Sept 2009 - Defense Damage / Minimums

[deni]

It was changed back to 5 AT as the effect of the 15 AT was devastating ... massing a 100 bil MS caused costs of almost a tril for a 1+ tril MS and made massing bigger MS almost impossible because of the cost progression.

If Jason did not change it back to 5 AT, it would have been the end of MS massings/battles. We were there.

I don't see it as a bad thing personally. I havent been massed with a strike force in forever, its always just MS strafers who suffer menial loses in man power. To each their own I guess.

Yet it would have killed one aspect of the game.

well it has already "killed" one aspect of the game. No one keeps defenses because of massive MS and the fact the attacker takes minial losses of UU when massing. So its pretty much an even trade.

sure, and those 30 tril defenses popping up do not count

I do not know what you expect ... probably to be able to build a cheap 3 tril defense / 20 mil supers and never to be massed?

Building a massive MS was a conscious choice for some players. The amount invested in the MS would have gotten them about 1 mil raw UP. Why do you want to punish them but not the ones who decided against in built that UP?

[GOLDEN WING]

thank you guyz for some of us who would just like to cruise through SGW not fighting that much and just building stuff like a huge def and coverts have now got a chance because ME chasers always find u and the only way to give def builders a chance is to make it harder for the ones with a big strike to mass big defenses.

and in rl most defensive armies are fortified meaning the Attacking troops haft to storm the fortified building taking heavy losses resulting in a victory (Taking the NAQ) or losing the battle taking even more losses while retreating.

but i think this update should only work to your strike allone no help from MS or Planets to make them put more supers into strike just to make it fair.

[deni]

but i think this update should only work to your strike allone no help from MS or Planets to make them put more supers into strike just to make it fair.

Make it fair to whom? To you? But wouldnt that be unfair to others?

Lets say I did not invest heavily in my MS and attack planets but got myself a huge UP and some nice UP planets getting me an UP of say 3 mil per day. If I was to mass your defense then, would you say that it is not fair (whatever that means) because I have a better UP to losses ratio then yours? I guess not.

Why is no one moaning that big UP's have an unfair advantage? After all they grow and can recover faster then you?

I'd suggest you get rid of planets, motherships and attack supers/weapons, then you might be able to play your building game the way you want it ... after all, it is all unfair

[Sarevok]

Lets say I did not invest heavily in my MS and attack planets but got myself a huge UP and some nice UP planets getting me an UP of say 3 mil per day. If I was to mass your defense then, would you say that it is not fair (whatever that means) because I have a better UP to losses ratio then yours? I guess not.

Except that, a UP, when under the raid/farm cap, can easily be supplemented by raiding/buying UU. A income of 12/5B/turn average, would be equivalent of a 1m UP

[Lore]

sure, and those 30 tril defenses popping up do not count

I do not know what you expect ... probably to be able to build a cheap 3 tril defense / 20 mil supers and never to be massed?

Building a massive MS was a conscious choice for some players. The amount invested in the MS would have gotten them about 1 mil raw UP. Why do you want to punish them but not the ones who decided against in built that UP?

Well you obviously dont know what I expect if that what you think I expect LOL. I wonder where in the world you came up with that.

As to your point, you are 100% correct on it being a conscious choice, and I have not asked for anyone to be punished. If you had paid attention you would have noted this came from way before these massive MS existed.

But please explain why or how its fair for 1 person to lose 2 million men massing someone else and they lose 50 mill due to these truely unbalanced updates?

As I said to each his own. I dont like them but I dont matter. Doesnt stop me from not liking them. These are the rules we play by, these are game mechanics, and jason has no intention of changing them. Still doesnt mean I have to like them

[deni]

sure, and those 30 tril defenses popping up do not count

I do not know what you expect ... probably to be able to build a cheap 3 tril defense / 20 mil supers and never to be massed?

Building a massive MS was a conscious choice for some players. The amount invested in the MS would have gotten them about 1 mil raw UP. Why do you want to punish them but not the ones who decided against in built that UP?

Well you obviously dont know what I expect if that what you think I expect LOL. I wonder where in the world you came up with that.

