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Posted: **Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:29 pm**

Thriller wrote:OH you left me out semper...

lol... I may as well go and talk logic with a four year old...

Posted: **Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:08 pm**

That sounded like an insult o_O

Posted: **Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:14 pm**

fireball37 wrote:Nemesis, if you are right about god then it means we're all as good as dead. According to you, you have all the answers, and you have a perfect moral guide, congratulations Nemesis, you're the pinnacle of human evolution, how does that feel? I'm betting it doesn't feel like anything, you would have us lobotomize ourselves into blind faith when, ultimately the end result is... nothing.

Humans have a tendency to die, so yes you could say we are all as good as dead. I never said I have all the answers, there is only one who does. I don't believe Evolution is real, so I'll just ignore that part. I can tell you its feels great to be a Christian. If God were a physical being who walked this Earth performing amazing feats today no one could deny he was God. Take that away and your left with faith. That is allowing more freedom for anyone to believe what they want to believe. You can deny the existence of God but that is your choice.

fireball37 wrote:The bible doesn't give you any great insights, it doesn't answer the questions which really matter, and as a moral guide it's ambiguous to say the least. And in the world you want to make, where reason is effectively dead, those ambiguities would tear us apart, and at that point I'll bet you the last ten thousand years of staggering human development will be undone overnight, and we can't start again. So Nemesis, I hope you're really sure about that book of yours...

I dispute your claims that the Bible does not offer great insights, it has been enough to sustain the Religion for thousands of years. It answers a lot, but not everything, and in the time of its writing had no reason too. I am sure about the validity of the Bible, that's me and if you or anyone doesn't want to believe it that's your choice.

Posted: **Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:25 pm**

TheWay wrote:@n3M351s

You hang in their m8 the more you suffer the more you are like Christ take the shots as a badge of honor

Thanks for the encouraging words!

Been missing you in this debate TheWay. Nice post :-)

Excellent post if I do say so myself.
[spoiler]

TheWay wrote:To answer some of your questions simper,

First, just because people claim to be Christian does not make them so, many claim to be aliens from other worlds and we lock them up and label them crazies which is what we should maybe do with false Christians (that was said sarcastically for those that want to burn me at the stake for being a Christian)

There are Christians who abide by the principles of Christianity not because we must to be saved but because Ephesian 2:8-10 and the process of sanctification which makes us more like Christ. None of us are perfect m8 and honestly the society is so relativistic today that many people who go to church don’t know how to separate themselves from the beliefs of the world which condones the murder of innocent children and the destruction of the traditional family through the homosexual movement. I however am a Christian and although not perfect I try hard to live above reproach which is to say I live my life in such a way that I cannot be accused of wrong doing. You may say no way can live that way and you would be right in a way, anyone could accuse me but because I live in such a way it would be hard to prove and in the end the truth would be in my favor.

As of the issue of tolerance well I think you are mixing up tolerance with pluralism. I have tolerance which is to say I accept that other believe different then me and have the right to do, however I am not a pluralist which is to say I do not believe they and myself can both be right. There are those in liberal churches (which have always existed this is nothing new) who are pluralist and I am appalled by their behavior. When you talk about Christianity you must differentiate between the religion and the faith, which is to say that you recognize that the faith does not always get followed by each religious group.

I am sorry you are so angry with God and I don’t figure there is much I can say that will change your view other than to suggest that there is a reason why this is so important to you and if there were no God why would you care it would unimportant to even spend time thinking about it let alone arguing passionately on a forum about it. I propose that you and every other person on this forum knows that there is indeed a God a sovereign creator who made all of us and that you and many others are upset because you cannot comprehend this God and this world being coexistent. I must admit at times it is difficult for me also. I recall watching my cousin Lindsay die of a car accident in the hospital with her face mangled beyond recognition. I found a verse in Peter that said if I brought the elders and prayed over her she would be healed and I wanted so badly to believe that the verse was saying what I wanted it to say. I did believe as a matter a fact which made her dying an hour later so hard. I wept like I had never before. I cried out to God and I was angry, confused and hurt. My issue wasn’t God it was sin, I was angry at God because of death but God did not cause death he created us to live forever and said if you eat of this fruit you will surely die and we did spiritually and physically. My problem wasn’t God it was me, I had decided I knew what God was supposed to do and when he didn’t do what I thought he should I was angry. In the book of Daniel there is a story about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who were accused of not bowing to the god of Nebuchadnezzar, their penalty was to be thrown in a furnace and burned to death. They were brought before Nebuchadnezzar and given the chance to repent and worship his god but they refused and the King Nebuchadnezzar said to them who will save you from this furnace. Their response sums up faith, they said oh King our God is capable of saving us but even if he doesn’t we still would not bow to your idol. The point is their faith was not contingent on what God did but rather because God is God and he does not need to answer to his creation. In the end they walked through the fire and Nebuchadnezzar was amazed and praised the Lord God all throughout the kingdom.

