StarGateWars Forums

blahh wrote:@forum
The way i see it, the non (ex) COP ppl are mainly complaining about 2 things in this update.

1. descension is alot easier due to raising the max life force and so destroyn the only posible defence against descension made by most "little" ppl - having a nice chunk of life force while keeping max life force lvl as low as posible.

Here you basicly destroyed the tactic on wich most of the server was betting for keeping them alive. Betting and loosing as it seems now.

I have a solution to this problem

Basically the concern about Descension with this update is that some people are concerned DD/Omega (and other Strong Ascended) accounts will have free reign on descending people once the update is in place.

So forum my suggestion is this while you are removing the rank modifiers for attacking etc so its possible for big players to fight little guys.

Why dont you keep the rank modifier on for Descension (based on life force maximum).

Say Sinister went to descend me and say he is rank 1 or whatever

I'm ranked about 500-600. He will have a large ascended life force pool and do lots of ascended damage (obviously capped at half)

But when he attacks it takes his ascended attack and lowers it with a rank modifier. this gives me more of a chance to stop more of his attack getting through.



Some of the big players may not agree with whats coming next -


When I go to attack Sinister back I dont get the rank modifier applied to me as I'm attacking someone stronger (again comparing his life force max and mine)


So it will go like this
(the numbers are made up and probably totally inaccurate)
Sinisters LF Max = 15,000,000
My LF Max = 2,000,000

The Rank modifier works on LF Max so when Sinister attacks me he gets a modifier of X amount

X= 65%(maximum) reduction - the 65% should be when the have over 5x's your LF Max and the number gets smaller the closer the LF's are - when there LF Max is only DOUBLE (x2) your LF Max no rank modifier applies as its a close fight - BAsically the ascended people that currently watch the fight saying your too powerful it will be frowned upon. Do the same when trying to descend someone trying to even up the ascended plane


So his LF Max is now reduced by 65% to 5,250,000 giving me a better chance of reducing the damage he can do further. (and not being descended as easily)


Now if I were to attack him
the two LF Max rank modifiers get compared I come off much lower than him so the modifier doesnt reduce my LF Max "damage"

This will make it a fairer fight.

Obviously I will still have to hit him more times to descend him and he wont need as much to descend me but it will be a bit fairer when stopping bigger people descending smaller people more easily.

Obviously the % rank modifiers will have to be worked out so they dont drop below your LF Max (Making it unfair)

possible figures are

The Stronger person takes the reduction (based on a weaker player of 2mill LF Max obviously if the "weaker player" has a higher LF the multiplier/Rank Modifier is still the same)
>5x more LF Max = 65% (Reduction) (15mill drops to 5,250,00)
>4x <5x more LF Max = 45% (Reduction) (9 mill drops to 4,050,000)
>3x <4x more LF Max = 35% (Reduction) (6 mill drops to 3,900,000)
>2x <3x more LF Max = 25% (Reduction) (5 mill drops to 3,750,000)
=<2x more LF Max = 0% (Reduction) (4 mill and less doesnt get reduced)


I hope that solution/suggestion is clear(ish)

Let me know what you all think
trying to think of a fair balanced solution for both those larger players and those smaller players with regards to how descension will work... so its possible to solve peoples concerns about big guys being able to descend them


TheRook

additionally I think the number of planets "untrained" in the revolt should be about 4-5k per 15 AT if they have 1 million Income planets trained this will mean if you have 2k AT and use half of them to untrain there income planets (66 x 15AT) will get you 330,000 planets untrained out of 1 million Income planets you can use the rest of your AT to raid them

OR

if its a fixed 1-2% get untrained each 15AT hit them means makes it more difficult to strip someone down entirely

The current problem is its very easy to initiate revolution with little to no losses on the attacker and the person being attacked loses a lot more.

Lord_Zeus wrote:With the situation of income planets etc... I do think they need to be killable, otherwise it creates the situation where the little guy simply can't catch up, however perhaps limiting it to 5-10% a day would work. (Any smaller and a players growth just outstrips what they will lose)

I'm not sure I follow your logic on this point. Little players aren't out killing big players income planets. Therefore, we don't currently have a situation where big players are ever losing income planets anyway. However, we DO currently have a situation where big players can relatively easily untrain a smaller players income planets.

