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Privaten wrote:

Øsiris wrote:

Tollan Phoenix wrote:Because we are represented by our politicians and our celebrities. What impression would you have of America if you saw through such a twisted and naive windom?

It would be extremely low

I, being 15, am more knowledgable than most of our celberties and some well known politicians. I'm also not one to fall for propaganda and what people say. I was raised Liberal with next to no one Conservative in my life (except a couple of my uncles whom I only saw at "get-togethers"). I now live with my dad and mom, actually read and analyze my histroy and news for myself and not have someone do it for me. I am now Conservative because I educated myself. (this is by American standards btw, somewhere else you may be conservative and think COMPLETELY differently).

I know the feeling, being sixteen and seeing the... people who parade around my country (bit back some not nice words). However, I'm more of a moderate who leans conservative and tries to reel in those extreme liberals and conservatives in to common sense and middle ground.
Needless to say, it's hard, if not impossible. Especially if the person is your history teacher .

Privaten wrote:I now live with my dad and mom, actually read and analyze my histroy and news for myself and not have someone do it for me.

That's the key.

When I first begin to realize that history has witnessed no less than three parallels to the Cold War... it took off some of the edge off the doom-screamers.

When I noticed that Scientists have been predicting various fad-Armageddon’s for the past hundred years... I look at the Global Warming banter with more skepticism.

When I hear Lincoln getting slammed as "A Gangling, bloodthirsty Imperialist savage, from the black hills" by copperheads... I question the Bush bashers.

When I read about an island nation, devastated by an eruption, starving for food... and hear how one day they paddled out to an approaching sailing vessel and found it was a gift, laden with food and supplies from the (then new) USA, I wonder as to the claims of our greedy nature.
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Raddessy?

my history teacher for the last three years has been conservative its been amazing. I love miss Kepley shes like the raddesy government teacher in existance.

Lucky. My history teacher seemed to spend the first semester arguing over whether we should have invaded Iraq and when she did teach history, it felt like every decision I agreed with was bad.

Down with socialism....

Lol, down with capitalism and up with compromises that promote social values and economic growth

Øsiris wrote:The lack of Knowledge voiced by our worldy neighbors amazes me sometimes. Americans are often times called ignorant but I seem to know much of world events and polotics that are often poorly returned when it comes to the US.

I know that Texas is on the south, at the the west of Louisiane, not to mention Seattle is in Washington D.C. ...I HIGHLY DOUBT MANY AMERICANS can do it for france, germany, italy cities and locate them, not even mentionning that nice CNN vid where they asked where Australia was, or maybe it was Iran? dont remember which country it was about, but it was not some Zambia or Bhutan which is hardly easy to locate on the map!!! Just to mention that they didnt even know that the big island in pacific ocean was called Australia...
So before saying those who thinks americans are ignorants are more, at least we know that America is under Canada and above Mexico!!! I KNOW there are intelligent americans, alot of, but the prob IS that they are alot in absolute, but in comparaison to the global population number, in relative, not so many! I'm pretty sure the democrats have LESS ignorants in their ranks, because the bush side isnt only made of those liberal workers who travel around the world, who surely know alot, but this party is made also by alot of ignorants, and no american inhabitant can deny it!!! Who are those ignorants? Those who say Canada s... France and Mexico s..., and who dont even know where are germany or india, finally who think America is their country, and any people with KNOWLEDGE will say, and CANNOT BE DENIED, that USA are Indian's country (not those from India, I mean those who lived in before The thirteen colonies were created).

Firecracker048 wrote:

marusai wrote:

Øsiris wrote:Capatalist democracy's have made the most progress in history. Socialism Crashed and burned. Literally. Even China refers to itself a s a republic. Socialism failed and always will it defy's human nature and thus cannot prevail.

What does that have to mean?

First of all Socialism is being victorious in all over the world ,except a short step backwards in the 1990, but since then it is growing with a fast pase.

