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Well, I must say this prolly isn't the best way to have approached this, but hey, no body is perfect.


I just want to throw a few few points and opinions out there for everyone to consider.

The Oms position was created when there was 1 admin, and there were many complaints that the 1 admin set up was "to corupting" and when 1 person holds all the power things tend to go wrong.

Smoosh as the last single admin set up the 3 admin system, we like to call "the triade". This means no 1 Admin holds all the keys. It takes 2 admins in agreeance to perform or carry out actions. This has proven to be as hard as it is helpful to admin staff, but since its introduction there have been no "real" acts of "monarchy".

What does this mean for the Oms position?

Well it means that as far as "claims of Bias" and a system of "checks and balances" they are not needed nearly as much as they once were. I personally still say the entire role of the Oms should never have been centered on "mod vs user" issues. It should be based on ANY forum user issue. They should be the voice of the people, voted for by the people. Anything the users want added, removed, or amended they should take to the oms. As far as I am concerned, the Oms do often help the admin staff by sorting out some issues before being brought before admins. The do alot of reseaching and that saves admins time. Unfortunately yes forum users to abuse the Oms position by make frivolus claims. The oms also demonstrate that often not only do the 3 admins agree, but also the oms, which is the voice of the people. This helps to show there is no "great coruption" in the 3 admin system.

Is it still needed? Well thats not entirely for me to say. I say that as for the "mod vs user" issues alone, No the are not needed. The 3 admins are enough to handle these situations. Looking back at the section speaks fairly well on this. As for the position itself, if its going to be all it can be, and be what it should be, then Yes it should still exist. Finding ways to better the forums, helping people comunicate with the right people and in the proper manner is a servise thats invaluable. Having a group/person to help the average forum refine request and stremline ideas to make it easier to understand and to consider is something I as an admin am greatful for.

Giving Oms more power? Well what more power do they need? As it stands now you have 3, not 1, but 3 people who over see things. Do we need 5? 4 can't work due to deadlock or 50/50 splits. If you are concerned that the 3 are corrupt, then how long till the 5 are corrupt? then the 7? When will it end?

I'm all for refining, or redefining the role. As long as its done correctly and in due course, and I am not personally against its removal if all its going to be used for is making complaints since the 3 admins are the judges. Its a system that has worked so far with no credible complaint as a whole. There is no monarchy.

Lore wrote:Giving Oms more power? Well what more power do they need? As it stands now you have 3, not 1, but 3 people who over see things. Do we need 5? 4 can't work due to deadlock or 50/50 splits. If you are concerned that the 3 are corrupt, then how long till the 5 are corrupt? then the 7? When will it end?

When Sauron is defeated and the One Ring burnt in Mount Doom.. sorry, but the similarity with LotR is just uncanny.


Isn't this something we could have gotten on one line on first though?

As I've said many many many times over the last year, the Ombudsman was never intended to be solely about mod vs user issues, the Oms was meant to facilitate communication between the users and staff, the vox populi(Voice of the People). But the last two Oms have twisted and perverted that role, molding it to fit their own agenda as opposed to what they should have been doing(no offense to Pianomutt). Pianomutt wanted more red tape, Manetheren wants absolute power.

Jack wrote:As I've said many many many times over the last year, the Ombudsman was never intended to be solely about mod vs user issues, the Oms was meant to facilitate communication between the users and staff, the vox populi(Voice of the People). But the last two Oms have twisted and perverted that role, molding it to fit their own agenda as opposed to what they should have been doing(no offense to Pianomutt). Pianomutt wanted more red tape, Manetheren wants absolute power.

I coudnt agree more

Universe wrote:

Lore wrote:Giving Oms more power? Well what more power do they need? As it stands now you have 3, not 1, but 3 people who over see things. Do we need 5? 4 can't work due to deadlock or 50/50 splits. If you are concerned that the 3 are corrupt, then how long till the 5 are corrupt? then the 7? When will it end?

When Sauron is defeated and the One Ring burnt in Mount Doom.. sorry, but the similarity with LotR is just uncanny.


Isn't this something we could have gotten on one line on first though?

No, I gave my answer in the manner I intended for it to be recieved, if you are only intrested in one small part that is fine, but my answer is much more then just that

FreeSpirit wrote:

Jack wrote:As I've said many many many times over the last year, the Ombudsman was never intended to be solely about mod vs user issues, the Oms was meant to facilitate communication between the users and staff, the vox populi(Voice of the People). But the last two Oms have twisted and perverted that role, molding it to fit their own agenda as opposed to what they should have been doing(no offense to Pianomutt). Pianomutt wanted more red tape, Manetheren wants absolute power.

