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Apophis The Great wrote:Hmmm capitalist giving something? I think of more and more poverty happening in capitalist countries, USA for example: you're rich? you become richer. You not rich/poor? You will be poorer

Regarding USA: this is because it's a partially socialist country (like Ireland). They are poor, because they have socialist minds and live in the socialist part of this. That's their choice. If they'd only wanted to change something in their lives!

Dont say I'm noob in economy, I'm in eco section in high school, I also watch economic things on tv, real eco ones, not fake onez

High shool, huh? Ok. I blame it on your lack of education, age, noobiness and naiveness then (I'm MASTER of ECONOMICS in the field of banking and finance holding a UNIVERSITY DEGREE also interested in socio-cybernetics, chaos theory and systems).
Good, that you keep learning and don't ya worry, you'll eventually grow up.
And read that book! Will ya?! (It's not really pro-capitalist book, just explains the problems of so called third world countries)

Why do people in South America mostly want socialism and say STOP to capitalism if capitalism is so good for development?
Heh

Because they're brainwashed or/and don't know what capitalism really is. (Same applies to many ppl in more capitalist countries ) Those who know would do anything to come here (and I know what I'm talking about. One of my best friends is from Venezuela and has that problem herself)

Why do in my country (here I know more than all of you combined so you cant saay anythin :p) capitalists make grow unemployment percents while socialists do OPPOSITE? Why do inequalities pops up when capitalists are here? Why are there over 7% of us population (more on the way if capitalists win elections, not to mention riots which will happen if, that shows how much capitalism is "good" and appreciated for his good actions) that lives under poverty line in a TOP 5 RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD?

And what country is it?

Do you actually believe capitalism will make 21st century better? Africa/Asia getting off drama they in?

HELL NO

Time to switch in SOCIAL DEMOCRATISM before the poor declare war on richs because of unloyal and illogical total inequalities!

I don't believe. This is not a matter of faith but a hard, proven facts. I KNOW.
Btw: good choice of color


Patrick:

i was just stating that people are not brainwashed by capitalism not to help they just do nothing of the own free will.

Yiz sure 'bout that? How many times last week have you been approached by Enable/Oxfam/Concern/Goal crowd? It happens to me twice a day in average. If there was no ppl willing to give money for charities out there, they wouldn't be doing this.
Ppl living in capitalism can afford to give to charities, in socialism you are too poor to do this.

Corran Horn wrote:

Apophis The Great wrote:Hmmm capitalist giving something? I think of more and more poverty happening in capitalist countries, USA for example: you're rich? you become richer. You not rich/poor? You will be poorer

Regarding USA: this is because it's a partially socialist country (like Ireland). They are poor, because they have socialist minds and live in the socialist part of this. That's their choice. If they'd only wanted to change something in their lives!

Dont say I'm noob in economy, I'm in eco section in high school, I also watch economic things on tv, real eco ones, not fake onez

High shool, huh? Ok. I blame it on your lack of education, age, noobiness and naiveness then (I'm MASTER of ECONOMICS in the field of banking and finance holding a UNIVERSITY DEGREE also interested in socio-cybernetics, chaos theory and systems).
Good, that you keep learning and don't ya worry, you'll eventually grow up.
And read that book! Will ya?! (It's not really pro-capitalist book, just explains the problems of so called third world countries)

Why do people in South America mostly want socialism and say STOP to capitalism if capitalism is so good for development?
Heh

Because they're brainwashed or/and don't know what capitalism really is. (Same applies to many ppl in more capitalist countries ) Those who know would do anything to come here (and I know what I'm talking about. One of my best friends is from Venezuela and has that problem herself)

Why do in my country (here I know more than all of you combined so you cant saay anythin :p) capitalists make grow unemployment percents while socialists do OPPOSITE? Why do inequalities pops up when capitalists are here? Why are there over 7% of us population (more on the way if capitalists win elections, not to mention riots which will happen if, that shows how much capitalism is "good" and appreciated for his good actions) that lives under poverty line in a TOP 5 RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD?

And what country is it?

