So why do we pray?

[Thriller]

That's rich coming from you.

[KnowLedge]

OK i agree with him thriller, dont make stupid comments.

Now, I dont understnad why its so importent to make a better relationship with god. What exactly is the point? So you can go to heaven?

seems 'cheap' to have to prey to go to heaven.. i think doing good deeds should let you go to heaven, no?
so god chooses preying/worshiping him over doing good deeds? seems like a pretty self centered being.

aside: I was watching sg1 season 9 again, and if i get to choose to follow the ori, id do it right away.. lol atleast they dont ignore us like gods in our galaxy.

[Mister Sandman]

Now, I dont understnad why its so importent to make a better relationship with god. What exactly is the point? So you can go to heaven?

seems 'cheap' to have to prey pray to go to heaven.. i think doing good deeds should let you go to heaven, no?
so god chooses preyingpraying/worshiping him over doing good deeds? seems like a pretty self centered being.

These questions are not exactly easy to answer.

The point of prayer, well there are many points. God is one of your friends now see the logic, how long can a friendship last without communication?
How strong is that bond between you and your friend if you do not talk, communicate?

So firstly, its the relationship.

The relationship brings forth the other reasons.

IF you have a mate, and you need a favour, you ask him right?
Same thing, You pray for things, such as health if you get sick, and other sorts of things.

So Second reason. Prayer for Needs.

Continuation from the the mate who did you a favour, you thank them right?

Again, same thing.

You pray to thank god for everything he has done in your life.

The thing is: Prayer on a regular basis is not a perquisite for going into heaven.


You ask, 'i think doing good deeds should let you go to heaven, no?'
Well No. It clearly states over and over Works Without Faith Are Dead.

Romans 8: (8) And those being in the flesh are not able to please God.

Now let's compare this with the first part of Hebrews 11:6:

Hebrews 11: (6) But without faith it is impossible to please God.

See the connection? God says that those who are in the flesh are not able to please God, and without faith it is impossible to please God. Those who are in the flesh are those without faith. Those without faith cannot do any truly good works. All their works are dead works and fruit unto death. So, you see, WORKS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD. So-called "good works" that flow from a person without faith are dead works.
Source:
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/worksfaith.htm


However,
James 2:20, "...that faith without works is dead."

Explanation:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-e-10.htm


That should answer the questions.

[Thriller]

It's not stupid just because you two don't get it

[KnowLedge]

wow ok, let me note that what you refer to is Christain belif. In Hinduism, deeds are actually given some value along with praying/worshiping.

also, here is what i dont understnad in those. you say that "without faith, it is impossible to please god". What i need help understanding is why must we please god? what is so imporetent about this being. he gives us powers and gets the work done?

from my point of view, THis law that "without faith, you can not please god" is a very self centered law made by god.

What im tryign to say is that "god forces us to worship him by saying that "if u worship me, u go to heaven, if not then there is nothing i can do about you.""
now this perticular system is what i find "cheap". The fact that if u worship him, ur good.. and if not, then ur 'dead'

[Mister Sandman]

It's not stupid just because you two don't get it

Its stupid attempt at trolling. So if you are not going to post anything relevant please spare me reading your text.

wow ok, let me note that what you refer to is Christain belif. In Hinduism, deeds are actually given some value along with praying/worshiping.

Deeds are given value in the Christian faith. We do not live in a Black and White world. "Good" and "Evil" are hard to define. What may be 'Good' deed to do can be 'evil' in another instance.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

In addition, in Hinduism, deeds are meaningless unless you follow that religion.

Which Brings me to, Works(deeds) without faith are dead; Faith without works(deeds) are dead.

also, here is what i dont understnad in those. you say that "without faith, it is impossible to please god". What i need help understanding is why must we please god? what is so imporetent about this being. he gives us powers and gets the work done?

If you do not believe in him, it is impossible to please God. Follow the logic?
1. God created us for this end, and hence has given us a conscience that universally demands that we should live to please God. He has made this our unalterable law and rule of action. We never fulfil the demands of conscience except as we live to please God.

2. His pleasure is always wise and good. He says, "I will do all my pleasure." It would not be right in any other being to say that; but in God it is right, for what else could he do? Nothing pleases him that is not wise and good. He never desires or wishes anything that is not wise and good.

3. To thus live to please God is true benevolence to him; it is to will his good, his highest happiness and well-being. This is the real idea of love to God. It is devotion to his good; or in other words, it is devotion to his gratification or pleasure; it is good-willing to God, willing his infinite happiness and satisfaction. It is aiming to satisfy all his wishes in regard to us; to meet and fulfill all his desires respecting us.