As it stands, smaller players can't catch up because they can be raided back to 0 as soon as they get anywhere close to a big player yet they have almost no chance of being able to do the same in reverse.

RobinInDaHood wrote:

Lord_Zeus wrote:With the situation of income planets etc... I do think they need to be killable, otherwise it creates the situation where the little guy simply can't catch up, however perhaps limiting it to 5-10% a day would work. (Any smaller and a players growth just outstrips what they will lose)

I'm not sure I follow your logic on this point. Little players aren't out killing big players income planets. Therefore, we don't currently have a situation where big players are ever losing income planets anyway. However, we DO currently have a situation where big players can relatively easily untrain a smaller players income planets.

As it stands, smaller players can't catch up because they can be raided back to 0 as soon as they get anywhere close to a big player yet they have almost no chance of being able to do the same in reverse.

Ahh yeah thats a point as well, I'm just thinking along the lines that you can't catch up to someone if you can't destroy them at all (Income planets at least). Aka someone starts with 50 mil another with 25, if its even exponential growth it should be 100 to 50 etc, by introducing some way to slowly take down a persons account it would make it possible, but as it stands you are probably right, the larger players are not going to get hurt by the smaller. And yeah, the larger players find it very easy to take down smaller ones.

As long as your able to destroy/raid income planets then its not a difference if you play or not .......if you got 50mill planets or 1k it doesnt matter ........ Income planets should be safe so the people THAT play will actually have a chance at defending against descension.....

RobinInDaHood has eloquently and succinctly articulated what the majority of players are concerned about.

Unstoppable growth and unlimited power will ruin the game.
There is no point playing ascended if everything you build over a long period of time can be easily destroyed - Resource planets must be safe.

Also, PSICOLIX and RobinInDaHood have astutely recognised that without capped levels at the very top of the Food Chain, no one else can evolve.

@rook, your solution is nice but it has a problem within, it could be used to snipe at top accounts.
With this i m refering to some1 sending tons of dmu to a low ranked player him converting it to LF, powering up attack atributes, using that nice chunk of lf on a big player having the uper hand in combat due to its rank.
True that they can probably handle ppl hitting them, but it would be enabling faul play.

As much as i dont like the curent situation in the game (10-20 ppl holding more than 50% of power of the server) i still dont think punishing those who played well is a good concept.

I've said it before, but i'm so nice i'll say it again. if u want details or reasons why, see my post i made earlier

1. The super weapon, was one of the best things for repairing the activity to ascension and helps spread the wealth. Without it the server will become far less active again and there is no chance of slowing the top players.

2. There needs to be weak moving caps, or very strong caps that don't move (which wouldn't be fun because u'd eventually get to a point where u can't really grow). Otherwise people will never be comparable, it doesn't make players overtake, it makes them more comparable to the top guys which is all you need to make the game more interesting.

3. There needs to be a good APP>Life force rate, and it needs to be automatic, and no 330:1 still doesn't cut it. Otherwise people will sell DMU to convert to LF for cheaper than you can send it up yourself which is very disheartening if you are foolish enough to calculate how much money they can make from selling to people who have no choice but to give them money in main if you want to play ascended without wasting more main resources then you have to. For big players that say "rapid ascensions are what ruined ascension" then don't say the APP>Life force ratio should be low because it's making the only sensible option rapid ascensions.

About the SW, i still think thats BAD, but i have to adimit the Auction Realy help the game, see peaple waiting that get sold to mass farm was kind beuty in terms of activity.

So how about action 25% Main extra bonus for 48 Hours? shoude be like this, Action for 48 Hours, than the ones that wins get the bonus, and imediataly the BID restart. that woude split st least 2 Trill Naq every 2 days amount the active acounts (since all Naq will be going to be splited).

blahh wrote:@rook, your solution is nice but it has a problem within, it could be used to snipe at top accounts.
With this i m refering to some1 sending tons of dmu to a low ranked player him converting it to LF, powering up attack atributes, using that nice chunk of lf on a big player having the uper hand in combat due to its rank.
True that they can probably handle ppl hitting them, but it would be enabling faul play.

As much as i dont like the curent situation in the game (10-20 ppl holding more than 50% of power of the server) i still dont think punishing those who played well is a good concept.

