No EU referendum for the brits!

[Brdavs]

A - Careful what you wirte, making definate statements about someone could be considered slander and get you and this forum into trouble

B - without the EU, the UK public would be more than capable of telling UK.gov where to get off when it comes to things like cradle > grave monitoring. You should know that the country that has the most movements against such monitoring withn the EU is the UK. Hmmmm tells you something there dont you think?

C - Again we'd just go back to the commonwealth who would love to stick the knife into the EU for those nasty lil treaty agreements limiting UK trade with commonwealth members.

D - EU without the UK would fail rapidly, you underestimate just how much money we put into the EU through various means, How much political clout we bring to the EU & How much finacial trade you would lose.


I could of course go on, but meh i'm getting the feeling that no matter how simply it's explained to you, you just wont grasp the ideas several of us are trying to say.

A - aw someone can dish it out but can't take it I see

B - mhm sure. Look man, if the UK government was doing these things because of the EU it wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb when it comes to the question of constant infringement of civil liberties and big brother shenanigans. Obviously the UK public protests the most, that's kinda a given since the UK government takes the most liberties this side of the Russian border. Wth would the germans march, their government made google take streetview offline LOL. Hows them cctv things treating you btw? I rest my friggin case.

C - Be realistic, just a wee bit. The western world in its entirety is still *the* market. With all due respect to the nations of the commonwealth, but there is no way whatsoever they'd be able to mitigate for the "loss" of unhindered access to the half of the worlds market with the highest PPP. That's just the reality of the situation. One all your politicians recognise.

D - Oh do get off your high horse lol. You're about one war away from PIGS status love. And Euronext is bigger than London =P. Lost political clout? Seriously? The UK is like the US trojan horse of the EU. When UK finally leaves then the EU will be able to get a common foreign and defense policy together.
Which Europe will need if it wants to be a worthwhile political factor in the multi-polar world that's forming. No European nation will be able to individually compete with the rising powers of Asia and SA. That is a sad reality of life to come. And riding the 51st coattails will only take one so far since uncle Sam is in worse financial shape than Greece.

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[Brdavs]

The pot calling the kettle black tbh.

I could just as easily say this is just you guys refusing to come to grips with realities of the current and coming world, with your minds made up about matters discussed etc. etc.

I mean do carry on protesting against the few %s of sovereignty being given up to follow some EU market and human rights rules... All the while your preferred domestic gvmt uses the remaining 98% to basically roflstomp over you.


You guys dont really see it yourselves, but living in a country that was part of the YUG (is now a stable part of the euro zone and paying more into the EU budget than it gets out btw, so it's not because we're leaching off the awesome UK that I'm saying what I'm saying) I can tell you there are some hilarious similarities between the way things work in the UK today and the way they used to work over here. Classic external enemy misdirection techniques. The more things go to heck the more you blame ze germans/arabs for everything.
Repeat it enough times and the majority of the population will infact fear an Austrian invasion more than they will hate the domestic situation (no joke, that used to go on).

You islanders and your antiquated latent fear of the 2nd william the conqueror. It's quite humorous. But no, the continentals arent out to conquer you nowadays. Too much rain and the atlantic is too cold to dip your legs into.

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[Brdavs]

Its not slander, its sarcasm. You just didn´t get it. =P

[[KMA]Avenger]

One of the first justifications that pops used in defence of the EU in my very first EU thread was to bring country's closer via trade agreements to help maintain peace amongst us Europeans....anyone noticed lately that old grudges are once again coming to the front as the whole rotten structure is collapsing?

The ideology of a untied Europe dates back hundreds if not thousands of years. many have tried by force, and now they have tried via trade agreements to morph it into a superstate, it wont work. mark my words, the EU is doomed to failure, the only ones who are blind to all of this are you young brainwashed lefty-liberals.
The question we should all be asking is this "how bad will it be when it comes down?!".


Ps, for those of you-no mentioning names- *cough* Brvdus *cough* who lived under the soviet communist system should by all rights-recognise a dictatorship when you see one. those others whom i won't mention *cough* Jim *cough* who had their nation invaded and conquered and who lost their freedoms, you would expect such a nation to treat ANY unelected foreign body trying to dictate to you what you can and cannot do, and what type of money is in your nation-with FAAAAR more scepticism, disdain and out right mistrust than you do!