I coudnt agree more

agree on the first, not so much on the latter.

It always amazes me the optimism and nievity of people who believe fairness and equality exist

Human nature is basically greedy, competitive and selfish, and this is reflected in every aspect of life and games, games themselves are created specifically to cater for these needs, something to try and be the best at, the biggest, most feared, most liked etc, for those who wont ever be the best at anything in RL, I doubt there are any Gold Medal winning athletes or Nobel prize winners playing SGW

As with all things there is an exception and I am it, I am the worlds greatest lover and the only reason I play is to kill time while my balls refil and jaw stops aching

Can i just reiterate, That although its well and good being able to settle problems between mods and users, And admins, Amoung themselves, Sometimes people just dont feel like the mods or the admins will want to know, be this the case or not, the Ombudsperson does give people a sense of "This is someone i can go to if ive got a problem and dont want to directly speak to the authority on it" .

Surely the very fact that it puts peoples minds at ease over such situations is reason enough for its existance? I hear talk of reform, Reform to what? More power? It has no power, it was never meant to. All it was meant to do was look after forum users, it doesnt need to bring stupid cases to admins attensions, Nor does it need to try and tell mods what to do, It is however, there for when people need to speak to someone who isnt a mod or admin about a forum based issue. Surely you would not wish to alienate some people by removeing there "Outlet" ? You can say , well, why not, we are not biased, sure, your not, But neither are (most) cops, Doesnt mean people trust em. Right?

As has been said, It is not perfect, But i feel it is something that should be used, Perhaps more debate and disscussion should be had on its future, but i would be dissapointed to see the position disolved entirely.

Either way, i feel the need to point out, that it was never our fate to stop judgent day, but merely to survive it.

buck wrote:Can i just reiterate, That although its well and good being able to settle problems between mods and users, And admins, Amoung themselves, Sometimes people just dont feel like the mods or the admins will want to know, be this the case or not, the Ombudsperson does give people a sense of "This is someone i can go to if ive got a problem and dont want to directly speak to the authority on it" .

Surely the very fact that it puts peoples minds at ease over such situations is reason enough for its existance? I hear talk of reform, Reform to what? More power? It has no power, it was never meant to. All it was meant to do was look after forum users, it doesnt need to bring stupid cases to admins attensions, Nor does it need to try and tell mods what to do, It is however, there for when people need to speak to someone who isnt a mod or admin about a forum based issue. Surely you would not wish to alienate some people by removeing there "Outlet" ? You can say , well, why not, we are not biased, sure, your not, But neither are (most) cops, Doesnt mean people trust em. Right?

As has been said, It is not perfect, But i feel it is something that should be used, Perhaps more debate and disscussion should be had on its future, but i would be dissapointed to see the position disolved entirely.

Either way, i feel the need to point out, that it was never our fate to stop judgent day, but merely to survive it.

I am not entirely sure 'most' users agree with you as to what they see this position for.....if it was intended to be as the name suggests then the priveleges or (power) given to it is pitiful. I know from previous experience (certain) mods....and I admit not all...........do not care to listen to reason and are only seeking to out their personal vendettas.

To be completely honest I don't care either way....i've never had the need to approach the ombudsman....maybe because I don't care enough when things are done wrong...as it's to be expected. But in the total interest of fairness of course this position should exist...and of course it should come with power.

It seems to be 2 solutions...scrap it or use it how it should be used! End of the day if every mods meets the best of their ability without prejudice then it should be very rare the ombudsman needs to do anything. Seems to me the people abusing their power have most to lose

deni wrote:I think we all agree that the last election was a farce ... extended voting times, ingame id checks etc

Why does that comment not surprise me coming from you?

As the others have said, the Ombudsmen serves as a valuable outside influence on the system and fresh eyes on a problem. It's not the ombudsmen's problem that others have chipped away at the position's rights over the last few months. If anything, its rights should be fully restored to give it back its decision making power.

And about the fact we have 3 admins now. Well, to assume that a 2/3 majiority can't make a poor decision once in awhile is an arrogrant assumption at best. What is wrong with having a check in place for that?

Mathlord wrote:

deni wrote:I think we all agree that the last election was a farce ... extended voting times, ingame id checks etc

Why does that comment not surprise me coming from you?

As the others have said, the Ombudsmen serves as a valuable outside influence on the system and fresh eyes on a problem. It's not the ombudsmen's problem that others have chipped away at the position's rights over the last few months. If anything, its rights should be fully restored to give it back its decision making power.

