10 Reasons The World Thinks The US Is Crazy Re: Abortion

[ramen07]

On rape:

http://abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

Sure, enact a specific law to protect rape victims and medical cases. Otherwise, the point is moot.

[deni]

On rape:

http://abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

Sure, enact a specific law to protect rape victims and medical cases. Otherwise, the point is moot.

If you want to win an argument by using a statistic, you should choose one coming from a neutral party


I can only stress it again, if a woman does not want a child, she will find ways to abort - be they official / legal or not.

I do not understand, how forcing a woman to become an unwanted child (for whatever reasons) is expected to have no effect on her mental health or the environment in which the child will be born.


Out of curiosity: Is the 'morning after' pill legal in the US?

[Jack]

[Yet, if a woman did not want to carry a child to term, there are numerous ways how to trigger a miscarriage - be it through herbs or the like. Women have done that all through human history and will continue to do so, if their right to abortion is denied, no matter the health risk involved in that. The notion, that no abortions take place (as in willingly triggered misscarriages) if abortions are illegal, is ludicrous.

No one is claiming that abortions will cease to happen if abortions are made illegal.

I find it always amusing, how people (mostly men) think of an abortion in the same terms as going to the dentist. You get in, get it done, go out and do not shed a thought about it. This is not the case - deciding in favour of an abortion is a very though decision and has emotional/psycological consequences that are severe. It is nothing done lightly, nor is it an alternative to using contraception as implied by the pro-life fraction - " I forgot to take the pill, oh well, if I the **Filtered** hits the fan I will just have an abortion" is definitely not what happens.

I've known women that see it as a trip to the dentist. I've also known women that have been absolutely devastated by it. But it doesn't really matter. The argument isn't that abortion should be illegal because women see it as a trip to the dentist, the argument is that abortion should be illegal because it is murder.

Human females, unlike other mammals, show no outward signs when they are fertile.

Not exactly true. But that's besides the point.

I can only stress it again, if a woman does not want a child, she will find ways to abort - be they official / legal or not.

Not a good argument for supporting abortion. The same argument can be applied to anything illegal.

I do not understand, how forcing a woman to become an unwanted child (for whatever reasons) is expected to have no effect on her mental health or the environment in which the child will be born.

That is the concern of the woman, not those opposed to abortion. If she doesn't want to get pregnant, then she should take measures to prevent such. I know, it's a horrible thing to expect women to take responsibility for their actions. Woe is the woman.

Out of curiosity: Is the 'morning after' pill legal in the US?

Yes, and I see no reason it should not be.

[Ashu]

Abortion is an abomination. It's the most devious and disgusting murder i can think of and in no way do i support it.

If a woman has sexual contact with a man, or viceversa, they should bear the fruit and responsability for such an act. Period. If you don't want children or if you wish to avoid having children don't have sex. Does this seem too much in a society where we call our will freedom and the ability to bash other people our rights? Yes. But that does not justify anything. Life is sacred from the moment of it's inception which is the moment she finds out she's pregnant. That 3 months mumbo jumbo is just another way to justify killing a helpless, defenceless human being.

You say it's her body, i say it's her responsability which she knew from the beginning. Once you have sex there is the risk that you get pregnant, you are fully aware of such a risk. Being aware of the risk, doing said act knowingly is accepting whatever consequences may come. The inconveniance of you caring the child a few months does not give you the right to kill it. It did not spontaniously come into you, it came from an act which you agreed to and again, were fully aware of the consequences. If you do not wish to keep it, then i'm sure there are many people that will do almost anything to have one.

Further into the pithole. What if a woman gets raped? If a woman gets raped and somehow is pregnant after, then she should have the child and give it away. Why? Because again, life is scared AND IN NO WAY IS THE CHILD THE RAPIST. THE CHILD IS AN INNOCENT HUMAN BEING THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS DEVIANT FATHER. What fault the the child have for being the fruit of such an act? Why punish him? Why not give him a chance to grow up and live his life?

[deni]

[Yet, if a woman did not want to carry a child to term, there are numerous ways how to trigger a miscarriage - be it through herbs or the like. Women have done that all through human history and will continue to do so, if their right to abortion is denied, no matter the health risk involved in that. The notion, that no abortions take place (as in willingly triggered misscarriages) if abortions are illegal, is ludicrous.