If there LF Maximum is the same or x2 difference there is now reduction this is just for smaller people taking hits from the big guys as they will have huge LF Max that will still need to be eaten into so even if they had a powered up ascended attack and a large life force max they would only be as strong as the account to defend... after all if some little guy with those stats based on descension could match Sinister I'm sure Sinister would be able to give just as well to this little guy and would be a good fight for him.

There is no reason why people cant do this now... but once the Life Force Cache is in place people wont be able to have lots of DMU converted to Life Force and use that to descend people.

This would be based on using the Life Force Maximum (Reserves) as a damage modifier so its fairer to people who dont have much in the way of life force reserves while those big guys with lots of reserves will have a good fight on there hands either way.

do putting lots of DMU into life force wont effect it!

TheRook

uhm, I've read the whole thread but I can't remember if this has been brought up or not.
1. I know this has been brought up, but Forum never answered the question, is there going to be a compensation of sorts for everyone who ascends before this update goes live. Due to the vast increase to the LF:APP ratio, it seems only fair.
2. This is my original point. Turn:DMU should be way higher than 100k:1. 1mil:1 at the very least, seeing as with little effort you can find 100+mil in open with no defense.

_of War wrote:1. I know this has been brought up, but Forum never answered the question, is there going to be a compensation of sorts for everyone who ascends before this update goes live. Due to the vast increase to the LF:APP ratio, it seems only fair.

actually i believe giving everyone the same bonus APP would be a good step towards levelling the server.
If everyone recieves an equal amount of APP the big guys are not punished for the work they have done, their heavy early ascention, time spend etc, they will get a reward that they can invest into their account, it will not be that much as their own standard resources are huge.
For the smaller accounts every APP boost is an extra growth bonus, they will be able to do more upgrades then the big guys and so they will do a step forward towards levelling the server. Offcourse they will need to keep the effort going or every investment will be a waste. That way the difference gets smaller again between the big and small accounts, so the game gets more attractive again for the big guns.
I know it is not completely fair towards the big guys that their time and efforts spend are for a piece wasted by this, but maybe it will bring more fun again into the server for them.

I have a quick question:

When will this be put on the live server, so I know when I should ascend

Lord_Zeus wrote:Regardless of how planets are changed however... the main problem with this update is how darned easy it is to descend someone, there is No defence you have against them at all, if this is implemented your taking away the last legitimate strategy to prevent descention... (Which is simply piling up loads of life force) I can't see why the damage that is able to be done needs to be changed. If it is changed it should be implemented on an Optional basis IE, you can times your life force by 3 If you wish... not forced. (This is talking about the damage done to someone when they are personally attacked ie the previous max was 5x lf with 3x the life force it would be 15x)

I don't have a problem with someone being able to defend themselves from descension. If you're going to actively and deliberately attempt to stop from being descended, then let's play. The problem is, you can stack up LF to the point it's no longer possible to descend them. The possibility must still exist. It's much like massing someone in main. You have the ability to defend yourself, but it takes effort and skill. Saving up DMU to the **Filtered** isn't skill.

RobinInDaHood wrote:

Hensenshi wrote:

RobinInDaHood wrote:Income planets should always be untouchable, either from raiding or revolution.

Income planets being destroyable is what makes the game so different. Everything is destroyable. Nothing is safe. I wouldn't have a problem if revolution was changed to destroy income planets, but income planets need to be destroyable in some way shape or fashion.

I mentioned stat caps in another post earlier and compared it to other huge, successful RPGs like WoW, Guild Wars, and others.

The same logic applies here. When you go out on an RPG quest or mission with other players and get killed, they can't raid your corpse and take all your amour, weapons, gold, etc. and essentially strip all the work you've done back to 0.

Games that have *tried* that in the past (only 1 or 2 come to mind) and allowed you to completely devastate another player aren't around anymore. Having such a capability in the game destroys players will to play if they know at any time they could lose everything they have worked for, sometimes over months or years.

In WoW you can armor camp someone and damage their armor to the point it's impossibly expensive to repair. In almost all games that have a PvP element, you can hurt the other player somehow. The concept of everything is destroyable is what makes ascension risky. You never lose your charisma, or your production or fleets. You never lose those, but you can lose anything physical. You keep your levels, and loose your "armor". I think it's fair.

