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Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:00 am
by Thade
The problem of attempting to date the Earth that most Christians don't realize is that there is no time attached to Adam and Eve's life in the Garden of Eden. Therefore any attempt to extrapolate an age based of time lines given for births/deaths is fallible.
LiQuiD wrote:eg. the earth was literally created in a week---- bad
A day at the beginning of the Universe, before time really existed and was rather relevant, would not be the same length as the modern day that is 23hours and 57mins long.
Also, can you prove the Earth is as old as you say it is? and exactly how old do you say the Earth is?
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:20 pm
by Mister Sandman
Thade wrote:The problem of attempting to date the Earth that most Christians don't realize is that there is no time attached to Adam and Eve's life in the Garden of Eden. Therefore any attempt to extrapolate an age based of time lines given for births/deaths is fallible.
Thus, time is undefined.so is the amount of cheese it takes to crush a man. but i can still give an educated guess. the difference between the age you claim and the actual age, in terms of cheese, is the difference between a car sized cheese and a small mountain of it. that doesnt seem to be sensible now does it?
Irrelevant.
the bible doesnt teach maths eh? that age is arrived at by using the dates of births, deaths, events etc to calculate back to the 1st human. the dates overlap often enough to come up with the biblical 'age of creation'
"There is no statement in the Bible which indicates the age of the earth. ... If the scientists, or the pseudo-scientists, want to ascribe to the earth the age of a million, a billion, or three hundred billion years, I will not pause to argue the question with them now. Let their imagination play on, and their fancy with it, but when they get back to the beginning, it will be the beginning of the first sentence in the Bible, `In the beginning God.' That is all that the Bible affirms on the question." Foy E. Wallace
In terms of contextualisation; for the dates of peoples births and death, for peoples linage. For our term "father", "brother" ect... is different each culture.
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:38 pm
by n3M351s
Thade wrote:can you prove the Earth is as old as you say it is? and exactly how old do you say the Earth is?
I've tried reasoning with them before on this issue, but they wouldn't answer me directly. Their response was that evolution proves species developed over millions/billions of years, but then your stuck with the same question. Then there was that other response, "the bible is a lie therefore the world must be millions of years old."
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In all these debates concerning Christianity, Creation and the Bible whenever the opposing atheists, agnostics and evolutionists cannot answer the question they either ignore it (or the person who posted it), change the subject, or start with the person attacks. Its those people that need to have a step back and ask themselves why. What if their
scientific theories are wrong, why are there so many holes and missing links, why is it that they have so much confidence in what they believe is right and refuse to accept anything that contradicts that belief. How can you know and believe something is real unless you can see and prove it for yourself. Those people should take a long hard look at their own beliefs and try to see it from the opposing view point.
I have taken my own advice, and that only strengthens my beliefs.
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:51 pm
by agapooka
Why either or? How about this: nobody knows what the heck they're talking about.
Except, for me, obviously. Like, duh.
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:38 am
by Demeisen
where in the bible does it say time is undefined? seems like you jus make things up to reinforce your beliefs. meh its your delusion, have fun
evidence proving that the earth is older than the bible indicates has been shown here many times. the bible club ignores/acknowledges facts when they want. its like trying to teach sense to a stone surrounded by religious bubble wrap. the best that can be achieved is to pop a few bubbles.
if God created all life in its current form why did he/she create terrible viruses and diseases? and why do dangerous bacteria become resistant to drugs? that suggests they change due to human influence. by your reasoning they should remain the same, set as God made them.
*goes to sacrifice rolf harris to pagan gods*
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:53 am
by Miss4tunE
LiQuiD wrote:if God created all life in its current form why did he/she create terrible viruses and diseases? and why do dangerous bacteria become resistant to drugs? that suggests they change due to human influence.
Because men can't keep it in thier pants - and then where we gonna live?
Shopping malls can only grow so big
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:13 am
by Thade
LiQuiD wrote:where in the bible does it say time is undefined?
It doesn't say time is undefined. It simply does not account for every moment since creation therefore attempting to ascribe a date is ineffective.
evidence proving that the earth is older than the bible indicates has been shown here many times.