No one is claiming that abortions will cease to happen if abortions are made illegal.

So the only thing the ban on abortions will achieve will not be the woman carrying an unwanted child to term, but forcing the woman to find another means to trigger an abortion. Welcome to the middle ages.

I find it always amusing, how people (mostly men) think of an abortion in the same terms as going to the dentist. You get in, get it done, go out and do not shed a thought about it. This is not the case - deciding in favour of an abortion is a very though decision and has emotional/psycological consequences that are severe. It is nothing done lightly, nor is it an alternative to using contraception as implied by the pro-life fraction - " I forgot to take the pill, oh well, if I the **Filtered** hits the fan I will just have an abortion" is definitely not what happens.

I've known women that see it as a trip to the dentist. I've also known women that have been absolutely devastated by it. But it doesn't really matter. The argument isn't that abortion should be illegal because women see it as a trip to the dentist, the argument is that abortion should be illegal because it is murder.

More than a 1/3 of the pregnancies end up in an abortion. With an statistical average of 2 (wanted or unwanted) abortions per woman, it makes statistically every fertile woman on the planet at least a double murderer.

Further, if your grandpa smoked for 80 years and lived beyond the age of 100, does not mean smoking does not harm your health. Same with women who consider an abortion same as a dentist visit.

Human females, unlike other mammals, show no outward signs when they are fertile.

Not exactly true. But that's besides the point.

Really? I guess every female reading this forum would be thrilled to know what outward signs there are in the time of the month they are fertile besides an increased LH level and an ultrasound of her ovaries.

I can only stress it again, if a woman does not want a child, she will find ways to abort - be they official / legal or not.

Not a good argument for supporting abortion. The same argument can be applied to anything illegal.

Yet there is a difference - the medical abortions done in a control setting is the safest way to end a pregnancy. Usually without long term physical side-effects and without ill effects on their fertility.

I do not understand, how forcing a woman to become an unwanted child (for whatever reasons) is expected to have no effect on her mental health or the environment in which the child will be born.

That is the concern of the woman, not those opposed to abortion. If she doesn't want to get pregnant, then she should take measures to prevent such. I know, it's a horrible thing to expect women to take responsibility for their actions. Woe is the woman.

I say it again: the are only 2 ways to prevent a unwanted pregnancy are:

1. no sex
2. removal of the ovaries (goes with ill side affects)

One can minimize the chance the get pregnant, yet no contraception method does always prevent an unwanted pregnancy nor can every contraception be used by everyone.

Out of curiosity: Is the 'morning after' pill legal in the US?

Yes, and I see no reason it should not be.

That's an interesting point of view. Having an abortion triggered by a pill in the first days of a pregnancy (yes, the morning after pill does not work only the morning after) is perfectly fine with you yet an abortion done by other means a few weeks later is not.



On a side note: Why is it only the male forum users who think it is perfectly fine to force women to carry an unwanted child to term?

[MEZZANINE]

@ Deni, the morning after pill is NOT the same as abortion

1) You dont know the woman was or would get pregnant

2) Conception doesnt necessarily happen on the night of sex, it can happen in few days following sex

3) Even if the woman had conceived at that early stage it is nothing more than a small group of dividing cells with no form and no guaranteed viability.

I have been told however that the morning after pill can be very unpleasant, its basically an 'after the fact' precaution.



As for why more men are posting here, well you are an admin here, look at the forum stats, how many men and how many women are registered & active ? This game and forum are overwhelming male with very few women, I wish that weren't true but sadly it is. I guess if there was a 'Sex in the City Wars' game that would be mostly female lol

As for why men are often against abortion, I dont think all are, many want to be let off the responsibility of their actions, especially the younger ones.

[deni]

@ Deni, the morning after pill is NOT the same as abortion


1) You dont know the woman was or would get pregnant

What makes it different than an abortion, if the woman was pregnant?

Chlormadione pills can trigger a menstruation after the the fertilized egg has nidaded. How is that different from an abortion carried out a few days/weeks later?

2) Conception doesnt necessarily happen on the night of sex, it can happen in few days following sex


To be exact: conception never happens on the night of sex. The sperm meets the egg in the fallopian tubes and it takes about a day for them to travel there. The nidation of the zygote takes place usually 7-10 days after the intercourse.