As to your point, you are 100% correct on it being a conscious choice, and I have not asked for anyone to be punished. If you had paid attention you would have noted this came from way before these massive MS existed.

But please explain why or how its fair for 1 person to lose 2 million men massing someone else and they lose 50 mill due to these truely unbalanced updates?

As I said to each his own. I dont like them but I dont matter. Doesnt stop me from not liking them. These are the rules we play by, these are game mechanics, and jason has no intention of changing them. Still doesnt mean I have to like them

I would like the learn the art of massing a 9 tril defense (50 mil supers) with a 400 bil strike (2 mil supers). Please show me how it goes, because I do not know how but judging from your post you do know.

a hint: read the thread title

[Sarevok]

I would like the learn the art of massing a 9 tril defense (50 mil supers) with a 400 bil strike (2 mil supers). Please show me how it goes, because I do not know how but judging from your post you do know.

Is simple

Now, i notice that the word "supers" was used, meaning we can add mercs to the mix. Effectively adding another 1m supers (power wise), so the strength of the attack is now 600B [Total = 600B]

We can now take an 'average' Large MS, of 1T power, adding another 600B power (since it's limited to adding 100%) [Total = 1.2T]

We can then add 10 Attack planets, all capable of adding 50% of natural strike power to the mix. Natural strike being 600B, this is 300B/planet. Since we have 10 planets, this adds another 3T to the mix [Total 4.2T]

And there you have it. Since we only need 30% to damage the defense in the first place, but we have 4.2T total damage, instead of the minimum 3T, this defense will fall but with a measly 2M super units

Note: Even with planets of 200B, it would still reach the minimum power requirement (since the total in this case would be 3.2T)
Note2: I realist this DOESN'T amount for the defender getting blessed, however, damage is still possible, hence massing is also STILL possible (since losses are NOT being considered)

[deni]

so, we do not have 2 mil supers only but

1. 2 mil mercs plus
2. a MS with a 600 bil strike plus
3. 10 attack planets a 200 bil

against 50 mil supers. That is comparing apples to oranges.

To keep it "fair" (as you do like to misuse that word a way too much) add to your 50 mil defense supers

1. 50 mil mercs (~ 25 mil supers)
2. a MS with a strike of 600 bil and defense 600 bil (thus neutralising the attacker's MS
3. 10 defense planets a 200 bil defense

We have a 2.6 tril strike (MS does not add up to the damage as the defenderhas a MS too) against a 15 tril defense and so the strike is not high enough to damage the defense.


If you want to say that an account with a good set up (MS, planets) BUILT for attacking can mass cheaper that one that is built to "grow", then I agree with you ... it can mass cheaper because the owner decided to invest quadrillions of naq into that said good attack setup.


Anyways, I still want to know how 2 mil supers can mass 50 mil supers (assuming the 50 mil supers are all armed) not considering attack/defense planets and motherships.

[Sarevok]

so, we do not have 2 mil supers only but

1. 2 mil mercs plus
2. a MS with a 600 bil strike plus
3. 10 attack planets a 200 bil

against 50 mil supers. That is comparing apples to oranges.

No, thats showing that someone can invest 50m units into something, and have it effectively killed off by only 2m units. (The rest being Naq costs)

We have a 2.6 tril strike (MS does not add up to the damage as the defenderhas a MS too) against a 15 tril defense and so the strike is not high enough to damage the defense.

Incorrect. You discount the AB, which, when the attacker gets it, and the defender does not, gives the attacker a 5.2T strike, which would STILL allow the defense to be massed, as it is > 30% of the defense (which is 4.5T)

Anyways, I still want to know how 2 mil supers can mass 50 mil supers (assuming the 50 mil supers are all armed) not considering attack/defense planets and motherships.

As you just shown, and as Lore didn't specify solely being trained UU, it can be done with Naq covering the costs.

[deni]

so, we do not have 2 mil supers only but

1. 2 mil mercs plus
2. a MS with a 600 bil strike plus
3. 10 attack planets a 200 bil

against 50 mil supers. That is comparing apples to oranges.

No, thats showing that someone can invest 50m units into something, and have it effectively killed off by only 2m units. (The rest being Naq costs)

It is only possible after some heavy investments in MS/planets. It does not come for free. Or does the other cost not count?