I don't read every post (just like you obviously don't). I was asking for someone to provide proof to me in response to my question...is that so hard to ask?
if God created all life in its current form why did he/she create terrible viruses and diseases? and why do dangerous bacteria become resistant to drugs? that suggests they change due to human influence. by your reasoning they should remain the same, set as God made them.
Hmm...I don't remember stating I didn't believe in evolution...could you point me to the post in which I say that? It is entirely within the realm of possibility that a God capable of creating an entire cosmos, a planet, and life on that planet would be capable of allowing that life to evolve as necessary. I am simply of the belief that God created man (rather than us simply having evolved from single celled organisms...I'm just that conceited). So why do bacteria become resistant to drugs? because doctors over prescribe antibiotics, thus in order to sustain their lives the bacteria must evolve...all part of God's plan.
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:02 am
by Demeisen
Thade wrote:It doesn't say time is undefined
so its an assumption with nothing to back it up. the above statement clearly says that.
making random assumptions is not a rational thing to do.
peter pan (the book) doesnt say anything about physics, but i still maintain it proves electricity is all about elections. as in the circuit votes on whether to blow your bulb (or pc
)
oh sure you may say theres no proof or mention of my claim but that doesnt matter right? its just an assumption and by your way of thinking it must be true or at least cannot be proven wrong.
Thade wrote:I don't read every post (just like you obviously don't). I was asking for someone to provide proof to me in response to my question...is that so hard to ask?
not at all. but why provide more proof only for it to be dismissed by foolish people.
apparently you dont read much of anything if you dont know the approximate age of the earth. do you consciously skim over facts you come across or is it a subconscious thing caused by indoctrination? i wonder . . .
hint hint you're the chicken and the nets a web of lies
i think God could be responsible for the entire universe. note how that cannot be proven wrong. its not so stupid to believe something that cant be scientifically shown to be false. yet the bible club believe things which have been definitively proven wrong.
i wont say jesus didnt do miracles as theres no evidence. i wont attack the core of sensible christian beliefs. my beef is with a supposedly 'good' religion forcing lies upon the faithful.
Miss4tunE wrote:Because men can't keep it in thier pants - and then where we gonna live?
Shopping malls can only grow so big
hey hey its a 2 way thing missy. cant blame everything on dudes (except golf. we take the blame for that one, sry
)
world population would be insane if disease didnt exist. the malaria fly has killed more ppl than every war in history. fear the fly, fear him well
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:19 am
by Thade
LiQuiD wrote:Thade wrote:It doesn't say time is undefined
so its an assumption with nothing to back it up. the above statement clearly says that.
Taking things out of context invalidates your argument.
Thade wrote:I don't read every post (just like you obviously don't). I was asking for someone to provide proof to me in response to my question...is that so hard to ask?
not at all. but why provide more proof only for it to be dismissed by foolish people.
Calling someone else foolish belittles only yourself.
apparently you dont read much of anything if you dont know the approximate age of the earth. do you consciously skim over facts you come across or is it a subconscious thing caused by indoctrination? i wonder . . .
Since you apparently haven't read everything...(quoted from earlier in this thread)
Thade wrote:fireball37 wrote:1. The bible and science do not coexist on most matters, consider evolution, the age of the Earth, and the existence of a global flood.
Evolution is not precluded in the Bible it simply states that God created things...not the manner in which he did so. I could state that I created my computer. Did I speak a word and it magically appeared? No. I bought the individual components (which themselves had been created from various other components all the way back to raw resources which are composed of base molecules which are composed of base atoms etc. Thus a sufficiently advanced manipulation of physics and quantum mechanics could create anything desired from pure energy) and assembled those components into this computer thus I created it. This (link) proves scientifically both Global Flood and a different age than is commonly accepted.
i think God could be responsible for the entire universe. note how that cannot be proven wrong. its not so stupid to believe something that cant be scientifically shown to be false. yet the bible club believe things which have been definitively proven wrong.
Any good scientist is always willing to accept as possible that which has not been proven impossible. Any great scientist never says anything is impossible (though highly improbably is another matter). As for things that have been proven wrong...example?