To please him is to gratify his fatherly heart. To please him we must meet his views respecting our obligation; we must meet his wishes, we must obey his will, must adjust ourselves to all that he wishes us to be and do.

He is then pleased with us; he is not grieved but gratified. Now to live with this continual aim to be all that God, under the circumstances wants us to be, is to live and walk so as to please God.

4. To please him is to gain his approbation; and this is not only a good to him, but it is a good to us. The love of approbation is natural to us, and especially the approbation of the good. And to have the approbation of God is of supreme importance to us.

It is a comfort to him to be able to approve the life that we live, as it is a comfort to parents to be able to approve the lives of their children. And it is a comfort to us to secure his approbation, as it is a comfort to children to secure the approbation of their parents. Nay, the comfort of receiving the approbation of God is infinitely more sweet, consoling, and joyous, than the approbation of all other beings together.

5. It follows, that to gain his approbation is to secure our own happiness. Hence to live to please him is the only sure way of pleasing ourselves. We cannot be satisfied with ourselves unless we are conscious of aiming to satisfy God. While we are conscious of not aiming to meet his approbation, we cannot secure our own approbation. To aim at pleasing him, then, in all we do, is a condition of securing our own happiness; and more than this, this aim will be sure to secure our own highest satisfaction.

6. It is right to aim in all things at pleasing God, because his pleasure is the most worthy end for which we can live. It is not living for an abstraction. Some people have thought that the end proposed was rather an abstraction than a reality.

But do you account it an abstraction to live to please your mother or your father, your wife, or your dearest friend? That is anything but an abstraction. Your wife, or husband, or friend, would account their own pleasure anything but an abstraction.

I have been amazed sometimes, to hear some people talk of the end of being as an abstraction, as if it were a mere idea, and not the profoundest reality in the universe. What! the end of sentient beings, and especially of moral beings, their highest satisfaction and perfect happiness, an abstraction! Verily, I pity the individual who regards the good pleasure of God as an abstraction--or the good pleasure of any good being.

7. To intend to please God is always safe. It is not safe to make the pleasure of any other being universally our aim. But God is infinitely wise and infinitely good, and we never need to fear to aim at fulfilling all his pleasure.

8. It is of no use to live to please ourselves. We never can please ourselves by making this our aim or end. We please ourselves in fact all the less by how much the more singly we aim to please ourselves. We cannot approve of living to please ourselves, and practically treating our own pleasure as the highest good.

Therefore we always violate the laws of our own nature, the laws of our conscience and higher reason, whenever we live to please ourselves. There is always an inward upbraiding, an inward struggle, a mutiny, a self-condemnation, when we live to please ourselves.

9. It is not right to make the pleasure of any other being than God our supreme end. This is idolatry. To live to please any other being than God, is to make that being our god, is to practice downright idolatry, is to place another in the very throne belonging to Jehovah.

10. It is not safe for us to live to please any other being than God; nor is it safe for them. To make another being our god, is to expose that being to destruction. God is a jealous God, he will not give his glory to another; and if we give another the throne of our hearts, it may prove the destruction of that idol, as well as our own destruction.

11. It is essential to peace with self, to peace with God, that we live, and walk, and aim in all things, to meet his pleasure.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/1861OE/61013 ... asegod.htm

from my point of view, THis law that "without faith, you can not please god" is a very self centered law made by god.

The question is what do we live for?

It isnt a law persay its more like the way the universe runs. You cannot truly please someone if you didnt have faith in them.

What im tryign to say is that "god forces us to worship him by saying that "if u worship me, u go to heaven, if not then there is nothing i can do about you.""
now this perticular system is what i find "cheap". The fact that if u worship him, ur good.. and if not, then ur 'dead'

The fact is, you are already saved by God's grace, tis whether you accept that grace or not. It isnt the worship part, or good deeds, or anything like that.

That is like a mother saying to her child if you behave i'll buy you that lolly.

A system built on that is ultimately flawed. Does God care if you worship him? Yes, however it is only because he cares for you. You are his son, ; for the ladies his daughters.

The thing is, without God you arnt really 'alive'.

[Thriller]

What an incoherent post, it's so unintelligible i would think that a 10 year old wrote it.


You didn't even answer his question properly just went of on some diatribe about why god enjoys us pleasing him that explains nothing of why he needs to be pleased.

1; God gives us our conscience and following our conscience pleases god?

This is so naive it's laughable...

So there is a person hanging on a ledge about to fall, and my conscience tells me to save him... so i do...the reason he got on the ledge was from being thrown from a car after hitting and killing a family in a drunk driving accident... but.. That was god's will then, and i have plzed god by saving that man.

This is a pretty fair example. I could have illustrated people throughout history doing what they believed was good and committing great injustices. But i didn't because the point is that consciences among people are subjective and often conflicting, we have never been able to universally define what is good and what is bad for this reason.