And what do you mean by republic? Socialism/Socialists are responsible for the existance of most republics. USSR was a union of 15 Republics, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Vietnam, Cuba, Angola... all of them are Republics.

So what do you want to say?

well lets here what i gotta say, ehh?
People in democracy=free
socailism/communist dictarotiships=not so free
explain? here:
They are forced to live under an iron fist and literaly have close to 0 free will. explain that

Everyone has a free will! How do you think would people of Czechoslovakia be able to demonstrate against the invasion of troops from Warsaw Pact if they had no free will?

And saying that less restrictions implies more freedom isnt that right. Imagine what the world would be, if everyone was completely free to do anything. No laws, no restrictions. Only few would survive and only few would be free.

Øsiris wrote:Down with socialism....

Well, it's actually capitalism which will vanquish forever. After feudalism and monarchies lost their power to capitalism, capitalism is to be replaced by socialism. And after many more years, socialism will be replaced by another social system. Try to guess by which. It starts with a "c"

Firecracker048 wrote:well lets here what i gotta say, ehh?
People in democracy=free
socailism/communist dictarotiships=not so free
explain? here:
They are forced to live under an iron fist and literaly have close to 0 free will. explain that

Where did you get that BS from?
Obviously if you say something is a dicatorship you don't have free will. so capitalist dictatorship isn't anything better but obviously you can't imagine that socialism or communism exists without dictatorship.

I think you're doing the same mistake like 99% of uneducated people who say the western world had democracies and the east had communism. That's a statement on the level of a 5 year old kid, i'm not wanting to insult you but point out a massively grave error you're doing. you're mixing up a political system (democracy, dictatorship) with an economical system (communism, capitalism, facism, socialism). Maybe now you'll even tell me that Germany during WWII was socialist, or communist (and just because that was the party name)
Most leaders of socialist countries got corrupted and established totalitarian regimes, how does that make A socialist country a dictatorship???

I'll give you a hint about what the USSR was, it wasn't communist, guess what the third letter stands for?

USA in the cold war wasn't anything better on human rights so don't come here talking about free will or anything (vietnam terror on civilians, discrimination/lynching of blacks and denying their human rights, CIA spying and persecuting people during red scare, witch hunting people who even just sent a bit of money to a trade union, etc.). Neither is it any better today (guantanamo, abu ghraib)

So please keep this thread to the economical issues of the systems and not the political ones (because we're talking about an imaginary country applying it therefore don't relate it to anything that has ever existed unless it's relevant, i.e. don't compare socialist democracy to anything but a few countries of latin america of today, because there was no other)

Apophis The Great wrote:I know that Texas is on the south, at the the west of Louisiane, not to mention Seattle is in Washington D.C.

Apophis, I know you mean well, but you just completely destroyed your credibility with an understandable oversight. There are two Washingtons, the city Washington D.C. (located on the Potomac River between Virginia and Maryland) and the state of Washington, located south of British Colombia, Canada (can't believe I had to check a map to make sure that was right )

Apophis the Grea wrote: ...I HIGHLY DOUBT MANY AMERICANS can do it for france, germany, italy cities and locate them, not even mentionning that nice CNN vid where they asked where Australia was, or maybe it was Iran? dont remember which country it was about, but it was not some Zambia or Bhutan which is hardly easy to locate on the map!!! Just to mention that they didnt even know that the big island in pacific ocean was called Australia...
So before saying those who thinks americans are ignorants are more, at least we know that America is under Canada and above Mexico!!! I KNOW there are intelligent americans, alot of, but the prob IS that they are alot in absolute, but in comparaison to the global population number, in relative, not so many! I'm pretty sure the democrats have LESS ignorants in their ranks, because the bush side isnt only made of those liberal workers who travel around the world, who surely know alot, but this party is made also by alot of ignorants, and no american inhabitant can deny it!!! Who are those ignorants? Those who say Canada s... France and Mexico s..., and who dont even know where are germany or india, finally who think America is their country, and any people with KNOWLEDGE will say, and CANNOT BE DENIED, that USA are Indian's country (not those from India, I mean those who lived in before The thirteen colonies were created).