Hensenshi wrote:

Lord_Zeus wrote:Regardless of how planets are changed however... the main problem with this update is how darned easy it is to descend someone, there is No defence you have against them at all, if this is implemented your taking away the last legitimate strategy to prevent descention... (Which is simply piling up loads of life force) I can't see why the damage that is able to be done needs to be changed. If it is changed it should be implemented on an Optional basis IE, you can times your life force by 3 If you wish... not forced. (This is talking about the damage done to someone when they are personally attacked ie the previous max was 5x lf with 3x the life force it would be 15x)

I don't have a problem with someone being able to defend themselves from descension. If you're going to actively and deliberately attempt to stop from being descended, then let's play. The problem is, you can stack up LF to the point it's no longer possible to descend them. The possibility must still exist. It's much like massing someone in main. You have the ability to defend yourself, but it takes effort and skill. Saving up DMU to the **Filtered** isn't skill.

But if the system remains how it is according to this update there will not be any 'playing' involved when it is between a big and small guy. I didn't do massive ascensions, I admit to that. Hell, I didn't even do medium ascensions because of the advice others gave me. Whatever, I was a noob. But at the same time I have played the server since I ascended my first time, logging on every day(except during the CIA war when I jumped to vacation), 95% of the time 3+ times per day, and guess what, I still couldn't 'play' against you. It doesn't mean I am not active though. When descension came out I was told that so long as you were active it would be nearly impossible to descend you, no matter how crappy your account was. That didn't turn out to be the case exactly The only way to make that true was by stockpiling lifeforce. Not exactly great, but not much else to do. Alright, but the problem with that is that people then simply never log on. I agree, that is a problem. That is why I suggested what I did earlier about making it possible to transfer lifeforce from your cache to your reserve. It would force you to be active, and would allow the descension of others who simply never logged on.

The concept of stockpiling lifeforce was already made more difficult by the large increase in max lifeforce, but people should atleast have a chance. Without such a thing being implemented a small guy litterely has no other choice but to jump to vacation, which is yet another thing that you guys want to remove.

Munchy wrote:

Hensenshi wrote:

Lord_Zeus wrote:Regardless of how planets are changed however... the main problem with this update is how darned easy it is to descend someone, there is No defence you have against them at all, if this is implemented your taking away the last legitimate strategy to prevent descention... (Which is simply piling up loads of life force) I can't see why the damage that is able to be done needs to be changed. If it is changed it should be implemented on an Optional basis IE, you can times your life force by 3 If you wish... not forced. (This is talking about the damage done to someone when they are personally attacked ie the previous max was 5x lf with 3x the life force it would be 15x)

I don't have a problem with someone being able to defend themselves from descension. If you're going to actively and deliberately attempt to stop from being descended, then let's play. The problem is, you can stack up LF to the point it's no longer possible to descend them. The possibility must still exist. It's much like massing someone in main. You have the ability to defend yourself, but it takes effort and skill. Saving up DMU to the **Filtered** isn't skill.

But if the system remains how it is according to this update there will not be any 'playing' involved when it is between a big and small guy. I didn't do massive ascensions, I admit to that. Hell, I didn't even do medium ascensions because of the advice others gave me. Whatever, I was a noob. But at the same time I have played the server since I ascended my first time, logging on every day(except during the CIA war when I jumped to vacation), 95% of the time 3+ times per day, and guess what, I still couldn't 'play' against you. It doesn't mean I am not active though. When descension came out I was told that so long as you were active it would be nearly impossible to descend you, no matter how crappy your account was. That didn't turn out to be the case exactly The only way to make that true was by stockpiling lifeforce. Not exactly great, but not much else to do. Alright, but the problem with that is that people then simply never log on. I agree, that is a problem. That is why I suggested what I did earlier about making it possible to transfer lifeforce from your cache to your reserve. It would force you to be active, and would allow the descension of others who simply never logged on.

The concept of stockpiling lifeforce was already made more difficult by the large increase in max lifeforce, but people should atleast have a chance. Without such a thing being implemented a small guy litterely has no other choice but to jump to vacation, which is yet another thing that you guys want to remove.

I never said I agreed with the new system or the current system. I also don't agree with yours. Yours gives too much to the defender. The current gives too much to the defender, but the new one gives too much to the attacker. In general, I think it's a rather careful balance, but I can accept the new one because it'll give some weight to the attacker which hasn't existed in a long time.