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[KMA]Avenger wrote:i don't really know the chemistry make-up of opium so i was talking from an ignorant point of view, a point of view i never thought of changing because i've always associated the opium plant with some of the stronger drugs and with injecting ones self, so thanks to kit-fox for the info.

with regards to sandmans statement regarding addiction to fast food, i think its more a case of convenience, people have grown more wealthy and have more spare cash (well, until the recent crash that is), and we have grown lazy, its easy to pop into your car and go to the local drive through and save yourself of the bother of cooking the food then cleaning the dishes...if Mcd's vanished over night, i cant see anyone getting withdrawal symptoms because they can no longer get their fix of big macs.

Drek wrote:Mr Sadman said, "And your point is?...." also "Yah so? "

Well my point is that the fact that there is a correlation between cannabis use and mental illness does not neccesarily mean that cannabis use caused the mental illness. Comparative to a long term smoker someone who smokes a bit of ganja occassionaly is doing far less damage to themselves because they are overall exposing their respiratory system to less tar, carcenogens etc. People don't smoke joints like they are Lucky Strikes ie. it is very rare to find someone who chain smokes weed. So compared to legal drug's such as nicotine it is likely that cannabis is the lesser evil.

Yes, Cannabis just triggered the metal illness. As far as I am concerned , it doesn't really matter, the mental illness is exacerbated.

The lesser evil would be not even smoking or doing mind altering drugs... And for your info, more people would chain smoke weed if it were legal..

Kit-Fox wrote:Actaully and I hate to be the one to bring this up but its incredibley hard to become psyhically addicted (ie your body needs it) to drugs such as cannabis, opium etc.

The drugs simply dont change your body chemistry on any long term, the addiction is all in your head. This is somewhat different to the family of drugs that say barbituates belongs to which are psyhically addictive & also hence why they are no longer used in such a flippant manner by the medical profession.

But opium especially is the source of many analgesics, without which pain managemnt of some illnesses or traumas would be impossible.

Again this is assuming pure forms of the drug that are unadulterated with any other chemical/drug and are used in a responsible manner.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:with regards to sandmans statement regarding addiction to fast food, i think its more a case of convenience, people have grown more wealthy and have more spare cash (well, until the recent crash that is), and we have grown lazy, its easy to pop into your car and go to the local drive through and save yourself of the bother of cooking the food then cleaning the dishes...if Mcd's vanished over night, i cant see anyone getting withdrawal symptoms because they can no longer get their fix of big macs.

Kit-Fox wrote:There are suprisingly very few drugs/chemicals upon which the human can become psyhically addicted too. Most people become addicted sipmly because they lack the willpower or education to use such drugs responsibly or with care, or they do pay attention to what else was mixed into the drug (which changes how it must be handled & used)

90% of all addictions are purely mental, even niccotene dispite what the uk gov might try to make you believe with their anti-smoking ads (that it affects your brain chemistry on a semi permanent basis) isnt psyhically addictive (at least not in the quantities most would use by smoking ciggarettes)

Mister Sandman wrote:As I said easier, it doesnt matter. People are weak and do not how to be responsible. So for the safety of all drugs should be illegal.

Deaths_Rider wrote:

Mister Sandman wrote:As I said easier, it doesnt matter. People are weak and do not how to be responsible. So for the safety of all drugs should be illegal.

spoken like someone with a true god complex


who are you to say what people can and cant be trusted with before saying the statistics back me up ect as kit fox has been trying to say and you have been ignoring the pure form of naturaly occuring drugs is so much less harmfull than what ends up on the street. just like proabhition where people went blind from drinking methonal thinking it was booze people now smoke weed that has been laced with all kinds of toxins that don't occur natuaraly.

there is a huge diference between physical and mental addiction

a physical addiction will cause huge pain when stop a mental only huge craving

Who am i to say what people can and cant be trusted with? Well, I am a human, and I know what people can and cant be trusted with. And statistics back me up.

There is no huge difference between physicall and mental addiction. You say a physicall addiction will cause huge pain, and a metal addiction only create a huge craving, well your wrong, pain is a mental mindset. Mental addictions give out pain.

Also, with the purity argument it wont work, because people are always looking for a cheap fix, and with that we would have to allow other drugs on the same pretences.