Do you actually believe capitalism will make 21st century better? Africa/Asia getting off drama they in?

HELL NO

Time to switch in SOCIAL DEMOCRATISM before the poor declare war on richs because of unloyal and illogical total inequalities!

I don't believe. This is not a matter of faith but a hard, proven facts. I KNOW.
Btw: good choice of color


Patrick:

i was just stating that people are not brainwashed by capitalism not to help they just do nothing of the own free will.

Yiz sure 'bout that? How many times last week have you been approached by Enable/Oxfam/Concern/Goal crowd? It happens to me twice a day in average. If there was no ppl willing to give money for charities out there, they wouldn't be doing this.
Ppl living in capitalism can afford to give to charities, in socialism you are too poor to do this.

Well you know you can have the highest diplom dispo on earth that couldn't prevent eventually to be biased/sided. I believe there are ppl with same diploms that you and who would agree with me, does it make them noobish? No

If you ever think by growing up 'ill be another capitalist kisser you're very wrong. Actually most of capitalists economists and politics I heard/read/saw contradicted themsevels and didnt sound good to me.

LoL yeah you right capitalism THE SOLUTION SOLVES ALL other systems for noobs brainwashed and create chaos (wait...pinochet was capitalist and brought by americans )


Pssst


Sorry but when you said hitler=socialist makes your degrees totally useless & alot more bad than if u were diplomless.

And what country is it?

You are "MASTER of ECONOMICS in the field of banking and finance holding a UNIVERSITY DEGREE also interested in socio-cybernetics, chaos theory and systems" you should recognize it, it's a rome treaty europe country

Corran Horn wrote:Patrick:

i was just stating that people are not brainwashed by capitalism not to help they just do nothing of the own free will.

Yiz sure 'bout that? How many times last week have you been approached by Enable/Oxfam/Concern/Goal crowd? It happens to me twice a day in average. If there was no ppl willing to give money for charities out there, they wouldn't be doing this.
Ppl living in capitalism can afford to give to charities, in socialism you are too poor to do this.

why do people think im still going on about socialism. yeah i get the same, cant go near graffton street without them, but think this if people really gave enough would they need to hassle people for their money?

i am all for capitalism, survival of the fittest, you either make money or you starve. welfare, charities, all that should go. why sold the better able be stuck carry the rest


how many times has this forum debated left versus right? cap versus com?

Heads up, I'm pretty sure Apophis is from France.

Correct me if I'm wrong, just remember the little geography quiz you gave me.

pops, poor people get richer. In-fact to aid me, when in santa fe NM, i organized a movement that when looking for cheap labor ignored the illegal immigrants and went for homeless guys.

However, capitalism is quite good for economies, while indeed the rich get richer quickly, you'd have a hell of a time taking it from them anyway. Look at russia for example, when the revolution happened the boyars went up and left and now their decendants still make money off the lands they own in russia, france and other places they fled.

how many times has this forum debated left versus right? cap versus com?

Meh, usually 'tis a different person arguing for the commies each time.

@Apophis The Great, you may have missed my posts, but I really would like some answers - to fully understand your position.

Apophis The Great wrote:Well you know you can have the highest diplom dispo on earth that couldn't prevent eventually to be biased/sided. I believe there are ppl with same diploms that you and who would agree with me, does it make them noobish? No

I would agree here but remember... you opened the door -
"Dont say I'm noob in economy, I'm in eco section in high school, I also watch economic things on tv, real eco ones, not fake onez"

Apophis The Great wrote:If you ever think by growing up 'ill be another capitalist kisser you're very wrong. Actually most of capitalists economists and politics I heard/read/saw contradicted themselves and didn’t sound good to me.

If you would give some examples... I still don't understand your "french/italian capitalist failures" comment.

As for being a capitalist kisser... don't worry... I keep a good distance from you cootie laden commies

LoL yeah you right capitalism THE SOLUTION SOLVES ALL other systems for noobs brainwashed and create chaos (wait...pinochet was capitalist and brought by americans

Capitalism does not solve all - but (imho) It is better than communism and socialism.

