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Kit-Fox wrote:

Dr. House wrote:I actually agree with Psyko, Thriller and the others.

Miranda warnings aren't to protect you from your own ignorance, but rather to protect you from corrupt cops, of which there are far too many.

Wow, me & Jack on the same side of the debate, this has got to be a first!

Ok, who are you & what have you done with the real Jack?

That's kind of where I am at.

Dr. House wrote:

Psyko wrote: Jack!

What?

Ashu wrote:

Kit-Fox wrote:So let me ask you guys, wont dont any of you live in say China/Iran/UAE/Russia/Egypt/Cuba Or take your pick of countries that have no protections of a persons rights?? Why do you choose to live in 'free' countries??

Russia is actually quite forthcoming in the field of a fair police. Most cases i've seen/heard of/ and so on result in police detaining the "bad guy" with force ONLY IF NEEDED. I'd rather live in Russia then in any other country tbh.

Spoken like a true Russian~

Russia is part of the European Court of Human Rights/Europan convention of human rights and Council of Europe, so... US state department wont ever state this in their yearly HR reports, but RF is kinda more progressive in that respect compared to the US, with acutal international chanells opened to their citizens, and rights provided and expanded by paneuropean conventions. that 300 years old constitution really aint "all that" anymore lol...

The whole "go live in the no protection in XYZ" is a bit of a silly blanket statement tbh. You`re not the only lot with a legal system you know. Yes even China has one and no its not just regulations about the type of ammunition the gvmt. will use to shoot people with lol.

Russia is making leaps & bounds in protections for people, but they still have a long way to go & they still turn a blind eye to quite serious abuses against people by state forces.

So yeah, they still get mentioned.

As for china, seriously go live there. Its a mess & its legal system certianly doesnt give its citizens any protections. This is the country that doesnt even let defendants know what the charges are against them or what evidence there is.

Kit-Fox wrote:Russia is making leaps & bounds in protections for people, but they still have a long way to go & they still turn a blind eye to quite serious abuses against people by state forces.

So yeah, they still get mentioned.

Nothing that doesnt go on in LA lol.

Again, its just this preconcieved notion that everything in the western hemispehere trounces that more east by a nautical mile. Its not necesarily allways the case. Hollywood may peddle one thing but in reality the russian who got smacked by the police can take things to Strasbourg. The african americans get to start race riots once every so often heh.

Kit-Fox wrote:As for china, seriously go live there. Its a mess & its legal system certianly doesnt give its citizens any protections. This is the country that doesnt even let defendants know what the charges are against them or what evidence there is.

Its all a matter of POV really. They have a system. Is it more heavyhanded and strict? Sure. Then again, most folks over here think that of the US system.
One has to understand that while the chinese are taking on continental europe law influences they`re still a nation with a different set of values and priorities that they`ve gained through the millenia. A strong state and central peace keeping authority is a very positive virtue there for instance. Thats why chineese cinema that often centers around the imeprial unification processes is often met with raised eyebrows as "commie brainwashing" over here heh. When its basically their version of the independance war or the french revolution.
Their legal tradition by extension also has many legalist and confucian influences that seem strange to us, mixed up with some of our stuff.

But you cant exactly call it "no protection whatsoever" and think of it as some holywood dystopia heh. Cold war is over, lets put the propaganda leaflets down heh.

Sorry no, you cant use cultural differences as an excuse, especially for the chinese system. Its retarded plain & simple.

How can a justice system work and be balenced if the defendant & their legal team are denied access to all the evidence & arent even allowed to know what the charges are until they are read out in court.

That is not justice, whatever country you come from & it certianly isnt a system that has protections for a citizen against the state. There isnt even a consideration towards it never mind a balence

You`re devolving into subjective qualifications and insults.

Lots of things are "retarded" for a lot of people. A lot of people think that a jury system is retarded. Not even all traditional civil law countires have the "trial by ambush" thing and full beforehand disclosure cos they have hearings set up differently. Its extremely hard to pass judgment on these things without knowing a legal system in detail. Which none of us really do for China, do we?

I`m not saying its on a scandinavian or even a decend european/western level, I`m saying that passing it off as complete Libria (+5 internets to whoever gets the reference) is a bit rich. They made human rights ammendments to their constitution just a few years ago with being influenced by germany for decades before that. And no socialist or communist consitution I ever had in my hand (about 4-5) skipmed over human rights completley. Heck the main premmise of them is to expand on the so called economic and social human rights. They tend to sacrifice the political ones true, but one cant make broad generalizations when talking about these systems just cos one has been forcefed the "liberty v tyrany" line for 50 odd years.


You have to face facts that our (sometimes not even that) notions of "justice" and "due process" are not universal. You cant superimpose them on the world, sorry. Not in this economic climate, not anymore lol.

And ofc. there is a cultural difference, china has a billion and a half people, and an active standing army of what, 2.5mil? Not even that much more than the US. Dont you think they would overthrow the regieme if they universaly percieved the system exactly like we here do lol?

I guess brvdas is Russian

which explains all the hubris.

But your "there are really not all that different" line of thinking isn't going to fly.

Unless you want to get in to the difference between

due process and detainment
presumption of innocence and inquisition
Jury of your peers and panel of discussion

Oh and how many cases have been taken to Strasbourg for a fair revaluation?

Having a constitution is great, but choosing only to apply it when it is convenient is self defeating.

edit:
Do you mean libria from Equilibrium??? that place wasn't that bad, they did kunfu with guns!!!!

Thriller wrote:I guess brvdas is Russian

which explains all the hubris.

But your "there are really not all that different" line of thinking isn't going to fly.

Unless you want to get in to the difference between

due process and detainment
presumption of innocence and inquisition
Jury of your peers and panel of discussion

Oh and how many cases have been taken to Strasbourg for a fair revaluation?

Having a constitution is great, but choosing only to apply it when it is convenient is self defeating.

edit:
Do you mean libria from Equilibrium??? that place wasn't that bad, they did kunfu with guns!!!!

No brdavs isnt russian. Brdavs actually has a legal education thoe. Brdavs isnt into denoucing other legal traditions and countries based just on them not being american. That whole "we are the oh so blessed beacon of whatever while everyone else are utter barbarians" stuff went out in 1945. I know it sux to have a bubble burst but the world really isnt as one dimensional as some of you apparently picture it.

Russia cant pick and choose when it allows for ECHR, thats the whole point. Induviduals can and do go appeal there by their own right. The most complaints lodged with the court are agains Russia infact. That shows the country isnt exactly peachy when it comes to HR, nobody ever said it was, but at the very least it wilingy subjugates itself to independant outside control and rulings, which is by no means a small thing for a country, whichever way you look at it. If it was, US would cooperate with the ICC, wouldnt it lol.

And +5 internets.

I can write a wonderful outline of the rights of people in country x that would make the founding fathers jealouse.

But if it's not put into practise and politically corrupted than it's useless.

I'm sure if you are legally educated you are aware of the realities of what passes for justicee over there.

Look at what happend to the czars after Putin took over.
Look how expediantly they deal justice to anyone even accused of dealing in drugs.
Look how they turn a blind eye to the subjucation of minority groups.
Look at the amount of corruption of their law enforcecment.

The law is only applied when convinient and often politically abused over there.

You can read about this here; http://www.springerlink.com/content/0885-7466/
It's getting better but i'm not comparing apples to oranges here. I'm camparing legal system whos merits can be judged against one another based on a set of criteria; Liberty, equality, objectivity, Due process,...

It's a false dichotomy to suggest they can't.