God is neither male nor female and the finite which we place on him is correctly labeled anthropomorphism, which is things like God holds us in his hand or God looks down on us with his eyes. He doesn’t have eyes or hands but in order for us to grasp some semblance of him we need these terms. He is a relational God so he seeks to have us understand parts of himself hence one of the reasons he came to earth as Jesus to live and to die for us.

Lol, We are not finite beings perhaps are bodies are but we have souls as well a view called dichotomy which explains we are made up of two parts a physical body and a soul. I think much of your conclusion would be cleared up if you asked questions rather then attacked thing you do not understand.

Hmm I think your issues with sin and free will would require a lot more time then I have but suffice to say you are enacting your free will now by questioning God and although God is forgiving which he is that’s why he sent his son to die for all men, you must believe and accept that gift to have that forgiveness. Imagine yourself in front of a judge and your verdict is laid down as death but someone steps forward and says I will die in his place so the judge says very well to you accept that this man will die in your place but you respond who will die in my place I don’t see anyone nor do I hear them. You can’t very well accept Jesus dying for your sins if you don’t acknowledge he even exists.

At the end of your rant I find it hard to believe you can feel so strongly about a subject you clearly know so little about. May I challenge you to find a Calvary Chapel Church and visit it and ask your questions to a pastor so he can tell you what we actually believe? If you need help finding the church let me know I will find one for you.

[/spoiler]

Posted: **Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:42 pm**

Colton wrote:That sounded like an insult o_O

prove it... :-D

After all..thats the sort of thing we do in here....or at least we discuss doing so..

Posted: **Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:44 pm**

Colton wrote:That sounded like an insult o_O

Semper being hypocritical..... :shock:

lol

Posted: **Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:09 pm**

Thriller wrote:
Colton wrote:That sounded like an insult o_O

Semper being hypocritical.....
lol

lol...never..

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:17 am**

ok, So i was reading, well more like just skimming here and there of y'all had said, and its all very good arguments and all, but i was all bout the western religions, what bout eh eastern religions?
Like Buddhism, as a fellow Buddhist, think that it is not a religion, but a way of life. Although there is a sect, that worships the Buddha as a "God", the main sect of Buddhism is in fact more of a way of life.

Among the methods various schools of Buddhism apply towards this goal are: ethical conduct and altruistic behavior, devotional practices, ceremonies and the invocation of Bodhisatvas that help them achieve Nirvana, renunciation of worldly matters, meditation, physical exercises akin to Hatha yoga, study, and the cultivation of wisdom.

Those and the fact that, when you go to a Buddhist temple you do worship, but pray to your ancestors, for good fortune, health, etc, and that they have a good afterlife. If you are Buddhist, you can still practice other religions, but, if you're a Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, you may not practice other religions, for it is frowned upon by your religion, and your "God' (whoever that my be). That is all that i have to say for now, i would really like it if someone could challenge these facts, and my point of view. Thank you.

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:43 am**

Buddhism is one of the most respected religions (or ways of life :wink:

) i believe.

would anyone here say that an encyclopaedia is a true and accurate book?

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:59 am**

LiQuiD wrote:would anyone here say that an encyclopaedia is a true and accurate book?

It would depend on which encyclopaedia you were to use. There are some that have excellent research for their articles and then others who simply paid the cheapest hack to wipe the behind with paper and call it a proper article on whatever. So a proper encyclopaedia (such as the Britanica) would pass muster for most articles but in-depth research into the writer would be highly recommended. The writer of the article is usually either listed as the by-line for the article or within the index.

@Semper: Perhaps a more narrowly defined subject for discussion would be in order as the current state of the posts are divergent from the original post. So there could be people being mislead as to the nature of this thread. Perhaps this one could be considered done? and new ones targeting the various points brought up could be created. I.e. reviving the Bible topic, more participation within the Evo vs. ID topic. In any case I suppose my real question is what is actually being debated within this thread?

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:57 am**

@LiQuiD: Yes, Buddhism is very well respected, were ever you go, its very peacfull too, no warts have been fought over them, or with in them.

@Thade: True, there are soem that are accurate, and those that are not. Like wikipedia, that can be edited by anyone, so its not always true. I would go for Google, MSN searches, or hardfacts in the Ol' Book of knowlage, that is being phased out by the internet...lol

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:20 am**

@Thade. Well the original idea of the topic was for one to defend the western religions and everyone else try and justify the rights of the others. We have, long since moved from that directly. However, i suppose the destruction of the western system (following the bible for instance) is on that path, at least it would be in my mind if I were tackling this topic seriously.

However I will be locking this one soon...but not quite yet. :-)

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:29 am**

personally i think allowing a topic to wander can be a good thing sometimes.

Thade wrote:So a proper encyclopaedia (such as the Britanica) would pass muster for most articles

yeh that would be one of the better encyclopaedias. but every article and piece of information within its pages wouldnt be correct though. there would be some errors, either through insufficient research (unlikely), or because what people think they know to be true is not correct.

my point is that a well respected source of information such as the britannica encyclopaedia will still be wrong on some things, no matter how accurate it tries to be. it is written by man, therefore it is subject to human error and ignorance.

every book that is a collection of information will contain false knowledge even if this is unintentional. there is only one book created by humanity which is claimed to be perfect. why this is so, i do not know.