Sorry but when you said hitler=socialist makes your degrees totally useless & alot more bad than if u were diplomless.

Erm... What party was Hitler head of?
He may have ended up Fascist, but his part was Socialist.

Patrick wrote:but think this if people really gave enough would they need to hassle people for their money?

In theory it is a wonderful idea. I don't know how much community service you have done (probably a great deal)... but in practice i've found it allot harder.
It breaks down as soon as one person plays the scruge or leech.

i am all for capitalism, survival of the fittest, you either make money or you starve. welfare, charities, all that should go. why sold the better able be stuck carry the rest

If I ever turn atheist... i'll support it for that reason... though I don't believe the starvation bit; there will always be those who simply cannot subsist on their own, and do not have the family, neighbors, or friends to keep them afloat regardless of the economic system.

The Xeno wrote:

Patrick wrote:i am all for capitalism, survival of the fittest, you either make money or you starve. welfare, charities, all that should go. why sold the better able be stuck carry the rest

If I ever turn atheist... i'll support it for that reason... though I don't believe the starvation bit; there will always be those who simply cannot subsist on their own, and do not have the family, neighbors, or friends to keep them afloat regardless of the economic system.

Social Darwanism and laisse-faire right there.

Tollan Phoenix wrote:Social Darwanism and laisse-faire right there.

Yup.
I would like to think that I would cause a great deal of mayhem were I no longer concerned with the well-being of my fellow man/women - Get to put my weapons to use.

------------------------------------------


But that is for another topic: "What would you do as a nihilist"

Agapooka wrote:Anyways, let's not go on about Hitler, shall we? Ya bunch of Hitler addicts (I remember the days when half the threads ended up becomming arguments about Hitler <.<)

There are statistics somewhere for those zainey "mathers.":

Hold a conversation long enough and eventually it will lead to Hitler. For some reason he is everyones favorite diversion somehow.

Well to make it clear.
South America were the pros of capitalism.
I recently had two Salvadorian students coming at my high school to talk bout their country, they were from middle class, so they wouldnt see rich ppl as evil.
They explained us it's liberal democracy (your paradize in other words lmao) and also told us how country is. 90% of population can JUST subsist each day and have sometimes not enough to feed.
Gangsta are everywhere BECAUSE of this. They steal money of everyone, in each street they are, why do they do that? For subsisting, with their own ways, dont even DARE to say they are like mafiosi who roll in Mercedes and Lincoln TownCar and take money off owners of restaurants. Not same at all. Are they brainwashed to want it to end? No. Would they elect ANOTHER capitalist? NO. Why? Because he would do SAME. Do they want to still live like that? NO!
Not only from Salvador, most of south america is like that.
Chavez for example, you can say he's evil. But do u think previous capitalist prez brought FREE HEALTH CENTERS to the most poor places? HELL NO!!!
Capitalism best example in the world, according to me, is South Africa.
One one hand you have ULTRA rich people who hide from rest of pop who's even poorer than in Salvador I believe, behind big walls etc...would it happen if majority of pop WAS RESPECTED DECENTLY HAS HUMAN BEINGS? NO!
So before pointing good eco results capitalism does, I know it does, cheaper prices because of fabrication in Korea and Taiwan...but, do you EVER think of people in your own countries who did these things before delocalisation? No, they have no work. Would capitalists care of them? ROFL I'd say! Think in personal way, it's also bad, if a country has tons of poor people God knows what would happen...The misery will bring worse ppl in presidence, because people are fed up of always same people benefitting and all rest living with no respect.

Tollan phoenix you're right. It's france. It's prefect example. We are a rich country. Riots happend in nov 2005. Why? Because police doesnt respect people, and of course also coz Politicians dont give a rat of suburbs and Countrymen. Dont say I dont know what I talk about I live there and know stuff I've to know.

Do you like how Salvador, South Africa and such countries are? Would you like to live in a country ruled by your beloved mates from allmighty capitalism? I think no.