3) Even if the woman had conceived at that early stage it is nothing more than a small group of dividing cells with no form and no guaranteed viability.


Ahhh. There comes the question - when is an embryo a viable being? A weeks after nidation? 2 Weeks? 2 Months?


Generally, a human embryo is NOT considered viable as it cannot survive outside the uterus.




I have been told however that the morning after pill can be very unpleasant, its basically an 'after the fact' precaution.



As for why more men are posting here, well you are an admin here, look at the forum stats, how many men and how many women are registered & active ? This game and forum are overwhelming male with very few women, I wish that weren't true but sadly it is. I guess if there was a 'Sex in the City Wars' game that would be mostly female lol

As for why men are often against abortion, I dont think all are, many want to be let off the responsibility of their actions, especially the younger ones.



The thread is inhabited by an equal number of women/men. I also doubt, that many of the women who are 'pro-choice' would choose to have an abortion themselves. They just do not want to deny others the right to have one if they make the choice.

[Jack]

So the only thing the ban on abortions will achieve will not be the woman carrying an unwanted child to term, but forcing the woman to find another means to trigger an abortion. Welcome to the middle ages.

Really? I guess every female reading this forum would be thrilled to know what outward signs there are in the time of the month they are fertile besides an increased LH level and an ultrasound of her ovaries.

I guess then we should institute some sort of program whereby if someone wants to kill another, they can just give their name to some company that will do it for them. After all, murder is dangerous, if you try to kill someone, you could end up injured or even killed yourself. Best to let the professionals handle it.

More than a 1/3 of the pregnancies end up in an abortion. With an statistical average of 2 (wanted or unwanted) abortions per woman, it makes statistically every fertile woman on the planet at least a double murderer.

Nice attempt at twisting statistics to suit your own goals. This only shows that there are women having a lot of abortions.

Further, if your grandpa smoked for 80 years and lived beyond the age of 100, does not mean smoking does not harm your health. Same with women who consider an abortion same as a dentist visit.

Should I care? Is your argument that abortions should be legal because they can harm your psyche? Cause I gotta tell ya, that's a terrible argument.

I say it again: the are only 2 ways to prevent a unwanted pregnancy are:

1. no sex
2. removal of the ovaries (goes with ill side affects)

One can minimize the chance the get pregnant, yet no contraception method does always prevent an unwanted pregnancy nor can every contraception be used by everyone.

If it's that important to you, then don't have sex. Again, I realize this is such a horrible thing, to expect a woman to show some responsibility.

That's an interesting point of view. Having an abortion triggered by a pill in the first days of a pregnancy (yes, the morning after pill does not work only the morning after) is perfectly fine with you yet an abortion done by other means a few weeks later is not.

Because once the fetus develops a brain and exhibits brain wave activity, it is then a living person. But if you want to ban all forms of abortions at all times during pregnancy, be my guest. I wont stop you.

On a side note: Why is it only the male forum users who think it is perfectly fine to force women to carry an unwanted child to term?

Nice try, but this isn't a man vs woman issue. Furthermore, the only thing that means is that the women that visit this section support abortion and not anything else.

[deni]

So the only thing the ban on abortions will achieve will not be the woman carrying an unwanted child to term, but forcing the woman to find another means to trigger an abortion. Welcome to the middle ages.

Really? I guess every female reading this forum would be thrilled to know what outward signs there are in the time of the month they are fertile besides an increased LH level and an ultrasound of her ovaries.

I guess then we should institute some sort of program whereby if someone wants to kill another, they can just give their name to some company that will do it for them. After all, murder is dangerous, if you try to kill someone, you could end up injured or even killed yourself. Best to let the professionals handle it.

I thought we were having a discussion here. But I guess the only argument you can bring is sarcasm.

I still miss the reply to what outward signs a woman exhibits in her fertile days.

More than a 1/3 of the pregnancies end up in an abortion. With an statistical average of 2 (wanted or unwanted) abortions per woman, it makes statistically every fertile woman on the planet at least a double murderer.

Nice attempt at twisting statistics to suit your own goals. This only shows that there are women having a lot of abortions.