An account that has NOT invested into an attack setup canNOT mass 50 mil defense supers with only 2 mil armed attackers. Period.

We have a 2.6 tril strike (MS does not add up to the damage as the defenderhas a MS too) against a 15 tril defense and so the strike is not high enough to damage the defense.

Incorrect. You discount the AB, which, when the attacker gets it, and the defender does not, gives the attacker a 5.2T strike, which would STILL allow the defense to be massed, as it is > 30% of the defense (which is 4.5T)

It allows single successful hits at the beginning. The moment the defender can defend an attack or does get an AB himself, your strike will be so low that you wont come through despite getting an AB. So no, AB does not allow the defense to be massed. Not with 2 mil armed attack supers without retraining.

Anyways, I still want to know how 2 mil supers can mass 50 mil supers (assuming the 50 mil supers are all armed) not considering attack/defense planets and motherships.

As you just shown, and as Lore didn't specify solely being trained UU, it can be done with Naq covering the costs.

Naq or uu are interchangable. You can trade one for the other. SO let me ask again, can 2 mil supers only strike mass a 50 mil supers only defense without insane attack planets or a huge MS?

[Sarevok]

Naq or uu are interchangable. You can trade one for the other. SO let me ask again, can 2 mil supers only strike mass a 50 mil supers only defense without insane attack planets or a huge MS?

As long as your army size is less then 350, but more efficient below 250.

It is only possible after some heavy investments in MS/planets. It does not come for free. Or does the other cost not count?

An account that has NOT invested into an attack setup canNOT mass 50 mil defense supers with only 2 mil armed attackers. Period.

And yet, that same investment, for defensive purposes is 20% as efficient (more like 17%, but 20 for arguments sake)

It allows single successful hits at the beginning. The moment the defender can defend an attack or does get an AB himself, your strike will be so low that you wont come through despite getting an AB. So no, AB does not allow the defense to be massed. Not with 2 mil armed attack supers without retraining.

But please explain why or how its fair for 1 person to lose 2 million men massing someone else and they lose 50 mill due to these truely unbalanced updates?

Notice it says loose 2M, not train only 2M supers? So it allows for re-training attack units (to maintain power), it allows for re-buying of weapons (both MS and realm), and allows for buying more mercs

[deni]

If you want to pick on semantics, so be it. But my question still stands:

Show me how someone without a huge MS and attack planets (ergo with no heavy investment in a strike setup) can mass a 9 tril defense loosing only 2 mil troops.

[Sarevok]

If i had kept a record of when my 4Tish defense fell to like 800k losses to Tokko, i would.

I sure he could have shown you how

[GOLDEN WING]

ok i see what u are saying Deni nut seriousily u can build a strike that can beat the defence of the player with 50mil def supers.

if they can go to that effort to make 50mil def supers (50x 600bil = 30T) 30T NAQ spent on weps and the 90bil per 1mil supers = 4.9T

* so everything added up 50mil def supers + weps costs the player 34.9T NAQ their shouldn't be a way for a person with a tiny strike to even dent a def like that.

this is just making it harder for the ppl to mass bigger defences giving them a challenge than a 5min massing session on ur supers.

Lore you are 100% correct this has made it even and now ppl with high incomes can be a bit safe building a 5-20T def and not waking up statless.

[deni]

If i had kept a record of when my 4Tish defense fell to like 800k losses to Tokko, i would.

I sure he could have shown you how

Read my question again please. Tokko had attack planets and a top 5 MS.


Fact is: The only way to mass a defense cheaply is to have a huge MS and nice attack planets. Those do not come for free though but require a heavy initial investment. The "cheap" massings are not a free lunch but the cashflows you get back on your initial investment in mothership and planets.


A good MS does cost about 1.5 quad naq. That is the equivalent of almost 2 bil uu you could have bought and trained into attack supers to mass away You reach break even when the cost (uu equivalent) of the big mothership and the killed own attack supers become less then the attack supers you would have killed without a big mothership. Ergo, a big MS enables you to mass cheaper, only after you would have killed at least 2 bil own attack supers in massings.