I wait your reactions

And Xeno I WAS 100% SURE EVEN IF I SAID I WAS SOCIAL DEMOCRAT AND STATED I WASNT FOR COMMUNISM SOMEONE WOULD DO THE MISTAKE

Hitler? Socialist? Dont make me laugh!
What do you think NATIONAL-socialism means?
That was for bringing people in his side, he hated socialsits, communists and even ppl from center, would a TRUE socialist be so? ROFL NO OF COURSE PSSST

Social Democratism is new era. You all say good things of capitalisms, state bad things too, you know nothing is perfect.
What have you against social democratism? Eh?
There is NOTHING against it because it takes GOOD things from socialism and GOOD things from capitalism, sorta like a the best from both sides.

They explained us it's liberal democracy (your paradize in other words lmao) and also told us how country is. 90% of population can JUST subsist each day and have sometimes not enough to feed.

You do know El Salvador's history right?
They were a poor nation to begin with, suffered a twelve year civil war with losses of approxomantly 74,000 that ended less than sixteen years ago in 1992.
Then... just around the end of that civil war, the coffee crop, a primary staple of the nation, fell through the floor in price, sending the Gov. scrambling.

Keeping such factors in mind, the 40% poverty and 4% extreme poverty do not strike me as a terrible reflection on capitalism... their GDP is growing, they are on the right track... just not moving very fast at all.

As for the crime and gangs... I would have found chavez's nation to be a better example.

Tollan phoenix you're right. It's france. It's prefect example. We are a rich country. Riots happend in nov 2005. Why? Because police doesnt respect people, and of course also coz Politicians dont give a rat of suburbs and Countrymen. Dont say I dont know what I talk about I live there and know stuff I've to know.

But France isn't capitalist...?

And Xeno I WAS 100% SURE EVEN IF I SAID I WAS SOCIAL DEMOCRAT AND STATED I WASNT FOR COMMUNISM SOMEONE WOULD DO THE MISTAKE Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I still don't understand what a social democrat is;
It sounds to me like limited socialism - wherin the state takes control of the means of production to 'insure' proper distribution. e.g. Sweden

The Xeno wrote:

They explained us it's liberal democracy (your paradize in other words lmao) and also told us how country is. 90% of population can JUST subsist each day and have sometimes not enough to feed.

You do know El Salvador's history right?
They were a poor nation to begin with, suffered a twelve year civil war with losses of approxomantly 74,000 that ended less than sixteen years ago in 1992.
Then... just around the end of that civil war, the coffee crop, a primary staple of the nation, fell through the floor in price, sending the Gov. scrambling.

Keeping such factors in mind, the 40% poverty and 4% extreme poverty do not strike me as a terrible reflection on capitalism... their GDP is growing, they are on the right track... just not moving very fast at all.

As for the crime and gangs... I would have found chavez's nation to be a better example.

Tollan phoenix you're right. It's france. It's prefect example. We are a rich country. Riots happend in nov 2005. Why? Because police doesnt respect people, and of course also coz Politicians dont give a rat of suburbs and Countrymen. Dont say I dont know what I talk about I live there and know stuff I've to know.

But France isn't capitalist...?

And Xeno I WAS 100% SURE EVEN IF I SAID I WAS SOCIAL DEMOCRAT AND STATED I WASNT FOR COMMUNISM SOMEONE WOULD DO THE MISTAKE Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I still don't understand what a social democrat is;
It sounds to me like limited socialism - wherin the state takes control of the means of production to 'insure' proper distribution. e.g. Sweden

-I know there was a civil war, but I didnt say such things happend only on salvador, it happens on most of south america, and these countries were under capitalisms regimes installed by CIA in 70's

-France WAS NOT capitalist. Until 2004. But they decided to make it more & more capitalist. The candidate to election Sarkozy is called the "american" in many anglo-saxons papers, that says all

-Sweden and north europe are most performants countries in Europe, is it a prob to be like them?
Capitalists & Socialists in France say they are the most successful countries in Europe, yeah both agrees on it

Apophis The Great wrote:I know there was a civil war, but I didnt say such things happend only on salvador, it happens on most of south america, and these countries were under capitalisms regimes installed by CIA in 70's

....?
I hardly think a few dictators can qualify as capitalist regimes... and in any case, the soviets would have doubtless been curtailing any economic success by their own actions.