If i could physically pick up that rat infested building and move it from Brussels to Moscow-you would have no problem calling it a communist institution, but when you remove the secret police and the gulags and you replace that with suffocating regulations (which have only helped to decimate business and competition), taxes upon taxes and you replace the commissars with bureaucrats...well that's freedom and good for trade and good for Europe.

Did you guys know that a law exists that says you cannot criticise the EU?

Under the 1999 ruling of the European Court Of Justice (case 274/99), it is illegal to criticize the EU...


Smells like dictatorship/communism to me!

[MEZZANINE]

@ Brdavs

You think the EU is saving the UK from becoming a police state ??? Errm have you seen the riots in the UK ? When we dont like something, we let our politicians know about it, we dont need some over paid unelected euro-bureaucrat to do it for us. In fact the only thing we Brits hate worse than our own government telling us what to do, is foreigners telling us what to do lol

As for the trade question, we have had free trade for decades, there were some agreements needed to make that happen but no where near the amounts of regulation and laws we have now and certainly not a full integration pro-EU people want, and the agreements needed for free trade can easily be negotiated in an EEC forum, they dont need the huge socialist superstate EU machine.



Basically comes down to this.

If the EU is so great, why doesnt the EU insist that all member countries have referendums and make a coherent factual arguments in public debates to convince the people that the benefits outweigh the costs ??????

Answer is easy, they cant. Some countries gain from it, some lose out, and the ones that lose out the most are the ones it needs, the richer ones.

The EU is an ideological dream, and history should have taught us by now how dangerous and costly those can be.

[Legendary Apophis]

One of the first justifications that pops used in defence of the EU in my very first EU thread was to bring country's closer via trade agreements to help maintain peace amongst us Europeans....anyone noticed lately that old grudges are once again coming to the front as the whole rotten structure is collapsing?

The ideology of a untied Europe dates back hundreds if not thousands of years. many have tried by force, and now they have tried via trade agreements to morph it into a superstate, it wont work. mark my words, the EU is doomed to failure, the only ones who are blind to all of this are you young brainwashed lefty-liberals.
The question we should all be asking is this "how bad will it be when it comes down?!".

Sorry to tell you, but it's not only "brainwashed lefty-liberals" who are in favor of EU. I, am not left wing anymore since I turned 18.
It's obvious propaganda to try to limit the amount of people in favor of EU.

Ps, for those of you-no mentioning names- *cough* Brvdus *cough* who lived under the soviet communist system should by all rights-recognise a dictatorship when you see one. those others whom i won't mention *cough* Jim *cough* who had their nation invaded and conquered and who lost their freedoms, you would expect such a nation to treat ANY unelected foreign body trying to dictate to you what you can and cannot do, and what type of money is in your nation-with FAAAAR more scepticism, disdain and out right mistrust than you do!

I am a student of history, I know pretty well how it went during the occupation, I also know pretty well how that moment of history is overly used by some politicians to scream nonsense (and they seem to know little about this era) and considering this, it *really* annoys me when people overly use the late 1930s-early 1940s for arguing against everything and its contrary. Because, in fact, the majority of the "it reminds us about the late 1930s-early 1940s and fascism/nazism/collaborationism" are wrong and inaccurate.

Did you guys know that a law exists that says you cannot criticise the EU?

Under the 1999 ruling of the European Court Of Justice (case 274/99), it is illegal to criticize the EU...


Smells like dictatorship/communism to me!

I don't think this law is really applied... Not that it would be only one law that isn't applied for obvious reasons...
*sigh*

@ Brdavs

You think the EU is saving the UK from becoming a police state ??? Errm have you seen the riots in the UK ? When we dont like something, we let our politicians know about it, we dont need some over paid unelected euro-bureaucrat to do it for us. In fact the only thing we Brits hate worse than our own government telling us what to do, is foreigners telling us what to do lol

I cannot believe there are people who believe the UK riots were done for political motives. It was thug motivated and mostly people who wanted to rob for free. The starting excuse was the usual "poor drug dealer got shot by an evil policeman" and then the thugs took it as opportunity to riot as it's only thing they know doing.

Basically comes down to this.

If the EU is so great, why doesnt the EU insist that all member countries have referendums and make a coherent factual arguments in public debates to convince the people that the benefits outweigh the costs ??????

