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2 days ago we had 4 inches of rain in 1 night, wich is the 2nd most ever in a single 24 hour period

simply the weathers changing, but since its gunna take about 30 years for the effects were causing now to occure were a it late now, so well just have to see what happens

btw, little thing some people i know notices was that on the CO2 and temp graphs the co2 went up after the temp did.

simply, i dont know whats going on with the weather, theres just too many factors, but even if we are not the cause we should do somthing about it, a messed up economy is better than a messed up economy and a messed up environment

Simply to say, the effects will not be immediate. It's true, we are late. But we can slow it down and limit the effects right now. Starting with small steps. Like installing a solar panel, whcih will pay for itself in 5-10 years, give you a tax rebate, and make your property worth more? Or by installing double plane windows that cut out outside noises which can be disturbing to the nerves, but also insulates your home, to make it cooler in the summer and warmer in winter so you can save on heating and A/C.

There are so much we can do right now. Even if you don't believe in global warming. Just look at the benefits you can receiving!

Furthermore, the economy is already messed up. We are cosuming resources at an alarming rate. We need to have cheap alternative energy by the time we run out. Sooner or later, we will develope alt. energy, whether we want to or not. Because when the costs of alt. energy become less than what we pay for oil etc, we will start investing. But by then, there will be a lot of side effects in place. Also it'll also cause a huge depression in the economy, due to higher prices during the transition period.

This can be avoided by investing a little right now. Economically, investing now will have lower costs and greater returns in the future. As individuals and as a community, you can save costs on everyday stuff, and spend more on other things, so that you can stimulate the economy that way.

By choosing alternatives, you can save the eonomy, yourself, and maybe if you care, the world.


starry~*

starry~* wrote:Simply to say, the effects will not be immediate. It's true, we are late. But we can slow it down and limit the effects right now. Starting with small steps. Like installing a solar panel, whcih will pay for itself in 5-10 years, give you a tax rebate, and make your property worth more? Or by installing double plane windows that cut out outside noises which can be disturbing to the nerves, but also insulates your home, to make it cooler in the summer and warmer in winter so you can save on heating and A/C.

There are so much we can do right now. Even if you don't believe in global warming. Just look at the benefits you can receiving!

Furthermore, the economy is already messed up. We are cosuming resources at an alarming rate. We need to have cheap alternative energy by the time we run out. Sooner or later, we will develope alt. energy, whether we want to or not. Because when the costs of alt. energy become less than what we pay for oil etc, we will start investing. But by then, there will be a lot of side effects in place. Also it'll also cause a huge depression in the economy, due to higher prices during the transition period.

This can be avoided by investing a little right now. Economically, investing now will have lower costs and greater returns in the future. As individuals and as a community, you can save costs on everyday stuff, and spend more on other things, so that you can stimulate the economy that way.

By choosing alternatives, you can save the eonomy, yourself, and maybe if you care, the world.


starry~*

Yep a good start is to disconnect the pipes under your property treating grey water and feed it into a hose if you live in dry areas this hose can travel the length of your yard and green up the green shrubbery which will theoretically be less inclined to dump crap on your house.
Well said Starry~

@ da starry:

da starry wrote:In my opinion, the chart should look something like:

False w/ Action: Economic - YAY! Environ- YAY!
True w/ Action: Economic - YAY! Enviorn - Not as bad as could be.
False w/o Action: Economic- Disaster Eviron- No change.
True w/o action: Economic - BAD! Environ- Devastating

False w/o Action: Economic- Disaster Eviron- No change.
how did you get this?

False w/ Action: Economic - YAY! Environ- YAY!
how did you get this? the thing is whether we are able to affect the global climate or not. false - we aren't, true - we are. so if it's false means whatever we do makes no difference whatsoever.


well.. there was one hidden assumption there: the action is goverment inspired, means some kinda huge goverment intervention, which almost by definition (if not definition then by systems theory) leads to disaster, waste of resources (in our "standard" economy for every $1 effectively spent at least $2 are wasted) and almost never works as planned.
this is what i consider an "action". investing in "greener" stuff because its better is just the normal way of things.


and yes...

i wrote:5. the fuel economy thingy.
everyone knows that the more advanced a civilization is (we're not much advanced yet. just barely managed to master nuclear energy) the more energy it needs. so more energy-efficient stuff is always good and needed.

money invested in more energy-efficient stuff and cheaper energy sources pays back well. and the energy companies know this and they don't need environmentalists telling them what to do. just let them do their job, they'll come up with something in due time.

btw: XIX century french "environmentalists" had a theory that by the end of XX cent paris would be covered by horse manure layer 3 feet thick.

btw": a cfl bulb makes sense only when it's on for longer than 0.5 hour. that's why i have incandescent ones in bathroom and hallway.

btw'":

da starry wrote:Or by installing double plane windows that cut out outside noises which can be disturbing to the nerves, but also insulates your home, to make it cooler in the summer and warmer in winter so you can save on heating and A/C.

could ya explain this to my landlord?

how did you get this? the thing is whether we are able to affect the global climate or not. false - we aren't, true - we are. so if it's false means whatever we do makes no difference whatsoever.