2:- 11:

Pleasing god is good because he is our master.....

WTH. there is so much incoherent nonsense it is hard to wade through.

You didn't address at all why god's need our worship and following, just that he likes it and this will plz him. Everything is stated as to be all self evident (as facts without any connection to the context.) For all those points to be true they have to be taken on faith because your reasoning is a priori on faith in Christian dogma. LAUGHABLE

Did god really create us?
Why is his pleasure always wise and good?.....

WHY DOES GOD NEED US TO PLEASE HIM?!!!!!!!

You just copy pasta that from a religious site because your probably are unable to think or rationalize on your own. You probably have never had an original idea in your entire life....

You only start to address the real question in the end with this statement

"Does God care if you worship him? Yes, however it is only because he cares for you"

Which makes no sense.

Basically you are stating that since god loves he needs our love back, therefor gods love would not be unconditional..

Then something about not being "alive without god"

What a JOKE of a post Sandman.

[Mister Sandman]

How about ill do a point form so your brain can actually follow.




1. Works mean nothing, without faith to God.
2. Faith is dead without works.

3. Putting it bluntly, God doesnt even need us. We dont need to please God it is not like we need to do anything. We would want to please God.

"Does God care if you worship him? Yes, however it is only because he cares for you"


Translation: If you do not believe in God, ect. ect. Where do you go?

Answer: Hell.

He cares about you and your choice to worship/not worship for he cares for your wellbeing.

Offtopic:

What a JOKE of a post Sandman.

That's rich coming from you.

[Thriller]

yah so pray to me..... or go to hell

Selfish....

[Mister Sandman]

yah so pray to me..... or go to hell

Selfish....

eh no,

not selfish, and not what you said.

As i said before,

You are already saved by God's grace, tis whether you accept that grace or not.

It isnt the worship part, or good deeds, or anything like that.

Logic being, if you were saved, you'd pray.

You dont have to persay, however, prayer is a way to communicate to God enabling you to get saved.

Like you dont have to go to church.

But it is beneficial.



I think you have troubles with definitions:


self·ish
   
/ˈsɛlfɪʃ/ Show Spelled[sel-fish] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
devoted to or caring only for oneself;
concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2.
characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.

Looking at the definition, it is hard to see that God would be anywhere near selfish.

As i mentioned before the reasons of prayer, it would be in the best interest of the human who prays. What does God get out of prayer, except for being pleased? Nothing. Why? Because well if you look at it, the world is in Gods hands.

[Ghoul]

Because it gives people something to believe in and follow. All of us need a purpose and this is one of many people can follow.

[Thriller]

I have never talked with someone so unintelligible

it's like sandman is some kind of logic deflector...

were going to have to go through this one step at a time

Christian world view.

1) GOD created everything
2) GOD made rules that we must follow
3) following these rules is the only way to achieve internal happiness.

Right sandy?

Okay so i need some straightforward answeres to these questions

On the existence of Evil
1) “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"


On the conscience
2) Please explain to me why Christians sought to persecute and commit atrocities in the name of GOD, believing these terrible things to be right and just?

Like the closing of the school of Athens, The medieval inquisition, the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the witch hunts, persecution of scientists... philosophers.... basically anyone who criticized or disagreed with the established rules?



On belief in GOD
3) Not believing in God damns me to hell. Believing in him saves me to heaven.
How do you not see the hypocrisy there?

What if i grew up where Christianity didn't exist?
What if i were molested by a priest?
Why would god create something only to worship him?




"Seeking Heaven through righteousness is not seeking righteousness, but something else;--it is not loving goodness for goodness' sake, but for its rewards."

It's such a shallow form of morality it's laughable. Entirely self serving like the premise it is built on.

In your last bit of dribble you say I'm already saved... then tell me prayer allows me to be saved?

well which one is it?

Also i don't think you understand what selfish means by your analysis.
Why it hard to understand that a god that creates everything than asks for worship is being selfish.

I do not expect everyone i meet to like or trust me. If i want these things from them i have to earn it.

I did ask to be created, i have had no say in the circumstances of it. Why should i be thankful to God for it?