Answer is easy, they cant. Some countries gain from it, some lose out, and the ones that lose out the most are the ones it needs, the richer ones.

The EU is an ideological dream, and history should have taught us by now how dangerous and costly those can be.

France doesn't lose by being in the EU, and Germany sacrified the Mark yes, but the EU is rather succesful tradewise for them, and it's not like going off EU is really popular in the German elites (remember how the former CEO something from Germany who suggested it was heavily criticized in Germany). Of course it's tempting to go like "who the hell cares about the neighboors, the only thing that matters is our nation.", but I guess I'm not enough of a nationalist to think like this.

[MEZZANINE]

@ LA,

There have been several UK riots in the last few years, many over the decades, hundreds of protests, marches and civil disobedience's. Some had specific purposes, others are more general, and a few get taken over by criminal elements. The point is the people of the UK are quite capable of showing our displeasure with acts of government/local authorities, and when enough of us feel strongly enough about something we even get it changed ( thinks of poll tax ). We dont need the EU to protect us and decide what is good or bad for us.

EU means looking out for your neighbours ???? Just lol, this is exactly the kind of dreaming I was talking about, the utopian ideal.........and pure fiction. You try holding a referendum debate arguing the position of ''Yes you will all pay for it in taxes and have your sovereign right removed, but at least you will help your neighbours'' and see how many votes you get

[Legendary Apophis]

@ LA,

EU means looking out for your neighbours ???? Just lol, this is exactly the kind of dreaming I was talking about, the utopian ideal.........and pure fiction. You try holding a referendum debate arguing the position of ''Yes you will all pay for it in taxes and have your sovereign right removed, but at least you will help your neighbours'' and see how many votes you get

I'm sure you know as much as I do, that you can get pretty different results depending on how you word your question (if you try as you did to get a negative answer).
There are parties who think like you more or less, one example comes to my mind, the party called the National Front in France (EU are the evil totalitarian super machine of bureaucracy who only wants to enslave the Europeans into a new version of dictatorial USSR, and 'their' Euro, is an absolute cause of troubles), as well as BNP does in the UK if not mistaken "EU is the enemy and the cause of all our problems, if it wasn't here, it would only be better as EU is only negative while being outside of EU is only advantages". Demagogy.

[MEZZANINE]

@ LA,

EU means looking out for your neighbours ???? Just lol, this is exactly the kind of dreaming I was talking about, the utopian ideal.........and pure fiction. You try holding a referendum debate arguing the position of ''Yes you will all pay for it in taxes and have your sovereign right removed, but at least you will help your neighbours'' and see how many votes you get

I'm sure you know as much as I do, that you can get pretty different results depending on how you word your question (if you try as you did to get a negative answer).
But don't worry, the far right parties in France hold more or less the same speech that you do (EU are the evil totalitarian super machine of bureaucracy who only wants to enslave the Europeans into a new version of dictatorial USSR), as well as BNP does in the UK if not mistaken "EU is the enemy and the cause of all our problems, if it wasn't here, it would only be better as EU is only negative while being outside of EU is only advantages".

And there it is, the 'If you dont want this socialist ideal you must be a far right or a racist' argument, the last desperate resort of the pro-EU lobby.

Except it's not true, I have never been a member of any political party, never voted UKIP or BNP. I actually agree with many Liberal Democrat polices like voting reform, higher tax exemptions for lower earners etc and I am like the majority of the UK regardless of who they vote for in internal UK elections, Anti-EU

[Legendary Apophis]

@ LA,

EU means looking out for your neighbours ???? Just lol, this is exactly the kind of dreaming I was talking about, the utopian ideal.........and pure fiction. You try holding a referendum debate arguing the position of ''Yes you will all pay for it in taxes and have your sovereign right removed, but at least you will help your neighbours'' and see how many votes you get

I'm sure you know as much as I do, that you can get pretty different results depending on how you word your question (if you try as you did to get a negative answer).
But don't worry, the far right parties in France hold more or less the same speech that you do (EU are the evil totalitarian super machine of bureaucracy who only wants to enslave the Europeans into a new version of dictatorial USSR), as well as BNP does in the UK if not mistaken "EU is the enemy and the cause of all our problems, if it wasn't here, it would only be better as EU is only negative while being outside of EU is only advantages".