And about the fact we have 3 admins now. Well, to assume that a 2/3 majiority can't make a poor decision once in awhile is an arrogrant assumption at best. What is wrong with having a check in place for that?

And what checks do you propose we put on the Ombudsman? Orr do you just happen to like the idea of Manetheren having absolute power and don't actually care about checks and balances as you claim? Because from where I'm sitting, all you really want is for Manetheren to have absolute power, one must question the motives behind such a desire.

Absolute Power? **Filtered** off with that joke.

Mathlord, you have to realize that a majority of the votes for Manetheran came from players who haven't done anything on this forum or logged in to even read this forum in over 6 months. For example..Pef? Where the hell does he come from after being inactive for almost a year? There's more but I'd have to go to the list to get the exact names and quiet frankly, I'm not in the mood to argue points with you.

Why does an Ombudsman need absolute power? Nothing really except to have more pull in what happens in this forum.

Noobert wrote:Absolute Power? **Filtered** off with that joke.

Mathlord, you have to realize that a majority of the votes for Manetheran came from players who haven't done anything on this forum or logged in to even read this forum in over 6 months. For example..Pef? Where the hell does he come from after being inactive for almost a year? There's more but I'd have to go to the list to get the exact names and quiet frankly, I'm not in the mood to argue points with you.

Why does an Ombudsman need absolute power? Nothing really except to have more pull in what happens in this forum.

The Ombudsman is an elected official of the people of this forum. Just about the only position that the people do choose. There is your check right there. Don't like the power? Shorten the term in office.

Now we both know the voting was split down FUALL/TTF lines primarily. There were plenty of cases on both sides of irregular forum users voting, but that is not the issue here as we've had that conversation before. The point is you stripped the powers of the ombudsmen preventing him from doing the duty he was elected to fulfil.

[spoiler]

Mathlord wrote:

Noobert wrote:Absolute Power? **Filtered** off with that joke.

Mathlord, you have to realize that a majority of the votes for Manetheran came from players who haven't done anything on this forum or logged in to even read this forum in over 6 months. For example..Pef? Where the hell does he come from after being inactive for almost a year? There's more but I'd have to go to the list to get the exact names and quiet frankly, I'm not in the mood to argue points with you.

Why does an Ombudsman need absolute power? Nothing really except to have more pull in what happens in this forum.

The Ombudsman is an elected official of the people of this forum. Just about the only position that the people do choose. There is your check right there. Don't like the power? Shorten the term in office.

Now we both know the voting was split down FUALL/TTF lines primarily. There were plenty of cases on both sides of irregular forum users voting, but that is not the issue here as we've had that conversation before. The point is you stripped the powers of the ombudsmen preventing him from doing the duty he was elected to fulfil.

[/spoiler]

THERE. HAS. BEEN. NO. POWERS. REMOVED.

for gods sake people, is it so hard for people to understand? the only thing that has happened "over the last few months" with the ombudsman position is that it has gotten MORE power, NOT LESS. Seriously people, does it make ANY sense to you that a community elected representative should overturn 2/3 of the admin staff, Admin staff who by the way were authorised by Admin Jason to act? seriously now, just look at the garbage you're typing here. try and tell me the ombudsman should have more power. i'd normally laugh at you but this has gone FAR too far.

~soul

deni wrote:I think we all agree that the last election was a farce ... extended voting times, ingame id checks etc

The process was not perfect - Democracy never is.
Every player got a vote by having to insert their game ID.

This removed the chance of people voting more than once using multiple Forum accounts.

Personally I would have prefered to see someone outside FUALL and TF get the position, as would many others. However, Empires like FUALL with more than 10 Alliances simply have the numbers to make the most votes. Its the same with the Forum Awards.

Personally I think we should all be working on how to improve the Office of the Ombudsman, not remove it.

Solus wrote:for gods sake people, is it so hard for people to understand? the only thing that has happened "over the last few months" with the ombudsman position is that it has gotten MORE power, NOT LESS. ~soul

I drafted the New Ombudsman Staff position descriptions, which Lore reviewed and endorsed before posting in Announcements here. Buck was away at the time.

After receiving complaints about the new position description by some moderators, Lore spoke to Jason who then amended the roles and responsbilities of the Ombudsman Position Descriptions in the Moderator Forums.

The Ombudsman Staff remained concerned that these amendments reduced their role to secretaries and felt they should at least have a vote in cases so they contacted Jason directly.

No one told the community that these changes occurred because they they were simply clarification on how to interpret the rules.

What matters now is what we do to move the Office forward.

Especially since elections, if the community still want the position, will need to be organised soon as the 6 month term of office finishes on the 20 August 2009.