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Semper wrote:

LiQuiD wrote:kit-fox i do believe you are wasting your time trying to prove any point to them. they will not listen to anything other than the bible.

I certainly hope not. Part of the founding morals of this section is to debate and discuss.

The bible has little place here, it is unfounded truth, ignorance at its height. The very thing is a massive contradiction, ask any great scientist or philosopher or intelligent person.

However, just because the bible is a pile of pigs wallop does not mean God does not exist...

(NOTE: I hope anyone knows, that if they take part in a official judged debate, the bible is not a valid source, unless you are debating something from it. IE Jesus performing miracles, fact of fiction? Metaphor? You would use the bible to list the so called miracles he performed...but you would not use the bible as a valid counter argument to evolution.)

Semper wrote:The bible has little place here, it is unfounded truth, ignorance at its height. The very thing is a massive contradiction, ask any great scientist or philosopher or intelligent person.

Thade wrote:Because I was one of the original posters in this thread I figured I had a semi-right to post an opinion concerning this...

Semper wrote:The bible has little place here, it is unfounded truth, ignorance at its height. The very thing is a massive contradiction, ask any great scientist or philosopher or intelligent person.

I believe that if you were to research the life of Wernher von Braun you be eating crow concerning those words.


argument ad absurdium:
Come on Semper...saying the Bible isn't a proper source is like saying words aren't a proper source as they are simply symbols of concepts.

TheWay wrote: love that you post a simple post and point out a logical falacy very nicely done.

TheWay wrote:@urogard
Thats classless and lacking in any support

urogard wrote:

TheWay wrote: love that you post a simple post and point out a logical falacy very nicely done.

And yet ...

TheWay wrote:@urogard
Thats classless and lacking in any support

and yet again the fanatics punch themselves

TheWay wrote:@fireball37

let me gte this straight you are insulting someone for trying to live their life based on morals wow m8 congrats good job on that (insert sarcasim)
I am disappointed

TheWay wrote:To answer some of your questions simper,

First, just because people claim to be Christian does not make them so, many claim to be aliens from other worlds and we lock them up and label them crazies which is what we should maybe do with false Christians (that was said sarcastically for those that want to burn me at the stake for being a Christian)

Are priest's not true christians? Are people who adopt abortian not christians? What does it take to make a christian?

There are Christians who abide by the principles of Christianity not because we must to be saved but because Ephesian 2:8-10 and the process of sanctification which makes us more like Christ. None of us are perfect m8 and honestly the society is so relativistic today that many people who go to church don’t know how to separate themselves from the beliefs of the world which condones the murder of innocent children and the destruction of the traditional family through the homosexual movement. I however am a Christian and although not perfect I try hard to live above reproach which is to say I live my life in such a way that I cannot be accused of wrong doing. You may say no way can live that way and you would be right in a way, anyone could accuse me but because I live in such a way it would be hard to prove and in the end the truth would be in my favor.

Like I said before, I did not say everyone. Just most. Though you live by the codes of the bible. My point is, if that code has been manipulated so much, corrupted, has so many logical flaws, how can you stand to live by it?

As of the issue of tolerance well I think you are mixing up tolerance with pluralism. I have tolerance which is to say I accept that other believe different then me and have the right to do, however I am not a pluralist which is to say I do not believe they and myself can both be right. There are those in liberal churches (which have always existed this is nothing new) who are pluralist and I am appalled by their behavior. When you talk about Christianity you must differentiate between the religion and the faith, which is to say that you recognize that the faith does not always get followed by each religious group.

Yet another diversity and addition to my point then. More conforming from the good faith. (Btw I point out here, this is an argument against religions who follow the bible, not just christianity and the catholics) Pluralist, tolerance... if you follow the faith, then you should think it wrong. You should be a pluralist in this instance. After all the basis of your religion says it is wrong. I mean...you want to live by this code, well live by it man, dont live by the aspects of it that are most convenient...and conforming.

I am sorry you are so angry with God and I don’t figure there is much I can say that will change your view other than to suggest that there is a reason why this is so important to you and if there were no God why would you care it would unimportant to even spend time thinking about it let alone arguing passionately on a forum about it. I propose that you and every other person on this forum knows that there is indeed a God a sovereign creator who made all of us and that you and many others are upset because you cannot comprehend this God and this world being coexistent. I must admit at times it is difficult for me also. I recall watching my cousin Lindsay die of a car accident in the hospital with her face mangled beyond recognition. I found a verse in Peter that said if I brought the elders and prayed over her she would be healed and I wanted so badly to believe that the verse was saying what I wanted it to say. I did believe as a matter a fact which made her dying an hour later so hard. I wept like I had never before. I cried out to God and I was angry, confused and hurt. My issue wasn’t God it was sin, I was angry at God because of death but God did not cause death he created us to live forever and said if you eat of this fruit you will surely die and we did spiritually and physically. My problem wasn’t God it was me, I had decided I knew what God was supposed to do and when he didn’t do what I thought he should I was angry. In the book of Daniel there is a story about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who were accused of not bowing to the god of Nebuchadnezzar, their penalty was to be thrown in a furnace and burned to death. They were brought before Nebuchadnezzar and given the chance to repent and worship his god but they refused and the King Nebuchadnezzar said to them who will save you from this furnace. Their response sums up faith, they said oh King our God is capable of saving us but even if he doesn’t we still would not bow to your idol. The point is their faith was not contingent on what God did but rather because God is God and he does not need to answer to his creation. In the end they walked through the fire and Nebuchadnezzar was amazed and praised the Lord God all throughout the kingdom.