I do not see how I am tweisting anything. An abortion does not need to be surgical, it can happen naturally. And it does with over one third of the zygotes/embryos. Thus every fertile woman who has had unprotected sexual intercourse statiscally has two abortions - be they wanted or unwanted.

Further, if your grandpa smoked for 80 years and lived beyond the age of 100, does not mean smoking does not harm your health. Same with women who consider an abortion same as a dentist visit.

Should I care? Is your argument that abortions should be legal because they can harm your psyche? Cause I gotta tell ya, that's a terrible argument.

Still wainting for an argument, yet I see only sarcasm.

I say it again: the are only 2 ways to prevent a unwanted pregnancy are:

1. no sex
2. removal of the ovaries (goes with ill side affects)

One can minimize the chance the get pregnant, yet no contraception method does always prevent an unwanted pregnancy nor can every contraception be used by everyone.

If it's that important to you, then don't have sex. Again, I realize this is such a horrible thing, to expect a woman to show some responsibility.

I have another suggestion. Why not let the male partner show some responsibilty and have a vasectomy. Still not 100% sure but very close. Yet most men lose their libido for weeks if not months at the mere metion of the word. I wonder why.

That's an interesting point of view. Having an abortion triggered by a pill in the first days of a pregnancy (yes, the morning after pill does not work only the morning after) is perfectly fine with you yet an abortion done by other means a few weeks later is not.

Because once the fetus develops a brain and exhibits brain wave activity, it is then a living person. But if you want to ban all forms of abortions at all times during pregnancy, be my guest. I wont stop you.


I cannot but agree. Abrotions in the fetal state should take place only for medical reasons and be an exeption. This is covered by abortion laws in most countries anyways.


FYI: Brain waves (if they can be called that) in the embryonal state occur according to some christian-scientists about 6 weeks after implantation. The common scientific consensus is that brain waves (and not random electrical noise) occur in the 21th week after nidation. The neuronal cortex starts functioning in week 24-26.

Does that make abortions perfectly fine for you, if they are done within 6 weeks?

On a side note: Why is it only the male forum users who think it is perfectly fine to force women to carry an unwanted child to term?

Nice try, but this isn't a man vs woman issue. Furthermore, the only thing that means is that the women that visit this section support abortion and not anything else.

[Jack]

I thought we were having a discussion here. But I guess the only argument you can bring is sarcasm.

There is an argument there, if you wish to ignore it, that is on you.

I still miss the reply to what outward signs a woman exhibits in her fertile days.

Once again, it is immaterial to the discussion at hand. If you wish to know, look it up yourself.

I do not see how I am tweisting anything. An abortion does not need to be surgical, it can happen naturally. And it does with over one third of the zygotes/embryos. Thus every fertile woman who has had unprotected sexual intercourse statiscally has two abortions - be they wanted or unwanted.

Oh, so your argument is a red herring.

Still wainting for an argument, yet I see only sarcasm.

There was nothing sarcastic about my comment.

I have another suggestion. Why not let the male partner show some responsibilty and have a vasectomy. Still not 100% sure but very close. Yet most men lose their libido for weeks if not months at the mere metion of the word. I wonder why.

Both individuals are fully responsible for their actions. If that is a decision a couple makes, sobeit. Not really sure what your point is here.

I cannot but agree. Abrotions in the fetal state should take place only for medical reasons and be an exeption. This is covered by abortion laws in most countries anyways.


FYI: Brain waves in the embryonal state occur about 6 weeks after implantation. Does that make abortions perfectly fine for you, if they are done within 6 weeks?

Is that not what I said? I believe I have stated it atleast twice in this thread already.

If you can show me conclusive evidence of when exactly life starts, then I'd support abortion upto that point.

[deni]

I thought we were having a discussion here. But I guess the only argument you can bring is sarcasm.

There is an argument there, if you wish to ignore it, that is on you.

I still miss the reply to what outward signs a woman exhibits in her fertile days.

Once again, it is immaterial to the discussion at hand. If you wish to know, look it up yourself.

I do not see how I am tweisting anything. An abortion does not need to be surgical, it can happen naturally. And it does with over one third of the zygotes/embryos. Thus every fertile woman who has had unprotected sexual intercourse statiscally has two abortions - be they wanted or unwanted.

Oh, so your argument is a red herring.

Still wainting for an argument, yet I see only sarcasm.