Apophis The Great wrote:France WAS NOT capitalist. Until 2004. But they decided to make it more & more capitalist. The candidate to election Sarkozy is called the "american" in many anglo-saxons papers, that says all

... and they still aren't capitalist. I think most would agree that the recent problems are not as a result of the new capitalist policies, but are rather the tail end of the socialist reforms that are being phased out.

Sweden and north europe are most performants countries in Europe, is it a prob to be like them? Rolling Eyes
Capitalists & Socialists in France say they are the most successful countries in Europe, yeah both agrees on it

Sweden has greatly lessened it's socialist policies after their economy tanked prior 1990. Since then, they have privatized a great deal.... and we will see what happens in the future.

The Xeno wrote:

Apophis The Great wrote:I know there was a civil war, but I didnt say such things happend only on salvador, it happens on most of south america, and these countries were under capitalisms regimes installed by CIA in 70's

....?
I hardly think a few dictators can qualify as capitalist regimes... and in any case, the soviets would have doubtless been curtailing any economic success by their own actions.

CIA (real life one lol) brought them in, so I doubt they were anything else than capitalists, because they were put here to prevent from any communism.

Oh btw for france thing, most of the guys from suburbs who did riots (I believe 60-70% of them voted which is total exclusivity, but a result of gov politics) voted massively for the socialist candidate or social-democratic-center candidate...Strange eh the close-capitalist one is third quite far away...
Not to mention if he wins, we even fear of a CIVIL WAR coming on, if socialists pass, well nothing planned at all

It's midnight here and I'm knackered, so I'll just answer this:

Apophis The Great wrote:-I know there was a civil war, but I didnt say such things happend only on salvador, it happens on most of south america, and these countries were under capitalisms regimes installed by CIA in 70's

Read the book first, then post about those countries. Xeno, you read it too, cos you're falling into the same trap Apophis is in.

-France WAS NOT capitalist. Until 2004. But they decided to make it more & more capitalist. The candidate to election Sarkozy is called the "american" in many anglo-saxons papers, that says all

still don't know what is "capitalist" in your opinion. Imo France has NEVER been capitalist.

-Sweden and north europe are most performants countries in Europe, is it a prob to be like them?
Capitalists & Socialists in France say they are the most successful countries in Europe, yeah both agrees on it

?????????????

GDP growth rate, 1991-2005 average:

Data available : 155 countries
1 Equatorial Guinea 33.0%
2 China 10.1%
3 Myanmar (Burma) 9.0%
4 Cambodia 7.8%
5 Viet Nam 7.6%
6 Qatar 7.4%
7 Chad 7.1%
8 Ireland 6.5%
8 Kuwait 6.5%
8 Maldives 6.5%
8 Mozambique 6.5%
12 Singapore 6.4%
(...)
43 Luxembourg 4.5%
(...)
58 Turkey 4.0%
60 Cyprus 3.9%
61 El Salvador 3.8%
(...)
68 Poland 3.6%
(...)
80 Australia 3.3%
81 Albania 3.2%
(...)
81 Norway 3.2%
(...)
90 Greece 3.0%
90 Iceland 3.0%
(...)
90 Spain 3.0%
90 United States 3.0%
(...)
108 United Kingdom 2.4%
(...)
113 Netherlands 2.3%
(...)
117 Austria 2.2%
(...)
117 Denmark 2.2%
117 Finland 2.2%
117 Portugal 2.2%
117 Sweden 2.2%
(...)
127 Belgium 2.0%
127 Hungary 2.0%
(...)
133 France 1.7% Check full list, BANGLADESH and PAKISTAN are higher!!!
136 Germany 1.6%
(...)
138 Czech Republic 1.4%
140 Italy 1.3%
140 Japan 1.3%
(...)
144 Switzerland 1.0%


Full list here: http://www.dataranking.com/table.cgi?LG=e&TP=ne02-4