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:53 am**

White Dragon Emperor wrote:ok, So i was reading, well more like just skimming here and there of y'all had said, and its all very good arguments and all, but i was all bout the western religions, what bout eh eastern religions?
Like Buddhism, as a fellow Buddhist, think that it is not a religion, but a way of life. Although there is a God seeing our inability to be perfect sent the one person that could notsect, that worships the Buddha as a "God", the main sect of Buddhism is in fact more of a way of life.

Among the methods various schools of Buddhism apply towards this goal are: ethical conduct and altruistic behavior, devotional practices, ceremonies and the invocation of Bodhisatvas that help them achieve Nirvana, renunciation of worldly matters, meditation, physical exercises akin to Hatha yoga, study, and the cultivation of wisdom.

Those and the fact that, when you go to a Buddhist temple you do worship, but pray to your ancestors, for good fortune, health, etc, and that they have a good afterlife. If you are Buddhist, you can still practice other religions, but, if you're a Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, you may not practice other religions, for it is frowned upon by your religion, and your "God' (whoever that my be). That is all that i have to say for now, i would really like it if someone could challenge these facts, and my point of view. Thank you.

I read the original topic question which seems to allow well for this discussion.
You have asked that someone challenge your fact or your thoughts and I am not sure I will directly do so but I will at least address my view on Buddhism which is bound to be counter to yours. I have a great deal of experience in this area because I was the English/Youth Pastor for a Vietnamese Church for about 3 years and so I obviously ran into Buddhism a great deal both in the church itself and outside the church when speaking to the youth kids friends or when having outreach events.
My understanding of Buddhism is that it was a religion designed in response to the brokenness of man that Buddha saw around him when he finally ventured from the confines of his sheltered palace. The system was designed around principles ie.

The Four Noble Truths
1. Life leads to suffering.
2. Suffering comes from our attachment to worldly things.
3. By escaping all desires you will reach enlightenment.
4. To reach true freedom you must follow the path (see below)

&

The Eight Fold Path
1. Right view
2. Right intention
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration

Now I must admit this system is infinitely better than the one it replaced in that it focuses on being a moral person, however it is ultimately incapable of philosophically reaching any of its goals by the means it sets forth since in my opinion the eightfold path and the four truths are not attainable by fallen man. I completely recognize my view is based off my a priori understanding of fallen man and that where you to approach this with a different presupposition you may not be brought to the same conclusion. I however believe (not faith but rather knowledge gained) that man is not capable of escaping desires or releasing themselves from worldly things at least not entirely, this would require someone better than man a perfect man. Beyond the four truths you run into the same problems with the principles in the eight fold path. There is no man capable of living without telling a lie nor are we capable of any of these principles in an absolute sense. I would also disagree strongly with most interpretations on the value of right living as understood by most Buddhist, in that I think the views are utopian at best and worst have possibly lead to the situation in Thailand.

All the things which this system endeavors to accomplish are accomplished through Christianity through the process of imputed righteousness. If you take the presupposition that God is perfect which if he is God he must be then you inevitably must be perfect to be in his presence for what relationship can light have with darkness but to keep each other at bay. Then it stands to reason that we must attain perfection as in the system of Buddha we must become more then we are. The problem is we are all born fallen and with a sin nature which I dare say no one could honestly disagree with when looking around themselves; they will see we are truly depraved as a species. This then is a problem that must be resolved if one is to have a relationship with its creator or ultimately escape this world of suffering and be in union with God. This problem although not answered in Buddhism is answered in Christianity, in that only be perfect but was also capable of dying in our place to pay for our sins. In sending Christ to live, die and rise again he answered all of the problems we face.

1. The penalty for our sins must be paid because ultimately God is just. So Christ Died, taking on all our sins past present and future.

2. We are not perfect and incapable of being so. Christ lived the perfect life which was imputed to us when he died so that when God looks down on us he sees Christ imputed righteousness rather than our fallen nature.

3. He rose from the dead showing us he is God and that he has power over death. Where O death is your sting.

In all Buddhism is a religion and a noble one for sure but ultimately it seeks what it will not find and at the end of the day in my opinion you have a lot of people struggling to reach a goal which is unattainable. They may find value in the struggle and that is noble but I hardly think it is enough, if the wish to reach enlightenment there is a path and his name is Jesus. Jesus is the way the truth and the life no one comes to father except through the son.

Please take no offense to this as these are my oppinions and you are free to hold opposing ones though I do belive I am correct and in turn those oopposing are wrong. Not pluralism but tolerance

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:04 am**

TheWay wrote:In all Buddhism is a religion and a noble one for sure but ultimately it seeks what it will not find and at the end of the day in my opinion you have a lot of people struggling to reach a goal which is unattainable.

I think Buddha himself would disagree...

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