Every country has it's idiots, or at least people who don't remember stuff. Actually, I think a new show called You Think You're Smarter Than a Fifth Grader? came out, where fifth graders competed with adults in trivia and often won. So yeah, a lot of Americans are ignorant. Blame the school systems. But did you think all 300 million of them would be brilliant? (BTW, I saw a movie similar to that. Some guy said the Berlin Wall was in Afghanistan )

And as for the Native American arguement you threw in at the last minute, there is no going back, so don't dredge up the past in this case (I had US History last year, the part on Native American treatment was an eye-opener, yet not unexpected).

mursai wrote:Everyone has a free will! How do you think would people of Czechoslovakia be able to demonstrate against the invasion of troops from Warsaw Pact if they had no free will?

Was that the protest broken up by the Soviet tanks and troops, or was that another one in Hungary? While we're discussing the right to assembly in countries that call themselves socialist, anyone want to discuss Tienaman's Square?

(Sorry about the spelling)

Tollan Phoenix wrote:

marusai wrote:Everyone has a free will! How do you think would people of Czechoslovakia be able to demonstrate against the invasion of troops from Warsaw Pact if they had no free will?

Was that the protest broken up by the Soviet tanks and troops, or was that another one in Hungary? While we're discussing the right to assembly in countries that call themselves socialist, anyone want to discuss Tienaman's Square?
(Sorry about the spelling)

you're spelling was quite close. i think in latin you'd write it Tienamen square.
The one marusai is speaking about is when Czecho-Slovakia wanted a liberalisation and drew up plans to do so, but then the warsaw pact armies invaded Czecho-Slovakia and forced the government to withdraw the changes.
And thats when the people went out and demostrated agaisnt the tanks.

oh and as i said in my post please could you now keep it on the topic of economical systems and if you use real world examples to portray something be sure to talk about the correct system (i.e. criticize socialist democracy and then comparing it to USSR or China will earn you nothing more than that the others will think of you that you didn't even finish primary school)

The Almighty Xeno wrote:Whoo boy... I should've known any discussion on anything even remotely political would eventually boomerang back to modern politics. Leaning towards a split, so if anyone has something off-old-topic, but on-new-topic to say, go ahead and say it.

urogard wrote:(i.e. criticize socialist democracy and then comparing it to USSR or China will earn you nothing more than that the others will think of you that you didn't even finish primary school)

Lol, sorry

Yeah, I guess its hard to compare any of the past/modern governments with these things because none of them have pure economic values (ie. Americans are considered capitalist, but have socialist initiatives such as Social Security).

Anyways, if I had to choose between a pure socialist realm and a pure capitalist realm (no government mentioned because I 'm pretty sure Karl Marx said pure socialism would have no need for government. Unless I misinterpreted, for which I apologize), I'd probably choose socialist. Then, I could do the minimum work and still have the same benefits as everyone else. And in saying that, I just pointed out a flaw in the system, I believe.

Tollan Phoenix wrote:

mursai wrote:Everyone has a free will! How do you think would people of Czechoslovakia be able to demonstrate against the invasion of troops from Warsaw Pact if they had no free will?

Was that the protest broken up by the Soviet tanks and troops, or was that another one in Hungary? While we're discussing the right to assembly in countries that call themselves socialist, anyone want to discuss Tienaman's Square?

(Sorry about the spelling)

It was actually the army, which assembled first. Then a bunch of people went out on the streets and started throwing bricks and molotov coctails at them. It was quite peaceful, "only" 13 people have died. Usually in some accidents, because the troops havent fought them at all. If you compare it to how many people die in car accidents alone it makes it a negligible number.

@ Tollan and urogard
It's called TIAN-AN-MEN
Tiananmen