And there it is, the 'If you dont want this socialist ideal you must be a far right or a racist' argument, the last desperate resort of the pro-EU lobby.

Except it's not true, I have never been a member of any political party, never voted UKIP or BNP. I actually agree with many Liberal Democrat polices like voting reform, higher tax exemptions for lower earners etc and I am like the majority of the UK regardless of who they vote for in internal UK elections, Anti-EU

Where did I mention racism lol? It is fact that far right parties on both sides of the Eurotunnel are the main supporters of exiting the EU. Now if they are racist, it's another issue. As for "socialism", oh thanks for proving my point, "EU is the new USSR" speech is now here! *chuckles*
"last desperate resort" Funny.
Now, you deny the "champion" of anti-EU program in the UK are the BNP (even if there's UKIP, the BNP is the most vocal of both)? In France, it's a "far right" party who are the champions of anti EU stance. It's not my fault if it's like this. Of course I could lie and say most parties are against EU, but it wouldn't be fair to lie, isn't it?

It doesn't require you to be a member of a party to feel close to them, I'm not a member of any party yet myself either...
If the majority of UK are anti EU, why aren't they in majority voting for either UKIP or BNP? That would be the correct move, if the majority was indeed anti EU, to avoid parties like Lib Dems or Labour pro EU parties.

[[KMA]Avenger]

For the EU sceptics, this film is a MUST see. for the pro-EU mob, again this film is a MUST see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR83juHjCuo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUFvx4kH ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVEwUxu9 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfE85JCq ... re=related


The film i believe is made by UKIP, but let me correct some of you, UKIP unlike the BNP and others is NOT an extremist or racist party.
Please guys, do some homework before you say UKIP in the same breath as the BNP.

Watch the film and learn something!

Edit: the film was NOT made by UKIP, it was made by a group who are non-party political and independent.

[Legendary Apophis]

For the EU sceptics, this film is a MUST see. for the pro-EU mob, again this film is a MUST see:

"Love" the fact that "pro EU" are a "mob" and not the EU sceptics. Talk about total subjectivity!

I'll have a look at these, but well, it's not like I've seen "anti something" movies/documentaries in the past, just that those clarified for me the ideas from the other side, to have a more proper counter arguments set.

[Brdavs]

Avenger do yourself a favor and look up Yugoslavia and the non aligned movement. Bunching us up with soviet communism just highlights that your basic understanding of these matters/the world doesn't go beyond the 70s cartoons americans fed to their kids. And then its others who are brainwashed LOL.


Bottom line lads, and I'm gonna say this as politely as I can, but you guys don't have a flipping clue what you're talking about.

I say this as someone who actually studied the common market for 3 years as part of my uni degree and knows what it actually takes to create and make it work and as someone who still remembers the time when he lived in an actual single party state.

You don't. Seriously.

You wouldn't know tiranny if it bit you in the tooshie because you're so fixated to look for it abroad that you don't even notice that it's the guys that are pointing fingers at the "external threats to your sovereignty" that are the ones primarily eroding your liberties. But no, somehow its the common accounting and industrial standards ECHR that are choking away the freedom.

And it takes a heck of a lot of work and coordination to maintain an open, free and most of all fair common market. Look these terms and what they represent up in a book or something. It just doesnt happen cos one of you lads declared that it's easy to have this thing called "free trade" lol.
And I just loled when a guy brought up the Connolly case and started to talk about communism. you guys are grasping now.
The guy was disciplined and terminated from his position as a functionary in the organization he attacked. (Using a UK ruling as a legal precedent/basis to boot. Oh teh ironeh lol.) Really shocking no? Try publically badmouthing your employer and then shout dictatorship when he sanctions you and see where that gets you. LOL.

It's all just the usual gibberish fear about some great great evil of nwo/superstate and tin foil hat nonsense. Coupled with "I'm sure it could work like this/without that, and I base that off of my own infallible opinion. I don't have the facts to back this up but the Roman Empire is rising again and they're stockpiling bodybags in Frankfurt."
The fact you're from UK, a union of nations in itself, that works (more or less) just fine, is double the irony.


Seriously, it's not even funny no more, it's sad. The 19th century is over lads. And youtube nutjobs are not a credible source.