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:22 am
by Demeisen
Thade wrote:Taking things out of context invalidates your argument.
not really mate.
Thade wrote:LiQuiD wrote:
where in the bible does it say time is undefined?
It doesn't say time is undefined. It simply does not account for every moment since creation therefore attempting to ascribe a date is ineffective.
thats quite a simple question and answer. how was i taking your statement out of context? the rest of what you wrote (put in italics) doesnt contradict your statement or make it false if not included? methinks you just wanted to reject my point but couldnt think of a reason so ya jumped on the context ship, which promptly sunk.
Thade wrote:Calling someone else foolish belittles only yourself.
foolish people dont see truth despite all the evidence. if you thought that was directed at you it wasnt. although if you thought it was then maybe its because you dont see truth despite all the evidence, on occasion. . .
did you highlight jokes in blue? well thats not entirely fair. the last part with the link is the joke and you NOahitThade wrote:As for things that have been proven wrong...example?
the age of the earth according to the bible
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:05 pm
by agapooka
Everything makes sense if you believe that an evil/imperfect demiurge created the Earth. The following classical arguments are invalidated:
1. Why are there viruses and disease?
2. Why do some species have appendages and/or organs that they don't need?
3. What's up with threats of eternal torture from a supposedly loving god?
I'm authentically flabbergasted that gnosticism doesn't have a greater following.
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:47 pm
by Demeisen
Agapooka wrote:Everything makes sense if you believe that an evil/imperfect demiurge created the Earth. The following classical arguments are invalidated:
keep it quiet dude or The Man might throw some lightning your way
nice point about unnecessary things in animals. thought of that but forgot to write it. glad you were on the ball today cos im chillin
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:01 pm
by Thriller
Agapooka wrote:
1. Why are there viruses and disease?
2. Why do some species have appendages and/or organs that they don't need?
3. What's up with threats of eternal torture from a supposedly loving god?
From the bible i learned he does it to screw with us. It's like god is 5 and we are all his play things.
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:28 pm
by agapooka
Hey, they aren't *my* questions. I just keep hearing them from people who attack the Bible. Now, now, if people would only consider that the creator of the physical universe is inherently evil and/or imperfect, they wouldn't need to ask those questions.
I'm a theist (with the space
), myself. I just like to state the obvious that nobody else is willing to state.
[spoiler]For those of you interested in the gnostic point of view, which I'm having fun reading about... here ya go
The gnostics believed that most of us are spiritual beings trapped in an inherently evil physical realm, created by the demiurge. In this belief system, the divine creator is the creator of the spiritual realm, of which most cannot be aware, by virtue of being trapped in the evil realm, which encompasses the physical realm, the astral and other levels of so-called enlightenment that many religions attempt to reach.
I have read that they believed that reincarnation and karma are evil systems, the ultimate purpose of which is to break the spirit and absorb its energy. Various beliefs systems (read: religions) are used on earth to cause individuals to be in a constant state of guilt and/or be influenced into doing things that are nefarious to their spiritual wellbeing (by virtue of their ego superceding their spirit's nature and therefore any connection that they may have to the divine creator). At death, they will be "judged" and many whose spirits are weak will be duped into giving up their spirits to the evil system, in order that it may absorb its energy. Otherwise, they are forced to reincarnate (with convenient amnesia) to further weaken their spirit to such a point that it may be relinquished.
Physical well-being (affluence, comfort, etc.) has no positive effect, nor does leading a hard life. The exception being that one of the two is more likely to create a distance from the rest of the world, which by reducing spiritual awareness, makes it more prone to attack.
This is my understanding of the general gnostic belief. It's fun to think and read about. XD[/spoiler]
Re: The validity of the Christian Bible
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:22 am
by n3M351s
LiQuiD wrote:if God created all life in its current form why did he/she create terrible viruses and diseases? and why do dangerous bacteria become resistant to drugs? that suggests they change due to human influence. by your reasoning they should remain the same, set as God made them.
Viruses and diseases were the result of the
Fall of Man. Man sinned and bought curses and death upon the world.