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Mister Sandman wrote:Say if a society believes doing weed isn't hazardous to ones health. Therefore weed is good. Thus, weed is legalised.

However, the fact(truth) is weed does harm ones health. Therefore, weed is 'evil'. Thus, weed is illegal.

i decided to split this as well lol



there is actual fact, medical and living proof/evidence that weed is a powerful pain killer and very medicinal, so powerfully medicinal in fact that Hemp Oil cures cancer and many other ailments...

so, please explain or provide proof that weed is in fact evil/harmful.

please also bear in mind that tobacco and many prescription drugs are FAAAAAR more damageing to you health than weed, and yet weed is banned...now why is that?

and just for the record, i dont smoke weed and only smoked it 4/5 times in my early 20's.

Kit-Fox wrote:There is a huge differenece Sandman and the fact that you think there isnt just shows how blind stupid you are.


The difference in case you arent aware is that a psyhical addiction to drugs such as barbituates will kill you. It will kill you if you continue to take the drug & it will kill you if you stop taking the drug.

A mental addiction is just a craving, you body wont sacrfice parts of itself if you lose access to the drug nor will it change its psyiology to reuire those drugs to function.

Hence the difference is somewhat huge. I see you 17 in your profile & Usually I hate to bring age into tihngs like this but you might find that in 5/6 years time after college/uni or having a job for a few years you might see things a little differently. Its been my experience that most un 18 still have a pure kind of morality without a good understanding of how most tihngs work out in the real world.

Mister Sandman wrote:Who am i to say what people can and cant be trusted with? Well, I am a human, and I know what people can and cant be trusted with. And statistics back me up.

Kit-Fox wrote:I wasnt attacking your message I was simply trying to say that you may in a few years time see things a little less black&white. There are lots of shades of grey out there & its been my experience that the younger folks here havent always found those shades of grey or havent fully understood.

Who knows you might just find you do see things differently in 4/5 years time & might look back at what you've said here & think to yourself that it was a foolish outlook, or you might not. We cant know till we get to that point.

Deaths_Rider wrote:if you alredy have "lived more than a 40 year old" then does that mean your half way to the grave now

Lived more than a 40 year old meaning, seen more experienced more, learned more.

Mister Sandman wrote:Who am i to say what people can and cant be trusted with? Well, I am a human, and I know what people can and cant be trusted with. And statistics back me up.

aragont to match the best of them seriously you should be a lecturer or a pollition that's the only place you will get away with statements like that

And that is an insult how?

because you know? please that is not an argument! niether is statistics as there are just as many studys that say it should be legal or it helps with so and so. to the point it is now a perscription drug in some areas.

It is an argument, I know how fallible men are and thus, they should be protected. Their weakness is the ultimately the downfall.

back on addiction yes your mind can kill you but the reason mental withdrawl is so bad is the underlying mental state of the user whatever drove them to use in the first place is still there as is there hate of life or themsevles this has nothing to do with the drug people that use them recreationally have little problem getting off little more than a caffine addiction but easily managed if you are mentally tuff.


a physical addiction is much more serious it will rack your body with pain that dosen't go away after a certain period of time it only dulls as your body has begun to function normally on the drug. like a an alcoholic that never gets a hangover because they now function better with the booze but that if they stop it will kill them

And you would say that you are physically addicted to food. Your argument has no merit. The Mental and Physical atmosphere are indeed linked. An addiction will kill you. No matter what type it is.

Kit-Fox wrote:Btw , just reading the thread title again I thought of something. How can an inanimate object be evil? You'd hardly describe a tree or hedge evil but they can grow fruit that is poisonous. You wouldnt describe a hammer as evil and yet it can be used to bash someones skull in.

That is [KMA]Avenger mistake. lol ask him...

People are evil, the drugs arent the problem they are neither evil nor are they bad that just plain are.

edit: oh and since you decided to get tetchy Sandman I'd ask you not to tell me what my understanding is of anything every again thank you. I dont tell you what your understanding of anything is (although I question if its the right understanding)


techy?

Drek wrote:Mr Sandman said, "Yes, Cannabis just triggered the metal illness. As far as I am concerned , it doesn't really matter, the mental illness is exacerbated."

