where x may equal y and is less than 0; 0 being the division between good and bad

okay cool there is alot of good discussion I like it lol

The only thing I am itiching to respond to is this quote because it is an issue that all poeple even Christians struggle with why is God not stop evil.

Well I will tell you a story. There was a missionary who went with a small group to the jungles of blank (I dont want to offend any cultures ). Upon arriving he learned quickly that the people were form a very violent heritage and that they were in complete fear and submission to the resident witch doctor. As he learned the language and the culture he discovered something horrific. He had noticed a pregnant woman who would cry everyday. The missionary could not gather why, they would not discuss it, but soon enough it was the womans time to give birth yet the village was not happy they were all sad and weeping which he thought to be very strange. They brought he to a tent where there was an area for her to sit carved out, but there was something strange also there was a deep hole near where she was giving birth, but the missionary didnt think much of it. The woman gave birth then the child was taken and droped into the hole and barried alive, the missionary was broken and distraut h was angry and confused how could such evil be allowed, how long had this gone on? The missionary never doubted God although he did get angry at him for a short time. The missionary prayed that God would help him to lead these people away from the witch doctor and his teachings. In time the missionary was able to learn the languege and deliver the words of the Bible and amazingly the entire village came to truest the LOrd as savior and they also drove the witch doctor away warning him never to return again, but this is not the point of the story read on please. Later that week a very very old woman came up to him crying and said where were you, where were you, so many dead babies so many could have been saved, she said if you would have come 15 years earlier this number would be alive if you would have come 10 yrs earlier this many would be alive if you would have come just 5 years earlier this many would have been saved. The missionary then began to weep and fell to his knees beging for her forgiveness and for God's. The woman looked confused as she did not understand since she did not believe it was the missionaries fault that he couldnt come, but the missionary loked at the old woman and said God placed it on my heart to come her 15 yrs ago to this day and I said no then 10yrs later then 5 yrs later each time he made an excuse why he couldnt go and each time more children died. The point is all of us can blame God for pain in the world but the fact of the matter is we are the reason for pain and we are also the reason nothing gets done to fix it.

Along with taht let me say this. God is capable of stopping evil but if he stopped all evil how would we ever learn to grow, we would never have the oppurtunity to put anyone elses needs above our own. I will admit there are alot of realy terrible things in this world but the questions isnt why doesnt God do anything the question is why dont we do anything.