WRONG! I am not angry at God, I do not outright say there is NO God, in fact like I said I encourage belief in God, I find the belief in the being more of a benefit averse to a fault. This is an example of the inability to differentiate between God and religion. My arguments are against the Bible and the religions that follow the bible and the presumptions they make about God. God itself, the being if it does exist (I am an agnostic) does not need religion. So please...do not muddle my words to make my intentions otherwise. I am sorry to hear about your relations, and I am touched by your story, sincerely, as I have said before I truly respect faith even though it may not be obvious. However, I do not respect religion. There are differences. I knew..this would happen..

How quaint. You back up your points with a story from the bible, the book in question, the very tome I have found so many problems with. You do God no justice by supporting it with these stories...

God is neither male nor female and the finite which we place on him is correctly labeled anthropomorphism, which is things like God holds us in his hand or God looks down on us with his eyes. He doesn’t have eyes or hands but in order for us to grasp some semblance of him we need these terms. He is a relational God so he seeks to have us understand parts of himself hence one of the reasons he came to earth as Jesus to live and to die for us.

No, you see... thats not an answer, that just an example of exactly what I said where one of the problems. Further more, you give me, yet another example of how things in the bible, a book written by man were metaphors to represent things....so either way..you've handed me every point so far...but let us continue.

Lol, We are not finite beings perhaps are bodies are but we have souls as well a view called dichotomy which explains we are made up of two parts a physical body and a soul. I think much of your conclusion would be cleared up if you asked questions rather then attacked thing you do not understand.

I understand a lot more than you realise. The idea of dualism is not a proven feat. However the finite attribute of our physical form is. All these actions by the lord would have been viewed and comprehended by our physical finite form. if the soul does exist and is infinite, it cannot exist in a finite form as you think of a soul, otherwise its finite and not infinite. If it is infinite then it cannot be comprehended by the finite form. We MAY have a soul, i do not deny this..but on this earth we cannot have such a thing, but thats more an idea rather than a point I am willing to push, as things start to get very messy there....but if you insist...

Hmm I think your issues with sin and free will would require a lot more time then I have but suffice to say you are enacting your free will now by questioning God and although God is forgiving which he is that’s why he sent his son to die for all men, you must believe and accept that gift to have that forgiveness. Imagine yourself in front of a judge and your verdict is laid down as death but someone steps forward and says I will die in his place so the judge says very well to you accept that this man will die in your place but you respond who will die in my place I don’t see anyone nor do I hear them. You can’t very well accept Jesus dying for your sins if you don’t acknowledge he even exists.

I am questioning God, because I have no proof of his existence. I have not been conditioned to believe or be witness to an event to push me to believe and give me the hope that a loved one or myself with not face oblivion and I am now presented with a opportunity to show my knowledge (enter very long explanation of cause and effect in a temporary basis yadda yadda..). Thats not free will. Your arguing with belief not empirical 'fact'. If you want to say to me, Jesus died on the cross to absolve us of our sins so we can all be forever forgiven, then I will also that God has spoken to me and told me that the bible is a pile of rubbish. You may not question my claim because of face value on the part of your argument, but prove me wrong. I believe God has said this to me. I believe god is instructing me to write all this because I am meant to show you the light, the truth path, that the man made religion, the corruption is not what Christ or god truly intended. The only difference between mine and yours (this is great this bit..) is you have more people behind yours, and someone wrote it down some 2000 years ago to a bunch of people who had little knowledge of the scientific world (and all the rest of it.) who still believed in eldrich creatures and mythical beings. Circumstances, cause and effect...thats all it is..

however, back on point. I must accept that gift, in order to attain that forgiveness. Fair enough, that is a good point to reply to my argument with. Still though does that mean the the rules put forward in the ten commandments before that are pointless, because if all we have to do is believe in Jesus and accept that, then we get forgiven anyway...well..why is murder bad again?

At the end of your rant I find it hard to believe you can feel so strongly about a subject you clearly know so little about. May I challenge you to find a Calvary Chapel Church and visit it and ask your questions to a pastor so he can tell you what we actually believe? If you need help finding the church let me know I will find one for you.

TheWay wrote:After seeing the last few posts it is clear that posting here is not for any gain and the insults have become beyond unaccpetable as I have now been accused of astrocities, which is absolutly unacceptable. I see no reason to subject myself to this any longer. I enjoy intelligent debate I do not however enjoy childish insults and comparing myself and my beliefs to atrocities.

@Semper, I appreciate you reading my post and answering it, Unforunatly evidence you require is not available teh only evidence seperate from scripture lies in philosophy which for the part you would argue isnt proof.

TheWay wrote:After seeing the last few posts it is clear that posting here is not for any gain and the insults have become beyond unaccpetable as I have now been accused of astrocities, which is absolutly unacceptable. I see no reason to subject myself to this any longer. I enjoy intelligent debate I do not however enjoy childish insults and comparing myself and my beliefs to atrocities.

@Semper, I appreciate you reading my post and answering it, Unforunatly evidence you require is not available teh only evidence seperate from scripture lies in philosophy which for the part you would argue isnt proof.