No even if GLOBAL WARMING is false, the fact that there is limited resources still will bring economic ruin in the future.

well.. there was one hidden assumption there: the action is goverment inspired, means some kinda huge goverment intervention, which almost by definition (if not definition then by systems theory) leads to disaster, waste of resources (in our "standard" economy for every $1 effectively spent at least $2 are wasted) and almost never works as planned.
this is what i consider an "action". investing in "greener" stuff because its better is just the normal way of things.

I didn't really get that.
But from what I can infer... I blieve that the solution doesn't start with government. It starts with the people. Ecologically friendly buildings etc are becoming more prevalent because people have become more aware,and the people are the voters. For instance, my school is installing solar panels now etc

money invested in more energy-efficient stuff and cheaper energy sources pays back well. and the energy companies know this and they don't need environmentalists telling them what to do. just let them do their job, they'll come up with something in due time.

I know that it will. And I have stated that in my previous argument. Equilibrium will be achieved in any market and in any setting, BUT ONLY IN THE LONG RUN. AND IN THE LONG RUN WE'RE ALL DEAD. Seriously, the only reason we aren't being covered in 3ft of horse manure is the begining of the industrial revolution and agricultural revolution.

Sure, things will right itself. And we are moving towards much eco friendly sources of energy etc. But only because there was awareness etc. Without advocates of democracy, democracy would never happen. For any cause, there must be advocates. And i choose to advocate this. To the bystander, it looks like things happened naturally. But there are always forces pushing towards it.

could ya explain this to my landlord?

Sure, just tell me your name and address ^_~


starry~*

starry~* wrote:No even if GLOBAL WARMING is false, the fact that there is limited resources still will bring economic ruin in the future.

disputable. personaly i wouldn't worry too much. there's alway been limited resources and somehow economic ruin hasn't happened yet. there's lots of stuff out there that isn't considered "a resource" yet but will be in the future. we don't know what it is. oil, sun heat and uranium weren't resources 200 years ago.

I blieve that the solution doesn't start with government.

"believe"?? this isn't stuff of faith, it's a fact. goverment starts problems, not solutions.

For instance, my school is installing solar panels now etc

is yer school private or public?

AND IN THE LONG RUN WE'RE ALL DEAD.

but our children/grandchildren live.
(btw: they tried to stuff me head with that kinda slogans at uni, but it didn't work cos somehow i preffer to do me own thinking rather than accept slogans)

Sure, just tell me your name and address ^_~

phone number too?


and how about this:
assume we are the cause of global warming and we can fix it. how can we be sure we won't turn it into global bleedin' freezing?

"believe"?? this isn't stuff of faith, it's a fact. goverment starts problems, not solutions.

That's what many dissidents believe currently, but the government does do things that help us. Our system was designed to be inefficient, with bicameral legislature, judicial review, and checks and balances. You can't blame the gov for doing what it was designed to do: be so inefficient and factioned that tyranny can't exist.

is yer school private or public?

It's public.

but our children/grandchildren live.
(btw: they tried to stuff me head with that kinda slogans at uni, but it didn't work cos somehow i preffer to do me own thinking rather than accept slogans)

True, in the long run, our children and grandchildren live. But even the earth and the sun will die. It's not a slogan, it's a truth. Like grass is mostly green.

phone number too?

of course! And social security number is a must!

and how about this:
assume we are the cause of global warming and we can fix it. how can we be sure we won't turn it into global bleedin' freezing?

We already know the cause. global freezing is a result of global warming, aka, in the long run, everything fixes itself. Once the weather patterns get more and more extreme, there will be more obstructions of the sun reaching the earth. So the earth gets cooler and everything returns to equilibrium. But I don't see humans being to happy with that happeneing.
And if we do get it fixed, global freezing can be stopped the same way as global warming.

starry~* wrote:That's what many dissidents believe currently, but the government does do things that help us. Our system was designed to be inefficient, with bicameral legislature, judicial review, and checks and balances. You can't blame the gov for doing what it was designed to do: be so inefficient and factioned that tyranny can't exist.

aye. but the thing is this inefficient gov tries to stick it's inefficient, useless, dirty fingers in more and more aspects of our live screwing everything up. i call it "tyranny of stupid bureaucracy".

True, in the long run, our children and grandchildren live. But even the earth and the sun will die.

yer're talking veeery long runs.....

phone number too?

of course! And social security number is a must!

social security number?? ahh.. i think i have this one too... and date of birth, mother and father's names, shoe and hat size... ehmm... what else?

and how about this:
assume we are the cause of global warming and we can fix it. how can we be sure we won't turn it into global bleedin' freezing?

We already know the cause. global freezing is a result of global warming, aka, in the long run, everything fixes itself. Once the weather patterns get more and more extreme, there will be more obstructions of the sun reaching the earth. So the earth gets cooler and everything returns to equilibrium. But I don't see humans being to happy with that happeneing.
And if we do get it fixed, global freezing can be stopped the same way as global warming.

as i know humans they will only be happy when everything stays as it is now. changes?? God forbid!!
*wonders how come they can still survive all four seasons in one day *