There was nothing sarcastic about my comment.

I have another suggestion. Why not let the male partner show some responsibilty and have a vasectomy. Still not 100% sure but very close. Yet most men lose their libido for weeks if not months at the mere metion of the word. I wonder why.

Both individuals are fully responsible for their actions. If that is a decision a couple makes, sobeit. Not really sure what your point is here.

I cannot but agree. Abrotions in the fetal state should take place only for medical reasons and be an exeption. This is covered by abortion laws in most countries anyways.


FYI: Brain waves in the embryonal state occur about 6 weeks after implantation. Does that make abortions perfectly fine for you, if they are done within 6 weeks?

Is that not what I said? I believe I have stated it atleast twice in this thread already.

If you can show me conclusive evidence of when exactly life starts, then I'd support abortion upto that point.

I see you are neither able to back up the statements you make nor do you know what you are arguing against or for. So far, I have seen you trying to make an argument contra abortions as abortions are murder and women (but not men lol) should be responsible for their actions, yet now you post you are perfectly fine with abortions being done in the first 6 weeks of a pregnancy 'before life starts' which for you is the moment something resembeling brain waves occur.

As it is hard to argue with someone that changes their position twice in every post they make, I would refrain from replying to you until you can decide what argument you are going to make


PS: I am still waiting for an answer about the outward fertility signs women exhibit. If you tell me something is not true, I really want to hear why not


Anyways, I am not sure what criminalizing abortion is supposed to achieve. That's the main question one should be asking.

You cannot increase the birth rate by criminalizing abortion as women will continue to abort at a higher cost to society due to complications etc.

You can only increase the birth rate by providing an alternative to abortion be it by providing more affordable daycare facilities, help to single mums who have to manage both - proving for their child and making a living and so on.

[Jack]

So far, I have seen you trying to make an argument contra abortions as abortions are murder and women (but not men lol) should be responsible for their actions, yet now you post you are perfectly fine with abortions being done in the first 6 weeks of a pregnancy 'before life starts' which for you is the moment something resembeling brain waves occur.

Where did I say otherwise?

(but not men lol)

Nice try, but no.

Both individuals are fully responsible for their actions.

As it is hard to argue with someone that changes their position twice in every post they make, I would refrain from replying to you until you can decide what argument you are going to make

When exactly have I changed my position?

[deni]

So what is your position, Jack?

Is abortion murder? Is it murder only after 6 weeks? After 12 weeks? Is what you consider murder fine, if it endangers the health of the mother? Does the endangerement has to be severe and certain or only probable to justify what you see as murder? Where is the line?



And please, finally tell us about the outward signs women exhibit in their fertile days. Can surely prevent some unwanted pregnancies

[Jack]

So what is your position, Jack?

Is abortion murder? Is it murder only after 6 weeks? After 12 weeks? Is what you consider murder fine, if it endangers the health of the mother? Does the endangerement has to be severe and certain or only probable to justify what you see as murder? Where is the line?

My position has been stated throughout the thread, go back and read it for yourself.

And please, finally tell us about the outward signs women exhibit in their fertile days. Can surely prevent some unwanted pregnancies

Once again, it is immaterial to the discussion at hand. If you wish to know, look it up yourself.

[deni]

So what is your position, Jack?

Is abortion murder? Is it murder only after 6 weeks? After 12 weeks? Is what you consider murder fine, if it endangers the health of the mother? Does the endangerement has to be severe and certain or only probable to justify what you see as murder? Where is the line?

My position has been stated throughout the thread, go back and read it for yourself.

And please, finally tell us about the outward signs women exhibit in their fertile days. Can surely prevent some unwanted pregnancies

Once again, it is immaterial to the discussion at hand. If you wish to know, look it up yourself.

Your position has been confusing, so either I cannot understand it or you cannot express it. Thus I asked for clarification you refuse to give. Makes me wonder why.

If I could look up the outward signs of fertility I would have done so. Yet to my knowledge none exist. You claim otherwise, thus it would be only fair if you back your statement up. Further, as outward fertility signs can be used as an indication when not to have unprotected sex in order to prent an unwanted pregnancy, they do well relate to the discussion at hand. The only reason I see in you refusing to back up your statement, is that you are not able to do so. Please prove me wrong