[KnowLedge]

@Mister Sandman

You say god is your friend and so the relationship is impotent as your relationship with your friend. But you see, god is no ordinary being is he? He is a super powerful being who made us. I be nice to my friends to get them to do stuff for me, does that mean that i need to do nice things for god to get him to do things for me? what different is there intellectually between my ordinary human friend and god?

you keep mentioning god as if he was 'my friend' but you see, if god's mind worked like my friends mind did, then the world would be alot different, do you understand what im saying? God's thinking must be different then "my friend's" otherwise there would be no difference between a god and my human friend.


just a little aside --> also mate, let me correct you by saying that in Hinduism, Deeds matter a lot. and even if you dont follow the religion, the deeds still count


now back to your post

you say that"If you do not believe in him, it is impossible to please God. Follow the logic?" and that "we live to please God" in point one. This is exactly what IMO is very selfish of god. This LAW that I MADE YOU SO YOU MUST WORSHIP ME. This makes him no different then a man.

in point 3 you say that to live is to please god. to meet his highest happiness. Why is this necessiry? all the other points after this just state that "you must please god for it is ur duty"


When you say "you are already saved by god", what actually are you talking about? and also "The thing is, without God you arnt really 'alive'." explain taht one too..



I think mine and thriller's questions may be partially answered if you can explain us what you are talking about when you say that "you are already saved by god", are you saying that bringing us into existence is saving us? if so, then we did not ask for it did we? like Thriller mentioned.. then if we didn't ask to be saved, then why must we prey for such event that we may not have asked for. OR better yet, if god is not self centered, then why does he require us to say "thank you"?

[Mister Sandman]

Christian world view.

1) GOD created everything
2) GOD made rules that we must follow
3) following these rules is the only way to achieve internal happiness.

Right sandy?

As with world views go, they are all subjective, wether you be Christian or not, everyone has a different world view.

Summing up what you think the "Christian" world view fully shows how ignorant you are.

Okay so i need some straightforward answeres to these questions

On the existence of Evil
1) “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

To answer this, would take months, of soul searching and reading the bible.

To put it bluntly, if you have not read the Bible.
1. Satan or Lucifer rebelled against God. Thus, sent down to hell.
2. In the garden of eden there was a free which God forbade man to eat of, i.e the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
3. Man ate of that tree, by being tempted by satan. Note: God made man, with free will.

Hence answering: Then whence cometh evil?

On the conscience
2) Please explain to me why Christians sought to persecute and commit atrocities in the name of GOD, believing these terrible things to be right and just?

Like the closing of the school of Athens, The medieval inquisition, the crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the witch hunts, persecution of scientists... philosophers.... basically anyone who criticized or disagreed with the established rules?

You answered, and it was answered in the previous segment.

What are Christians? Well merely men and woman who follow the christian faith.

Are we perfect? No.

Does that answer your question? It should. Humanity has its tendency to enact evil.

I can quote cases the same with atheism, or any other religion in fact.

On belief in GOD
3) Not believing in God damns me to hell. Believing in him saves me to heaven.
How do you not see the hypocrisy there?

What if i grew up where Christianity didn't exist?
What if i were molested by a priest?
Why would god create something only to worship him?

The thing is not just the belief in God saves them.

There is a thing called grace. What of all the children who died during child birth?
I wont pretend to know Gods will and judgements. What if you grew up where Christianity didnt exist? I do not know, however you do, and the point of the matter it is you that has to enact on it.

What if you were molested by a priest? So what? Priests are human. It is saying what if i were molested by the man down the road. There is no difference.

Your last question is wrong. We are here not only just worship him.

"Seeking Heaven through righteousness is not seeking righteousness, but something else;--it is not loving goodness for goodness' sake, but for its rewards."

It's such a shallow form of morality it's laughable. Entirely self serving like the premise it is built on.

And where was quoted posted?

In your last bit of dribble you say I'm already saved... then tell me prayer allows me to be saved?

well which one is it?

Both.

You see its like this. I allow you to have this chocolate bar. This is yours. But, you have to collect it. Its still there, waiting for you. But you havent 'collected' it.

Also i don't think you understand what selfish means by your analysis.
Why it hard to understand that a god that creates everything than asks for worship is being selfish.

Besides the fact he deserves worship.
Prove bold.

I did ask to be created, i have had no say in the circumstances of it. Why should i be thankful to God for it?

You have no say, because if you weren't created you wouldnt even have a voice.

And that is something I think is worth being thankful for.


Overall;

The choice is --stay in your sin, and choose to go to hell (because that is where everyone is heading without Jesus) , or come to Jesus and have eternal life. He's trying to save you from hell, not send you there.
"I did not come into the world to condemn it, but to SAVE it."

@knowledge ill get to you soon,

[Thriller]

you're just a troll right?

Who created the Devil?
Who created Adam and Eve?
You don't think god is responsible for evil if he created a world where it is aloud to exist?
Thoses christians who commited those terrible acts were following there consicence that was given to them by GOD acording to you
That quote was from an author............

I'm ignorant?, i'll take that as a compliment coming from you

You obviously have no idea what your talking about, you contradict yourself so much it makes any discussion impossible. I think i'll go back to smart asoness and leave the ""seriouse" discussion to others.