You (perhap's wilfully) misunderstood what I wrote, I was saying that this hypothetical person was already mentally ill or depressed. They one day try cannabis and find it makes them feel different, happier. They then quite rationally want to repeat this experience because it aleviates's their symptom's. Also just because someone takes drug's does not automatically mean their mental state is changed beyond the immediate effects ie long term personality change (of course the evidence suggest's that long term use can cause problem's).

It is no question that Cannabis is a mind altering drug and therefore taking away reality placing the person in a fantasy land. It has been shown in many many studies that a long term use of cannabis permanently scars someone. Just an example, the scars on the wrist of a kid who finds it easier to deal with life by cutting himself because it takes away the other pains of the world. Cannabis has the same effect, no not physical scars, but it scars the overall intelligence, and long term growth of the person. It scars lungs, it is highly unhealthy, and thus, illegal.

Also he said, "The lesser evil would be not even smoking or doing mind altering drugs".

This statement has merit, but it is your own view or "opinion" it may not be applicable to everyone on this planet namely because each individual has a different set of personal ideas and ideals.

It isnt my own opinion, it is a plain downright fact.


And then, "And for your info, more people would chain smoke weed if it were legal.."

How did you come to this amazing conclusion, what evidence do you have to back it up? Given from the tone of your posting's in this topic you do not and have not taken cannabis so have no personal experience in what smoking it entails or how much it take's to get stoned. Most people I know who smoke or have smoked in the past smoke enough to get high then stop because once there, there is really no point in burning more weed to no discernable effect. Also to make another point look at the prohibition era America, the criminalisation of possesing and using Alcohol did little to reduce consumption it encouraged black marketeering, gansterism and lead to valuable tax dollars and police time on enforcing what essentially was an unenforcable set of laws.

1. Ive seen friends stuff up their lives due to this drug. Some even died as a overall result, not because of cannabis but because cannabis dulled their brains into not thinking right.

2. My evidence for a chain pot smoker, well, think of this, if pot was as readily available as cigarettes.... what would you get, both give you lung cancer but one gives you an amazing high.



Also, "As I said easier, it doesnt matter. People are weak and do not how to be responsible. So for the safety of all drugs should be illegal."

I strongly resent this you are implying that I don't know how to be responsible and that I'm weak. You Sir are an arrogant, restrictive... I won't continue for fear of getting banned off the forum. But to deconstruct this point, did I read correctly? ALL drugs should be illegal? What about antibiotics, antihistamines, antidepressants and painkillers. Without these advancement's in medicine we would be medically in Medeval times.


The fact are, people are weak and irresponsible. Would you allow a patient if you were a fully trained doctor to self medicate? No because as a fully trained doctor, you would have the sense that, the patient has a 90% probability in not knowing what s/he has, what to take, and how much to take and how often.

Yes I am arrogant. Yes I am restrictive. People NEED boundaries. Boundaries give freedom.

Medicinal drugs, i hope, are fully tested and have all known side effects noted. And generally a large majority, do not experience such effects.

Yes you can OD on painkillers,and you can get addicted to them. However, for the general population can be counted on to know how much to take. Also, there the drugs are measured to suitable dosages. Now, how the hell can we do that with cannabis straight off the plant. You cant it is impossible to tell how much of a high you are going to get.

Overall, the conmen person, would have no clue what so ever in dealing with drugs.



And again, "Lets not forget that your mind can kill you. While a mental addiction may be just a craving, a junkie might go though some means of getting such illicit materials to feed his habits thus exposing him or her to situations that can just as easily kill him.

Take the normal garden variety junky. To get his next fix he might steal form people to get money to get it. He might even commit murder for money. Thus, he can be planted in may situations by drug lords, so that he may die, or he may get arrested and go to jail."

Might. Just because a person take's drugs does not mean that their moral fibre get's overwritten by the need to obtain more drugs.Happens alot of times.. Many quite respectable people who smoke cannabis hold down jobs, own a house etcLike lawyers.... Drugs aren't to blame for an individual persons actionsSome times it is, everyone makes their own choices.Unless you are completely high and have no control, like what weed does.

I am suprised that someone even at 17 could be as naive as you appear to be, please understand I am not trying to be unpleasant by saying that. Just try have a more open outlook on life it would be a pity if your veiws became rigid at such a young age.

It is more sad to see people who have such flexible moral fibres. Everyone should draw a line, not be fickle.